ng etiquette

[jacaranda]

At the moment there is one guy asking for help on video editing and he
has no chance of getting a free program to do what he is asking for.
What is the problem with suggesting 'go to ebay and get a oem copy of
say *ulead video editor*

Why not give those kinds of suggestions via e-mail?

Why disrupt the group?

 

[Ron May]

Ron May wrote:

Not exactly, Ron.
The poster's machine may be very seriously screwed up, as in barely
limping, having been messed up by freeware that he innocently installed.

Now, at a time when the poster is begging for help, this freeware group
is exactly the perfect place to ask. For one thing, people on a
different forum won't be as likely to know the free application that's
wreaked the havoc on his system. And this will be precisely the right
place for someone to suggest a payware solution to get the poster out of
the jam he's in, providing that a free solution isn't available, _and
easily accessible_ (sometimes, the recommended link is dead: I've been
there, too). There are times when a payware solution is dead on-topic
when the job is to extricate one of our participants from the free
quicksand he's mired in. Quick: the guy's drowning.

Richard

You make a compelling case for an original poster to ASK a question in
ACF, and I'll grant there's not a freeware solution for every
conceivable need, but you STILL don't explain why it's necessary to
REPLY in ACF with a $$$ware solution. It can be done OUTSIDE the
newsgroup. You email the poster, letting him/her you're contacting
them out of a well intentioned desire to help rather than trying to
sell them on a product, and make your suggestion there. You post a
reply in ACF asking them to email you fror non-freeware suggestions if
they care to. (And before you bring it up, if the posters rig is so
screwed up he won't get your email or won't be able to email you, he
won't see your $$$ware suggestion in ACF either. Agreed?)

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

You make a compelling case for an original poster to ASK a question in
ACF, and I'll grant there's not a freeware solution for every
conceivable need, but you STILL don't explain why it's necessary to
REPLY in ACF with a $$$ware solution. It can be done OUTSIDE the
newsgroup. You email the poster, letting him/her you're contacting
them out of a well intentioned desire to help rather than trying to
sell them on a product, and make your suggestion there. You post a
reply in ACF asking them to email you fror non-freeware suggestions if
they care to. (And before you bring it up, if the posters rig is so
screwed up he won't get your email or won't be able to email you, he
won't see your $$$ware suggestion in ACF either. Agreed?)

You make good points. But not agreed. The example that I gave wasn't
hypothetical. It was real. The guy was me. But I'm very good at getting
machines and computers to keep going, limping as it were.

I'm coming at you right now on a pretty degraded system.

My solution, which may make everyone happy (?) is to, yes, mention the
solution with payware here, if there's no reasonable fix using freeware.
But keep the verbage about the payware brief -- continue the specifics,
if complicated, by personal email. OK?

Richard

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

My solution, which may make everyone happy (?) is to, yes, mention
the solution with payware here, if there's no reasonable fix using
freeware. But keep the verbage about the payware brief -- continue
the specifics, if complicated, by personal email. OK?

I can't speak for all the folks who are sometimes labeled as "purists",
but I'd have no problem with that. IME, in practice, it never
happens that way, though. Once people start recommending commercial
software and discussing how to use it, those threads go on here, not
migrating to e-mail or appropriate groups. Furthermore, suggesting
that the thread should be migrated leads to the payware advocates
becoming upset and making charges about moderation.

 

[Mike Andrade]

The example that I gave wasn't
hypothetical. It was real. The guy was me.

I'd like to know what freeware hosed your system. I've been
downloading and testing freeware since about 1996 and I've /never/
had a system completely screwed up by freeware.

 

[Nicolaas Hawkins]

Why not give those kinds of suggestions via e-mail?

Why disrupt the group?

Because he can and it's what he does.

 

[Ron May]

You make good points. But not agreed. The example that I gave wasn't
hypothetical. It was real. The guy was me. But I'm very good at getting
machines and computers to keep going, limping as it were.

I'm coming at you right now on a pretty degraded system.

My solution, which may make everyone happy (?) is to, yes, mention the
solution with payware here, if there's no reasonable fix using freeware.
But keep the verbage about the payware brief -- continue the specifics,
if complicated, by personal email. OK?

Richard

I used "hypothetical/anecdotal" to describe the example because it
covered both possibilities. The former was used in case some of the
elements described could have happened but didn't (as in someone
saying after an accident, "I coulda been killed" but they actually
survived.) The latter term was intended to make an observation that,
while it describes your particularly unique experience, those dire
circumstances wouldn't necessarily apply with any great regularity to
the average poster looking for a freeware solution.

Since this is an unmoderated newsgroup, no one can exercise control
over what you decide to post. Having said that, however, I still say
you haven't made the case for the NECESSITY to suggest or recommend
payware solutions in an ACF post when there are many avenues available
to do so outside the newsgroup. As the title of the thread indicates,
it's a matter of "ng etiquette."

 

[Luigi M Bianchi]

I don't think people like luigi understands the concept of "on topic".
It doesn't occur to them that discussion of "shareware" should be in a
"shareware" newsgroup.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I agree with you, but I
object to the 'fundamentalist' screams aroused by the mere mention of
something which is not pure freeware.

Sounds reasonable to me.

/luigi

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

but I object to the 'fundamentalist' screams aroused by the mere
mention of something which is not pure freeware.

Can you point out some specific posts with this "'fundamentalist'
screaming"? I haven't noticed anything I'd characterize that way, and
it seems like a harsh term from someone who started this thread as an
ostensible plea for tolerance.

 

[Ron May]

Can you point out some specific posts with this "'fundamentalist'
screaming"? I haven't noticed anything I'd characterize that way, and
it seems like a harsh term from someone who started this thread as an
ostensible plea for tolerance.

Even the original post was somewhat inflammatory. Luigi said "I don't
consider shareware evil," and "let's not make freeware a religion,"
implying that some in this newsgroup do. I don't recall examples
being given to illustrate either of those.

 

[Why Tea]

Even the original post was somewhat inflammatory. Luigi said "I don't

It seems that we are talking more about political correctness here.

Just look around this forum, there are many freeware worshippers that
can't or won't want to know the existence of anything else. Luigi's
comment was probably blant, but it's precise and direct to the point.

This reminds me of the ("religous") war on text editors of emacs vs vi
- which, by the way, is still going on...

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

Just look around this forum, there are many freeware worshippers
that can't or won't want to know the existence of anything else.

I don't see any of that, but I do see plenty of people who want
alt.comp.freeware to remain on-topic. If people start posting about
web browsers in a group for discussion of newsreaders, people will
also object. And it's not that they worship newsreaders or that they
"can't or won't want to know" about web browsers.

This reminds me of the ("religous") war on text editors of emacs
vs vi - which, by the way, is still going on...

The reasons for that are entirely different. Emacs is an
atrocity.

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

I'd like to know what freeware hosed your system. I've been
downloading and testing freeware since about 1996 and I've /never/
had a system completely screwed up by freeware.

I apologize -- I can't remember which one it was. Probably one of the
metronome programs I was investigating; I don't want to mention names in
case I'm wrong. Note that it didn't hose it completely; and I was able
to get my box back up and running. Sometimes the program that looks most
promising turns out to be the worst-crafted. The opposite is true, too
(just to keep our spirits up).

Richard

 

[Ron May]

It seems that we are talking more about political correctness here.

Just look around this forum, there are many freeware worshippers that
can't or won't want to know the existence of anything else. Luigi's
comment was probably blant, but it's precise and direct to the point.

This reminds me of the ("religous") war on text editors of emacs vs vi
- which, by the way, is still going on...

No, what we have are some people who want to change the newsgroup
from:

alt.comp.freeware

to:

alt.comp.freeware.unless-you-want-to-talk-about-payware

It's not a matter of "political correctness." It's not a matter of
"freeware worshipers." It's not a matter of a "('religious') war."
It's not a matter of "shareware (being) evil." It's not a matter of
"(making) freeware a religion." It's not a matter of "'fundamentalist'
screams aroused by the mere mention of something which is not pure
freeware."

These are all examples of MISCHARACTERIZATION by those who feel that
it ought to be okay to discuss, suggest, recommend, etc., PAYWARE
solutions in a FREEWARE newsgroup and feel offended when someone
rightly points out to them that such posts are OFF TOPIC.

Granted, the responses often lack the proper courtesy, but I put the
initial blame on those who, for example, post a link to shareware or
payware, or justify a recommendation on the basis of "low cost."
Additionally, while you and Luigi haven't quoted examples to back up
your contentions of some people engaging in a sort of jihad, I have
included examples above of the inflammatory rhetoric that each of you
have used in this thread to speak out AGAINST what you feel is
inflammatory rhetoric. I find that somewhat ironic.

Look, shareware, commercial software and freeware peacefully coexist
on all computers I own (or have owned.) I imagine that's the case for
virtually everyone who participates in this newsgroup. For example,
check out the header of this post and you'll see I'm using a payware
version of a newsreader that also comes in a free liteware version. I
upgraded (long ago) because I felt the additional features were worth
it TO ME. Nothing wrong with that. It would be OFF TOPIC, however,
for me to RECOMMEND this version as a response to a post here in ACF.
It would NOT be wrong for me to recommend it in a more appropriate
newsgroup. Get the picture?

Despite assertions to the contrary, it's not the mere mention of
non-freeware in ACF that is going to generate a hostile response.
That does normally happen, though, when someone crosses the line by
saying something like, "I don't know any freeware that will do what
you want, but you could try (insert some payware example here)" and
then provides the link and/or a list of features. Regardless of
motive, intention or rationalization, a post along those lines is
almost guaranteed to draw fire. What else would you, or could you,
reasonably expect?

If you or others don't understand the issue, then I don't know what
else to say.

 

[Why Tea]

Additionally, while you and Luigi haven't quoted examples to back up

your contentions of some people engaging in a sort of jihad, I have
included examples above of the inflammatory rhetoric that each of you
have used in this thread to speak out AGAINST what you feel is
inflammatory rhetoric. I find that somewhat ironic.

Are you serious?

I've had enough and I'm out of here...

 

[Anne Carle]

Message-ID<[email protected]>:



It would be OFF TOPIC, however,
for me to RECOMMEND this version as a response to a post here in ACF.
It would NOT be wrong for me to recommend it in a more appropriate
newsgroup. Get the picture?

Re the above...it would not be unreasonable to suggest freeware but
then mention how the commercial version differs so the reader can more
easily determine whether the freeware meets his needs. There's a fine
line between expounding on the freeware's limitations and going OT,
but if the poster offers more complete information, I think it should
be deemed appropriate.

Anne/OH

 

[Ron May]

Re the above...it would not be unreasonable to suggest freeware but
then mention how the commercial version differs so the reader can more
easily determine whether the freeware meets his needs. There's a fine
line between expounding on the freeware's limitations and going OT,
but if the poster offers more complete information, I think it should
be deemed appropriate.

Anne/OH

It is a fine line. Very often, where there's both a lite and payware
version (Notetab, Agent, Epim and others come to mind) there is also a
web page with a feature comparison chart. I've often posted such a
link when discussing the lite version, and I don't think many would
consider that being off topic. Where the line might get crossed
(IMHO) is when the poster intentionally conveys the message in one way
or another, saying in effect: "Don't bother with the lite version,
order the PRO version instead."

In the first instance, it IS a matter of providing complete
information ("This is what the lite version does and doesn't do.") In
the second instance, it's a matter of touting a payware solution.

 

[The Seabat]

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!

 

[Roger Hunt]

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!

Yea - revolving doors do that to me quite often, or I try to push the
wrong side. hey-ho .....

 

[Luigi M Bianchi]

I guess this very thread is one example of what I tried to point out.
The words I had used were intended (mistakenly, I guess) to raise the
issue in a slightly humorous fashion. Oh well, let's hope there is some
space and energy left to discuss how to run our machine cheaply (oops,
freely).

/luigi