Need .net programmers with socket / TCP interest

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

so if it is more suitable, i take it you are recanting on your original
reply: that it is not appropriate for OP to solicit in this newsgroup.

Nope. Just because something may be *possibly* more suitable
on another group doesn't mean it's unacceptable or inappropriate on
this group. A post can be appropriate for more than one group but
*possibly* slightly more suitable for one group than another - and
that's likely to be a judgement call.

Because, as you pointed out, *.general is a better place to post
solications. This is inline with what Scott was saying. Isn't it? Here is
what he said

for that.

I still think it was a perfectly reasonable post.

Can you imagine what would happen if Scott made the same kind of
dismissal of all posts in the C# newsgroup which weren't *strictly*
about the language C#? (Most are about using the framework from within
C#.)

 

[Scott M.]

Jon, you really reaching now. You are trying to make me out to be a NG
Nazi, which I am not. The OP does not ask a question about .NET, it does
not make a comment about .NET and it does not reply to someone else's
question or comment about .NET. This is a pretty broad field of scope.

And, I do see the loose relevance in the fact that the project is built in
..NET. But the OP serves itself (Indy), not the .NET community. Think of it
this way, after reading the OP, what have I (as a .NET developer) gained?
There was no info. in the OP about .NET at all. Go back and read the OP.
It is an advertisement plain and simple. The fact that it is an open source
project doesn't change that. The OP is soliciting, not offering any
relevant info. of any kind. These NG's are not for solicitations. This is
not my own personal opinion, it is a widely held opinion that, I admit, not
all share. But it is enough for me to speak my mind on it.

Can you imagine what would happen if Scott made the same kind of
dismissal of all posts in the C# newsgroup which weren't *strictly*
about the language C#? (Most are about using the framework from within
C#.)

As for this, you are again giving us attitude, rather than an objective
opinion. If someone were to post a question about the framework from a C#
perspective (or anything else about C# for that matter [i.e. "Where did MS
get the name C# from?"]), it would be relevant. You make it sound like I
want to screen questions for their validity, which is not even close to what
I've been saying.

I simply said that solicitations are not appropriate for these NG's. Take
it, leave it - - it really doesn't matter to me, but don't twist my meaning
into something it's not.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Jon, you really reaching now. You are trying to make me out to be a NG
Nazi, which I am not.

I have never said you are, nor would I. However, I would note that I've
been called a newsgroup Nazi for far more *polite* suggestions about
netiquette, and ones which were less debatable. I don't find the term
to be a useful or constructive one at all, myself.

The OP does not ask a question about .NET, it does
not make a comment about .NET and it does not reply to someone else's
question or comment about .NET. This is a pretty broad field of scope.

I still think the scope "should" be broad enough to include this kind
of post though - especially as MS in its wisdom has chosen not to
provide any more appropriate announcement groups. (There's an ASP.NET
announcement group, but that's it - and it would have been far more
off-topic now.)

And, I do see the loose relevance in the fact that the project is built in
.NET. But the OP serves itself (Indy), not the .NET community. Think of it
this way, after reading the OP, what have I (as a .NET developer) gained?

You've gained knowledge of the Indy project, which you (as a .NET
developer) may well wish to use.

There was no info. in the OP about .NET at all.

Well, there was information that is useful to those developing in .NET.

Go back and read the OP.
It is an advertisement plain and simple. The fact that it is an open source
project doesn't change that. The OP is soliciting, not offering any
relevant info. of any kind. These NG's are not for solicitations. This is
not my own personal opinion, it is a widely held opinion that, I admit, not
all share. But it is enough for me to speak my mind on it.

I would at least suggest that you could have spoken your mind more
politely. For instance:

"I suggest that you post your question on newsgroup <insert name of the
newsgroup you think would have been better here>. Your post is off-
topic on this newsgroup."

And when it comes to speaking your mind about it - you seem to object
that I've spoken *my* mind in saying that I think it was a perfectly
reasonable post. Could I ask what you'd have done if someone else had
made your reply to a post which *you* thought was absolutely fine?

Can you imagine what would happen if Scott made the same kind of
dismissal of all posts in the C# newsgroup which weren't *strictly*
about the language C#? (Most are about using the framework from within
C#.)

As for this, you are again giving us attitude, rather than an objective
opinion. If someone were to post a question about the framework from a C#
perspective (or anything else about C# for that matter [i.e. "Where did MS
get the name C# from?"]), it would be relevant. You make it sound like I
want to screen questions for their validity, which is not even close to what
I've been saying.

Now I think *you're* stretching. There are plenty of questions on the
C# group which have nothing to do with C# specifically, and which would
be *much* better asked in an appropriate group. For instance, interop
questions which *happen* to be using C# are often asked in the C#
newsgroup despite the fact that an almost identical question could have
been asked in VB.NET terms - the language is completely irrelevant to
the question.

In fact, some questions don't even *mention* C# or include any C# code.
Here's an example:

<quote>
I need to copy a directory to another locaiton. Is there some .Net
framework method I cannot find for copying a directory from 1 location
to another? I found the File.Copy(), but there does not seem to be a
Directory counterpart. Or do I have to code my own recrusion routine to
do this?
</quote>

That has absolutely no bearing on C# as a language, and would be much
better off being posted in another group. However, replying with the
same kind of post as you did to every post like that would be a
*really* bad idea.

I simply said that solicitations are not appropriate for these NG's. Take
it, leave it - - it really doesn't matter to me, but don't twist my meaning
into something it's not.

I would ask you to do the same - I am not trying to make you out to be
a newsgroup Nazi, just that applying your level of stricture in other
aspects (topic of newsgroup rather than type of post) would be cause
chaos. How exactly is that twisting your meaning?

 

[Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]]

and I dont feel that utterly important. At the current time many people

cannot read .general anwyways because of its reindexing.

Is that an excuse to post it here? So the gas station ran out of gas, should
i put diesel because gas is not available? It's a public forum and anything
can go but at least a little netiquette can go a long way.

 

[Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]]

I think this is going off topic. The underlying issue is that proliferation
of solicitations of this kind will turn the newsgroup into something it was
not meant to be - a job board. That is the nitty-gritty. Whether it was said
rudely is debatable but what is not is that this kinds of posting must be
pointed to a more suitable group.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b

Jon, you really reaching now. You are trying to make me out to be a NG
Nazi, which I am not.

I have never said you are, nor would I. However, I would note that I've
been called a newsgroup Nazi for far more *polite* suggestions about
netiquette, and ones which were less debatable. I don't find the term
to be a useful or constructive one at all, myself.

The OP does not ask a question about .NET, it does
not make a comment about .NET and it does not reply to someone else's
question or comment about .NET. This is a pretty broad field of scope.

I still think the scope "should" be broad enough to include this kind
of post though - especially as MS in its wisdom has chosen not to
provide any more appropriate announcement groups. (There's an ASP.NET
announcement group, but that's it - and it would have been far more
off-topic now.)

And, I do see the loose relevance in the fact that the project is built in
.NET. But the OP serves itself (Indy), not the .NET community. Think of it
this way, after reading the OP, what have I (as a .NET developer)

gained?

You've gained knowledge of the Indy project, which you (as a .NET
developer) may well wish to use.

There was no info. in the OP about .NET at all.

Well, there was information that is useful to those developing in .NET.

Go back and read the OP.
It is an advertisement plain and simple. The fact that it is an open source
project doesn't change that. The OP is soliciting, not offering any
relevant info. of any kind. These NG's are not for solicitations. This is
not my own personal opinion, it is a widely held opinion that, I admit, not
all share. But it is enough for me to speak my mind on it.

I would at least suggest that you could have spoken your mind more
politely. For instance:

"I suggest that you post your question on newsgroup <insert name of the
newsgroup you think would have been better here>. Your post is off-
topic on this newsgroup."

And when it comes to speaking your mind about it - you seem to object
that I've spoken *my* mind in saying that I think it was a perfectly
reasonable post. Could I ask what you'd have done if someone else had
made your reply to a post which *you* thought was absolutely fine?

Can you imagine what would happen if Scott made the same kind of
dismissal of all posts in the C# newsgroup which weren't *strictly*
about the language C#? (Most are about using the framework from within
C#.)

As for this, you are again giving us attitude, rather than an objective
opinion. If someone were to post a question about the framework from a C#
perspective (or anything else about C# for that matter [i.e. "Where did MS
get the name C# from?"]), it would be relevant. You make it sound like I
want to screen questions for their validity, which is not even close to what
I've been saying.

Now I think *you're* stretching. There are plenty of questions on the
C# group which have nothing to do with C# specifically, and which would
be *much* better asked in an appropriate group. For instance, interop
questions which *happen* to be using C# are often asked in the C#
newsgroup despite the fact that an almost identical question could have
been asked in VB.NET terms - the language is completely irrelevant to
the question.

In fact, some questions don't even *mention* C# or include any C# code.
Here's an example:

<quote>
I need to copy a directory to another locaiton. Is there some .Net
framework method I cannot find for copying a directory from 1 location
to another? I found the File.Copy(), but there does not seem to be a
Directory counterpart. Or do I have to code my own recrusion routine to
do this?
</quote>

That has absolutely no bearing on C# as a language, and would be much
better off being posted in another group. However, replying with the
same kind of post as you did to every post like that would be a
*really* bad idea.

I simply said that solicitations are not appropriate for these NG's. Take
it, leave it - - it really doesn't matter to me, but don't twist my meaning
into something it's not.

I would ask you to do the same - I am not trying to make you out to be
a newsgroup Nazi, just that applying your level of stricture in other
aspects (topic of newsgroup rather than type of post) would be cause
chaos. How exactly is that twisting your meaning?

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

I think this is going off topic. The underlying issue is that proliferation
of solicitations of this kind will turn the newsgroup into something it was
not meant to be - a job board. That is the nitty-gritty. Whether it was said
rudely is debatable but what is not is that this kinds of posting must be
pointed to a more suitable group.

Your idea of "debatable" is clearly different to mine seeing as it's
precisely what we *have* been debating. Nor was the post actually
advertising a *job* in the normal sense (i.e. paid work).

Anyway, I totally agree that this thread is now *way* off-topic. I will
read any further replies, but won't comment further, on pain of being
reminded by everyone else about this post and ritually humiliated If
anyone actually *wants* replies, say so and I'll reply by email. We all
understand that Alvin and Scott feel the post was inappropriate here,
and Chad and I don't. None of us are likely to convince any of the
others that they are wrong, and I suspect all that would be achieved by
further discussion is heated tempers.

Alvin, you and I have been round and round often enough that I know
there won't be any hard feelings. Scott, take it from me that there'll
be no hard feelings, and I hope we see each other and communicate on
more friendly terms in other threads.

I'm not trying to put in a last word here, so please don't feel I'm
asking anyone to take the last posts I've made without a chance to
respond - I just want to start the new working week without an argument
going on

 

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

Is that an excuse to post it here? So the gas station ran out of gas,
should i put diesel because gas is not available? It's a public forum
and anything can go but at least a little netiquette can go a long way.

A) It was not a job posting as you alluded to in your previous reply.

B) Whether its .general or .framework has already been said is really a fine
enough line that it does not matter.



--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"


ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

 

[Ken Cox [Microsoft MVP]]

Chad,

This isn't really the place for this type of announcement. This area is for
peer-to-peer ASP.NET support.

A more appropriate place is:

microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.aspnet.announcements

Or for job postings,

http://www.asp.net/Forums/ShowForum.aspx?tabindex=1&ForumID=59

 

[Ken Cox [Microsoft MVP]]

Oops, sorry. Thought I was in ASP.NET.

Ken

A few of you may recognize me from the recent posts I have made about Indy
<http://www.indyproject.org/indy.html>

Those of you coming to .net from the Delphi world know truly how unique
and
"huge" Indy is both as a project, in support, development, and use. But
Indy is new to the .net world.

Indy is a HUGE library implementing over 120 internet protocols and
standards and comes with complete source. Its an open source project, but
not your typical abandonware type. It has a development team of
approximately 40 people who are very active, a dedicated documentation
team, a dedicated demo team, a support team, commercial support options,
and even a book.

Its hard to simply take someones word for this - especially when the word
is from someone who is not well known in the .net world (yet! ).
<http://www.hower.org/Chad/Bio.html>
I currently speak at 6-8 conferences around the world each year as well as
regularly write for Delphi magazines.

But Indy is huge - and even with System.Net.Sockets Indy still has a LOT
to
offer. Its like comparing a kitchen knife with Swiss Army's top model
knife.
For some basics you can see:
<http://www.atozed.com/indy/Texts/WhyIndy.iwp>

The team obviously is heavily Delphi based. Many of us are doing C# work
as
well because Delphi 8 just arrived and many of us needed .net earlier. And
many of us still cross over back and forth between VS and Delphi.

What we need is some VS users - in this case C# / VB users to join a new
team we are forming. We have not named this team yet, but this team would
help us move foward into the VS / .net (other IDEs) world. Roles will be
mixed - support, input, direction, docs, writing demos, and more. Dont
worry - you dont have to do it all. Thats what a team is about - but
everyone can contribute what they are able too.

Not a guru? It doesnt matter. While we welcome and would love to have some
MVPs and MSCE's on board, we are looking for average Joe's, corporate
developers, students, hobbyists and even the newbie!

Rewards? Well Indy is free. But its a very rewarding experience, as well
as
a chance to learn, meet new people, experience new code, and be part of a
team. Best of all to forward a very cool and already successful open
source
project!

Previously a Delphi or a current cross over user? If so - you can reply
and
lend some credibility to my message for those who have no clue who I am.
In
the Delphi world I am fairly well known - but I am a newcomer and do not
have much name recogntion here, and neither does Indy yet.



--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"


ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

 

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

Oops, sorry. Thought I was in ASP.NET.

If there was a framework.announcements I would have gladly used it.


--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"


ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

 

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

Or for job postings,

http://www.asp.net/Forums/ShowForum.aspx?tabindex=1&ForumID=59

If it was a job posting...


--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"


ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

 

[Scott M.]

Jon, I'm pretty thick skinned so I don't hold grudges. And frankly, I
haven't considered this thread an argument, per se. It does seem to me
though that you took:

"This is NOT a place for solicitation. Please find an appropriate venue for
that."

to be some kind of rude comment. It seems like a stern but polite way of
passing the info. along to me, and that was how it was intended.

Anyway, my hope is that the OP will at least now see that there are some
folks out there that may be turned off by his posts of this kind and will
think a bit more before posting this sort of thing again.

 

[Daniel O'Connell]

If there was a framework.announcements I would have gladly used it.

The only thing I would have asked is that you prefix your post with ANN: or
another relevent prefix, posts with topics like this don't nessecerily mean
its an announcement(more often its someone who needs help with sockets). It
also makes life easier for others, if they don't wanna see announcements or
solicitations of this type they can just filter or skip messages and replies
with subjects starting with ANN:.

 

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

The only thing I would have asked is that you prefix your post with ANN:
or another relevent prefix, posts with topics like this don't
nessecerily mean its an announcement(more often its someone who needs

Aah yes. I could have added the ANN:.


--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programming is an art form that fights back"


ELKNews - Get your free copy at http://www.atozedsoftware.com

 

[Hadi Hariri]

This isn't really the place for this type of announcement. This area

is for peer-to-peer ASP.NET support.

Where in the group is the word "asp"? Also Indy is NOT and has
NOTHING to do with ASP so it shouldn't go into announcements of ASP.

 

[Scott M.]

Guess you didn't read the next post:

"Oops, sorry. Thought I was in ASP.NET.

Ken"