ng etiquette

  • Thread starter Luigi M Bianchi
  • Start date
B

Bob Adkins

In addition we are all looking for the
best software, and sometimes the best software is simply not free, and
sometimes there are no freeware programs of acceptable--let alone
comparable--quality.

Now Luigi! You know we are not looking for the best software. We are
looking for the best Freeware!

In other words, let's not make freeware a religion. Let's try to learn
from each other in an open, tolerant way. We'll consume less bandwidth,
and create a group that is a stronger community.

You must be looking very hard for Freeware vs Shareware arguments here. I
notice only about 1 or 2 per year. In fact, this post is the first argument
I have seen in several months. :)
 
B

Bob Adkins

I take it you mean if someone is seeking an app to perform a certain
function, and AFAIK there is not a freeware version, I should not be able
even to suggest a pay- or share- ware solution.

I think that's an extremely silly and bigoted attitude; it generates heat,
but no light, we don't have to "discuss" it to try to help someone out.

But then I suspect the original post, like so many of the sort, is just a
troll, intended to make mischief, cause dissent and division, use up
bandwidth, and generally get in the way.

And here I am joining in - that's only because I always have to assume a
post of this sort is genuine until I know better

Sadly, that assumption is just about always wrong :~(

You and Luigi are risking lightning bolts from the Freeware Gods. I'm not
standing close to either of yous guys.
 
W

Why Tea

It does not serve, when you can not try the essential functions without
paying the full price.

That's exactly the point - nobody is forcing you, you have the choice.
Perhaps 30% of the shareware do cripple their major functions in some
way to protect their deveopment investment. If you don't like them,
that's fine.
 
D

dszady

Anne said:
Gert van der Kooij wrote


That's right. No discussion about it. This group is for freeware only
and alt.comp.shareware* is for shareware.

I take it you mean if someone is seeking an app to perform a certain
function, and AFAIK there is not a freeware version, I should not be
able
even to suggest a pay- or share- ware solution.


Strictly spoken, that's right. What I would find a reasonable
solution is to reply and set the follow-up to alt.comp.shareware.

The problem with this newsgroup are that some the peeps are very pedantic. [...]
Sorry for the rant but this newsgroup sometimes tends to be negative. Try
and be helpful in the true spirit of usenet. That is what it was set up for,
especially the alt.* newsgroups of which this is one.


Well said, Rich, but what you've said will not be well rec'd, I
suspect! <G> It seems the purists on here would rather see *no* reply
to a request for which there is no freeware solution than see
suggestions for shareware and/or commercial programs that would be
helpful--even if there is absolutely *no* recommendation of a
pertinent freeware program!

There appears to be a good balance between those who will go out of
their way to help,

Take the case of free fonts. Not a freeware program, just manipulated data.
We have gone out of our way for this type of request.
But.... Shareware is what.................?
The answer is easy to figure out. But alas, again and again, not for
everyone.
Read John C's sig.
Don't flame me without your REAL full name. I've been to jail. It ain't
pretty.
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

mike said:
Gert van der Kooij wrote
But then I suspect the original post, like so many of the sort, is just a
troll, intended to make mischief, cause dissent and division, use up
bandwidth, and generally get in the way.

And here I am joining in - that's only because I always have to assume a
post of this sort is genuine until I know better

I agree completely with the original poster. Totally.

I don't care for _rigid_ over-zealous enforcement of "freeware-only,"
especially when we need a solution for a big problem caused by someone's
irresponsibly-crafted free program. Note that I said "_over_-zealous.

I'll make this distinction: this forum is for freeware topics only. But
when a person needs help extricating himself from a system that's been
damaged by a free program, restoration techniques are acceptable,
including when a commercial program is required to set things right.
Freeware is, indeed, the common link in this case -- it's what caused
the damage.

To do otherwise is like having a New Orleans Flood forum in which trolls
attack participants for offering meaningful help rather than sticking to
the topic of how the place was flooded.

The last time that I brought this up, someone accused me of promoting
payware -- which I never did. It would be nice if some self-righteous
people would read and reflect before blasting their artillary (and,
yes, someone will attack this message, too: I can smell the blasting
powder already). In fact, I take pleasure in discovering good
independent software -- some really good useful stuff is free. But some
freeware is rickety, even downright dangerous to a well-balanced system.
I gave a good, extensive writeup about my logic earlier and I won't do
it again -- it's not my job to "defend" myself against attacks. Of
course, some payware is irresponsibly crafted, too; sometimes the entire
business model of a software company is reckless (including one company
whose free product comes up here again and again and again. That's
besides the point, though.

You have not lived until you've searched your registry for keys left by
one program, links under four different names, including "pinkandaint"
(Pink and Ain't, get it? A private joke stuck in your own registry, get
it?). Using an install-tracking program could help a lot in a case like
this, but hey: guess what? Total Uninstaller is now payware!

Some people may just want to lurk and cherry-pick in the freeware
orchard where others have done the heavy test lifting for them. Or
casually suggest a program in a one-line reply. For those who do
rigorous testing, though, the task can be arduous and difficult. A test
report here can be the result of a great amount of work, sometimes at
the risk of system compromise.

My computer is pretty messed up right now from testing freeware; I and
my installation are worn out. Not to implicate freeware alone: I want to
rid one of my "new" machines of Norton Antivirus; its tentacles are
installed so deeply that I'm going to do what some professionals do:
wipe my HD and reinstall everything along with a new OS. I'm taking a
vacation from testing -- I'll lurk more. Testing can be rigorous and
very time consuming if you do it right. I'm out of time.

From time-to-time, the only solution to a freeware-caused system
problem will be a commercial product. Hopefully, it'll be nice and
cheap. Like everything here, this is not cast in stone -- the entire
situation is in a constant state of change. I applaud Luigi for taking a
wise, mature approach to this important issue.

Richard
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

Nicolaas said:
As, it appears, you profess knowledge of the true spirit of Usenet and
what the alt.* newsgroups were set up for, you will presumably also be
fully aware that, with the odd rare exception, they are unmoderated.
Please, therefore, refrain from trying to moderate this newsgroup.

And Mr. Hawkins, please refrain from trying to moderate this newsgroup.

Richard
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

rich said:
The problem with this newsgroup are that some the peeps are very pedantic.
If you have a knowledge of a particular subject and there are no freeware
apps available then you should be able to say so and offer an alternative.
At the moment there is one guy asking for help on video editing and he has
no chance of getting a free program to do what he is asking for. What is
the problem with suggesting 'go to ebay and get a oem copy of say *ulead
video editor*. Its given away with so many cheap capture cards and is
almost freeware anyway!

Sorry for the rant but this newsgroup sometimes tends to be negative. Try
and be helpful in the true spirit of usenet. That is what it was set up for,
especially the alt.* newsgroups of which this is one.

And Mr. Hawkins has already attempted to put you in your place for
daring to conflict with his interpretation of "The way things ought to be."

I notice that some of the righteous here live in a world of freeware
(good) and shareware (bad.) But sometimes the only tool is outright
payware. Period. In fact, some of what we're calling "shareware" is
probably payware. In other words: you want it? Come here and pay up.
That's the case with Total Uninstaller now, right?

Richard
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

Anne said:
Well said, Rich, but what you've said will not be well rec'd, I
suspect! <G> It seems the purists on here would rather see *no* reply
to a request for which there is no freeware solution than see
suggestions for shareware and/or commercial programs that would be
helpful--even if there is absolutely *no* recommendation of a
pertinent freeware program!

There appears to be a good balance between those who will go out of
their way to help, even if that means suggesting something other than
freeware, and those purists who insist only freeware solutions be
offered. They can knock each other out, and the rest of us can glean
what we can from the information that hits print when the dust
settles.. ;-)

Anne/OH

Nicely put. Perhaps this group is pretty good on-balance. I mean, it
could be like the audiophile groups, in which most of the posts are
personal attacks.

Richard
 
N

Nicolaas Hawkins

And Mr. Hawkins, please refrain from trying to moderate this newsgroup.

Don't be a dick ... it's SO unbecoming.


--
Regards,
Nicolaas.

Pricelessware 2006 CD now available.
E-Mail for details: raptor740.gmail@com (swap "." and "@")


.... It's as bad as you thought: we ARE out to get you!
 
N

Nicolaas Hawkins

And Mr. Hawkins has already attempted to put you in your place for
daring to conflict with his interpretation of "The way things ought to be."

Don't talk such absolute bollocks!

--
Regards,
Nicolaas.

Pricelessware 2006 CD now available.
E-Mail for details: raptor740.gmail@com (swap "." and "@")


.... You really shouldn't have squatted with your spurs on.
 
C

Craig

Roger said:
Yea, moderation should be moderated, at least to a moderate degree.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't this an immoderate usage of the word
"moderate?"

happy gnu year,
Craig
 
J

John Corliss

Luigi said:
I notice that more and more threads degenerate into useless holy flames
about free vs shareware. I read this group because I believe in freeware,
but I don't consider shareware evil--after all, programmers too must eat,
put a roof over their heads, etc. In addition we are all looking for the
best software, and sometimes the best software is simply not free, and
sometimes there are no freeware programs of acceptable--let alone
comparable--quality.

In other words, let's not make freeware a religion. Let's try to learn
from each other in an open, tolerant way. We'll consume less bandwidth,
and create a group that is a stronger community.

Man, what a great troll! I give that one an 8!

--
Regards from John Corliss
I don't reply to trolls and other such idiots. No adware, cdware,
commercial software, crippleware, demoware, nagware, PROmotionware,
shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses or warez
please.
 
R

Roger Hunt

Correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't this an immoderate usage of the word
"moderate?"
Well ... mebbe ... but one is a noun, another is a verby sort of a
thing, and the last is an adjective I think, so does that get me off
the hook?
 
M

Mike Andrade

Almost 40 posts hooked, and counting.
Including one who's sig contains the line "I do not respond to
trolls..." Clearly, some bait is just too good to pass up.

--
Mike

A bad neighbour is as great a misfortune as a good one is a great
blessing.
-- Hesiod (c. 700 BC)
 
J

John Corliss

Mike said:

Sorry, I couldn't resist. And it was early.

--
Regards from John Corliss
I don't reply to trolls and other such idiots. No adware, cdware,
commercial software, crippleware, demoware, nagware, PROmotionware,
shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses or warez
please.
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

Ron said:
I agree that the discourse in this group (and in nearly all usenet
gorups) could do with a lot less name calling and people writing
things to and about one another that they wouldn't dare say in a face
to face situation. There are ways to disagree without having to be
rude, obnoxious and and occasionally downright obscene. There's much
to be said for trying to maintain a reasonable degree of civility.

On the other hand, while the accusation is often made, I don't think
I've EVER seen anyone suggest in here that, TO THEM, "shareware (is)
evil" or that "freeware (is) a religion." It is, however, very much
off topic to recommend shareware or commercial solutions in a group
called "alt.comp.freeware"

If your primary concern really is about "ng etiquete," but you feel
it's absolutely necessary to recommend commercial software or
shareware, do it OUTSIDE the newsgroup. That would certainly be the
mannerly and polite thing to do, wouldn't you agree?

Not exactly, Ron.
The poster's machine may be very seriously screwed up, as in barely
limping, having been messed up by freeware that he innocently installed.

Example: the programmer/donor has neglected to indicate the
requirements, including operating system, his product is designed to
work with (sound familiar?). The poster is running Windows ME; the
freeware was developed, unannounced in fact, for Windows 95. The
download also installs (completely undocumented) an obsolete Borland
environment -- an additional directory created someplace else, unleashes
a flurry of .DLLs into \Windows\System, including a few that overwrite
later ones of the same name. Finally, the install routine has made
numerous changes in the registry, some of which point to the new Borland
items; the rest of the registry keys have been inserted under four
fanciful names by the developer, including the word "pinkandaint" ("Pink
and Ain't," get it?). The poster doesn't know what the hell has happened
to his computer: his printer won't work; he can't get onto the Web at
all. He's got to turn in a report at work tomorrow or get fired and Word
won't save his document to disk. His livlihood is now at risk.

Our innocent freeware believer is now in deep, deep shit, Ron. Real
shit. He needs all the help he can get, and _fast._ This is no time to
stand on ceremony.

Sound farfetched? If it does, you haven't tried enough freeware.

I'm talking from experience. It's been said that "A conservative is a
liberal who'se been mugged." No, I'm not a conservative; I've not been
mugged. But I've been "mugged" with badly-crafted and especially, badly
described freeware. (I've also been "mugged" by nasty
commercial/corporate software).

As I've posted earlier, I want to stress that I am a champion of great
freeware. I support coders who are learning along with us (their users).
It can be an exciting persuit. In fact, I was an early champion of
PC-Write; although one of the first shareware programs ever, it was
fully-functioning freeware, and a magnificent writer's tool that has
almost never been equalled for speed of handling by a writer.

Now, at a time when the poster is begging for help, this freeware group
is exactly the perfect place to ask. For one thing, people on a
different forum won't be as likely to know the free application that's
wreaked the havoc on his system. And this will be precisely the right
place for someone to suggest a payware solution to get the poster out of
the jam he's in, providing that a free solution isn't available, _and
easily accessible_ (sometimes, the recommended link is dead: I've been
there, too). There are times when a payware solution is dead on-topic
when the job is to extricate one of our participants from the free
quicksand he's mired in. Quick: the guy's drowning.

Richard
 

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