OT: RIAA: It's 'Illegal' to Rip Your Own CDs to Your Own Computer

R

Red Henk

Beamguy said:
This appears to be a new policy of the RIAA - and they have not yet had time
to update their website. They go into more detail
elsewhere, but here it is from straight from their webpages...

http://www.riaa.com/faq.php

11. How is downloading music different from copying a personal CD?

Record companies have never objected to someone making a copy of a CD for
their own personal use. We want fans to enjoy the music
they bought legally. But both copying CDs to give to friends and downloading
music illegally rob the people who created that music
of compensation for their work. When record companies are deprived of
critical revenue, they are forced to lay off employees, drop
artists from their rosters, and sign fewer bands. That's bad news for the
music industry, but ultimately bad news for fans as well.
We all benefit from a vibrant music industry committed to nurturing the next
generation of talent.

This sentence make me laugh--
"But both copying CDs to give to friends and downloading
music illegally rob the people who created that music
of compensation for their work."

The record labels are not creators. The true creators are the artists,
and they normally get very little from the price, that the person who
buys the DC, pays. Does anyone know what the percentage breakdown of how
the revenue made from sale of a record, is distributed. I'll bet that
the artist gets no more than 5% tops and that get eaten up expenses that
charged to the artist. It's only the superstar artists who actually make
any money on sales of records.
 
T

Titus Pullo

HeyBub said:
Uh, the "Gestapo" was a European thing.

Apparently the RIAA read a history book and learned a few things.
The US operates under the rule of contract: that is, a willing buyer and a
willing seller agreeing to terms of a transaction. We take a dim view of
thieves.

Often we shoot them. Sometimes we shoot a pre-thief.

**** the RIAA. I'm not a thief. Once I pay for the thing, its mine and I can
do what I want with it. The RIAA is sealing their own doom. Sooner or later,
musicians will cut these greedy cocksuckers out of the picture and sell
their product DRM free, right to the consumer.
 
B

bb

The Ghost In The Machine said:
No, just confusion of the issue. One cannot equate
ripping songs for personal use with putting them on a
high-bandwidth server and advertising their availability.

And from the Judge in the Jammie Thomas case, simply making the songs
*available* - even if nobody downloaded any - is illegal.
 
C

caver1

bb said:
And from the Judge in the Jammie Thomas case, simply making the songs
*available* - even if nobody downloaded any - is illegal.


If you look at the transcript of the case here it
might surprise you. The RIAA is arguing that
Jeffery Howell actually ripped his cds to mp3s on
his computer to share with his wife. Yes they are
in a share folder.
Imagine that sharing with his wife. I don't
understand I always charge my wife to listen to my
music. How else do you think I get my drinking money?
The nerve of the man.
Don't believe me? Look it up.
caver1
 
C

caver1

Alias said:
It's a Spanish thing I guess, then. Read about it here:

http://todoscontraelcanon.es/ (In Spanish)

Alias



Canada used to but I think they stopped in the
last year. Here in the US any blank music media or
non computer burners, cassette decks, tape decks,
etc , part of the sale price is a royalty paid to
the recording industry.
caver1
 
B

bb

caver1 said:
If you look at the transcript of the case here it might surprise you.

Got a link to that? I found the UPI & WP articles and the engadet updates,
but not the transcript.
 
B

bb

caver1 said:
If you look at the transcript of the {Jammie?} case here it might surprise
you.

found 'em:

Jury Instructions found here:
http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/2007/10/jury-instructions-in-virgin-v-thomas.html

And the debate over it:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...ruction-as-capitol-v-thomas-wraps-up.html?rel

<quote>Judge Davis amended the instruction to say that the "act of making
available for electronic distribution... violates the copyright owner's
exclusive copyright."

The current case is a extension of that instruction. The RIAA is suing
Jeffery Howell over making ripped MP3s available on a shared drive. It's
not clear whether that is over a home network or the bigger internet or to
who.

If, as you say, it's over a home network and with his wife - the RIAA really
has driven over a cliff.
 
B

bb

caver1 said:
If you look at the transcript of the case here it might surprise you. The
RIAA is arguing that Jeffery Howell actually ripped his cds to mp3s on his
computer to share with his wife. Yes they are in a share folder.

ok, my last post on this topic. (maybe!)

Caver1, I was confused when you said "Transcript of the case" - that's the
Jammie Thomas case as the Howell case has not yet gone to court. What I
think you meant was the Howell Plaintiff's Brief - there is a link to that
here:

http://www.tenreasonswhy.com/weblog/archives/2007/12/unbelievably_st_1.html

The huge word here is "KaZaA," as in the KaZaA shared folder. It not really
about the ripping CDs to MP3s, it's about the sharing to the world those
songs. If Howell really put 2000+ songs on the net with KaZaA, I think he's
toast.
 
S

Stephan Rose

Canada used to but I think they stopped in the last year. Here in the US
any blank music media or non computer burners, cassette decks, tape
decks, etc , part of the sale price is a royalty paid to the recording
industry.

That is ridiculous...seeing how out of a stack of 50 cds I might use
*one* for actual music...and seeing how if I do, it's songs from Japanese
artist which have absolutely nothing to do with the RIAA.

I don't see how legally a royalty can be charged on something just for
the possibility that someone *might* use it for music.

Don't worry RIAA, I'm not going to pirate your precious little Britney
Spears. Wouldn't listen to her if you paid me to...

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®äº‹æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®äº‹å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
G

Gilgamesh

Yes, but I thought I had read somewhere that region coding is illegal
in Australia (that is, the dvd readers sold there play anything,
regardless of region).

That's correct. That allows us to buy DVDs from any region in the world and
play them in our local units.
But region coding is not the same as making a backup copy.
 
A

Anteaus

:

That's correct. That allows us to buy DVDs from any region in the world and
play them in our local units.

....although in areas with region-coding, particularly those with a region
other than one, it creates a situation where the consumer is actually
better-off downloading a pirate DivX/XViD copy than buying a genuine DVD one.
Perhaps the Fat Cats have yet to realise that to some extent they are
creating the piracy problem by way of their own malpractices.

Makes me wonder if I could get away with selling software which was designed
to stop working if the computer's locale was changed, such that I could
demand a repayment of royalties from anyone who emigrated.
 
D

dennis@home

That is ridiculous...seeing how out of a stack of 50 cds I might use
*one* for actual music...and seeing how if I do, it's songs from Japanese
artist which have absolutely nothing to do with the RIAA.

You have the wrong end of the stick.
The royalties are added to non computer disks, its the same in the UK.
This is why audio recorders were chipped to allow users to buy the cheap,
royalty free, computer disks.
I don't see how legally a royalty can be charged on something just for
the possibility that someone *might* use it for music.

Its in the law so it legal.
I don't see how you can keep saying laws are illegal.
 
S

Stephan Rose

You have the wrong end of the stick.
The royalties are added to non computer disks, its the same in the UK.
This is why audio recorders were chipped to allow users to buy the
cheap, royalty free, computer disks.

"non-computer disks"?

Ok, could you please explain what you mean by non computer disks?

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®äº‹æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®äº‹å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
C

caver1

bb said:
found 'em:

Jury Instructions found here:
http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/2007/10/jury-instructions-in-virgin-v-thomas.html


And the debate over it:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...ruction-as-capitol-v-thomas-wraps-up.html?rel


<quote>Judge Davis amended the instruction to say that the "act of
making available for electronic distribution... violates the copyright
owner's exclusive copyright."

The current case is a extension of that instruction. The RIAA is suing
Jeffery Howell over making ripped MP3s available on a shared drive.
It's not clear whether that is over a home network or the bigger
internet or to who.

If, as you say, it's over a home network and with his wife - the RIAA
really has driven over a cliff.



This case against Jeffery Howell was against him
sharing over the internet. Howell was wrong.
In the RIAA's case the bring up sharing with his
wife and making your own copies for your own use
and state that they believe that they they are
also illegal but only sue him for what they know
they can win.
Howell was definitely wrong. But if you look at
the rest of the statements you can see where the
RIAA is heading.
Look at the light that the Motley fool sheds an
the recording industry.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/01/02/were-all-thieves-to-the-riaa.aspx
caver1
 
H

HeyBub

Darth said:
I don't care if he's MI5, CIA, Mossad, ISI, the Emperor's Hand, or
some reptilian humanoid from the planrt Zartan (just kidding about
reptilian himanoids). I own my CDs and DVDs. I bought them with my
hard earned money, and dammit, I'm gonna protect my investments by
making back-up copies for my own personal use. As long as there is
still a Constitution and a Bill of Rights, ain't no corporate neo-
fascist gonna tell me otherwise.

You can't make copies in jail. Or bankrupt.

You bought the medium, you did not but unfettered rights to the
intellectual, creative, contents of the media. Ownership of the song or
program or whatever's ON the media reside elsewhere. You may legally access
this content only under the terms of a contract willingly entered between
you and the creator (or his agent).
 
C

caver1

bb said:
ok, my last post on this topic. (maybe!)

Caver1, I was confused when you said "Transcript of the case" - that's
the Jammie Thomas case as the Howell case has not yet gone to court.
What I think you meant was the Howell Plaintiff's Brief - there is a
link to that here:

http://www.tenreasonswhy.com/weblog/archives/2007/12/unbelievably_st_1.html

The huge word here is "KaZaA," as in the KaZaA shared folder. It not
really about the ripping CDs to MP3s, it's about the sharing to the
world those songs. If Howell really put 2000+ songs on the net with
KaZaA, I think he's toast.



I agree that I used the wrong point to insert
transcript. I was thinking of all legal papers
filed as part of the case. Once the trial is over
then the briefs are part of the transcript.
Yes Howell is toast. But as I said earlier look at
the whole argument of the RIAA and see where they
are heading.
Plus it has already gone to trail. Aug.24. 2007
RIAA was rewarded Summary judgment against Howell
in Arizona Federal court.
caver1
 
C

caver1

Anteaus said:
:



...although in areas with region-coding, particularly those with a region
other than one, it creates a situation where the consumer is actually
better-off downloading a pirate DivX/XViD copy than buying a genuine DVD one.
Perhaps the Fat Cats have yet to realise that to some extent they are
creating the piracy problem by way of their own malpractices.

Makes me wonder if I could get away with selling software which was designed
to stop working if the computer's locale was changed, such that I could
demand a repayment of royalties from anyone who emigrated.


The "Fat Cats" ,as you call them, are litigating a
loosing battle over an industry that will die
unless it changes its business model. But they
would rather fight than change.
caver1
 
C

caver1

HeyBub said:
You can't make copies in jail. Or bankrupt.

You bought the medium, you did not but unfettered rights to the
intellectual, creative, contents of the media. Ownership of the song or
program or whatever's ON the media reside elsewhere. You may legally access
this content only under the terms of a contract willingly entered between
you and the creator (or his agent).


There is no contract when you buy music or a
movie. There is only law covering what you can and
cannot do. The Media industry wants to take away
the fair use rights the law has given.
There are contracts with software but even those
cannot take away certain rights that the law has
granted.
caver1
 
J

jim

(from http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9839897-7.html?tag=nefd.top )

January 3, 2008 9:26 PM PST
RIAA shreds Washington Post story in debate
Posted by Greg Sandoval

An executive with the music industry's lobbying group engaged in a verbal
sparring match on Thursday with the Washington Post columnist who alleges
that the organization is trying to outlaw the practice of copying CDs to a
computer.

Here was a golden opportunity for Cary Sherman to declare once and for all
that copying CDs for personal use is lawful. He stopped short of that,
saying that copyright law is too complex to make such sweeping statements.
National Public Radio hosted in on-air debate between Marc Fisher, the Post
columnist, and Cary Sherman, president of the Recording Industry Association
of America (RIAA). The way I saw it, Fisher was ill advised to debate. What
was exposed was a reporter who doesn't want to admit to making a mistake and
has dug his heels in. Meanwhile, according to Sherman, Fisher has misled
consumers.

Early in the debate, Fisher was on the defense as Sherman picked apart his
story, which appeared on Sunday. In the piece Fisher quoted from a court
document, filed in the case of an Arizona man accused by the RIAA of illegal
file sharing. Fisher wrote that the quotes demonstrated that the lobbying
group was now challenging the right of music fans to rip CDs to their
computers.

Copying CDs to a computer or an iPod is common all over the world and if
Fisher's claims were correct, the RIAA would be painting millions of people
as criminals. The story became national news and scores of publications
repeated Fisher's claims.

But as numerous bloggers and copyright experts have noted, the quotes cited
by Fisher are incomplete. Fisher wrote that the RIAA had argued in the brief
that MP3 files created from legally bought CDs are "unauthorized copies" and
violate the law.

"The Post picked up one sentence in a 21-page brief and then picked the part
of the sentence about ripping CDs onto the computer," Sherman said during
the radio show. "(The Post) simply ignored the part of the sentence about
putting them into a shared folder."

The "shared folder" omission is at the center of what's wrong with Fisher's
story. Anyone who reads the brief can see that the RIAA says over and over
again what it considers to be illegal activity: the distribution of music
files via peer-to-peer networks.

Fisher didn't address this issue during the debate. Instead he moved on to
testimony given by Jennifer Pariser, a Sony BMG lawyer, who said during an
earlier court case: "when an individual makes a copy of a song for himself,
I suppose we can say he stole a song."

This is when Sherman really went to work on Fisher's story.

"The Sony person who (Fisher) relies on actually misspoke in that trial,"
Sherman said. "I know because I asked her after stories started appearing.
It turns out that she had misheard the question. She thought that this was a
question about illegal downloading when it was actually a question about
ripping CDs. That is not the position of Sony BMG. That is not the position
of that spokesperson. That is not the position of the industry."

Sherman said that other reporters and bloggers had called about Pariser's
quotes and chose not to write about them after learning she had erred.

Why wasn't Fisher offered this information? Well, he would have been had he
spoken to anyone at the RIAA, Sherman said.

Prior to writing the story Fisher called the RIAA for a statement once and
left a message, according to Sherman. When the RIAA's spokesman returned the
call two hours later, he missed Fisher. But Fisher never called back to get
the RIAA's statement even though the story wasn't published until nine days
later.

It's customary for journalists to give the subject of a story a chance to be
quoted--especially when they're slamming them.

Again, Fisher declined to address Sherman's accusations. He moved on to
statements that appear on the RIAA's Web site, which he claims show that the
group considers copying music to a computer as unlawful.

But Sherman suggested that Fisher was once again being selective with the
RIAA's statements. Sherman showed the location on the site where the RIAA
says that people can typically copy music for personal use without any
problems.

"They go on to equivocate and say, 'Well, usually it won't raise concerns if
you go ahead and transfer legally obtained music to your computer,'" Fisher
said during the debate, "but they won't go all the way and say that it's a
legal right."

"Not a single (legal) case has ever been brought (by the RIAA against
someone for copying music for personal use)," Sherman said. "Not a single
claim has ever been made."

In the final analysis, this is really a story about journalism ethics more
than it is about technology. Fisher is a respected journalist who probably
should remember one of the first things they teach cub reporters: when
someone challenges you over a story, it's smart to think of worst-case
scenarios.

Reporters are reminded to ask themselves whether they could defend
everything they did during the reporting and writing process if ever sued?
If the RIAA ever took the Post to court over the issue, Fisher might have to
explain why he omitted important sections of the RIAA's legal brief. He
would have to justify not trying harder to get RIAA comment.

If a reporter's work doesn't stand up, the typical remedy at most media
organizations is to issue a correction. That's what the Post should do in
this case.

Greg Sandoval is a former Washington Post staff writer.
 
T

The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly

HeyBub said:
Contracts trump "fair use." If you agree (EULA) to not copy the CD, then
"fair use" flys out the window. But wait, it's worse.

I strongly suspect that this would be considered unconscionable and
therefore not hold up in court.
If a company includes some sort of control over the product, and you
circumvent that control, you're guilty of violating the DMCA (Digital
Millenium Copyright Act). Lexmark put a chip in its toner cartridges which
prevented their being refilled (the printer interrogated the chip). A toner
re-fill company (Static Control) reverse-engineered the chip and Lexmark
sued under the DMCA. Lexmark ultimately lost the case and all the appeals,
but it didn't stop them from trying.

My view is that if you want to listen to music on your computer, iPod,
cell-phone, or audio system without bothering the rights of anyone else,
then WRITE AND RECORD YOUR OWN TUNES!

Or, do what I do. When contacted by one of those prissy outfits that wanted
me to pay $35/year for our "music on hold" stuff, I put her on hold for
about a minute, then asked: "Do you recognize that music?"

"No," she replied.

"It's Mozart. Being played by the Soviet National Symphony, a country that
no longer exists. Now answer me this: Just who the **** would you be paying
royalties TO?"

"Never mind," she said.


--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group -
Submit your nomination at the link below:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

View nominations already submitted:
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"Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on
free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the
creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer
rights in the digital age are not frivolous."
- Maura Corbett
 

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