NAS Backup Fireproof Storage

[Alexander Grigoriev]

Rod Speed wrote:
The only way halon is useful is if the area protected is substantial in
size. Otherwise, the heat buildup will cause hardware damage. You don't
seem to realize the temperatures that are reached in building fires.


BTW Your obnoxious responses to everyone you disagree with is rather
childish. Grow up.

Mike

Looks like you've had no idea who Rod Speed is... Any discusson with him is
not worth time. Just ignore him, like most other do.

 

[Rod Speed]

Looks like you've had no idea who Rod Speed is... Any discusson with him is not worth time. Just
ignore him, like most other do.

Its you that everyone ignores, child.

 

[Jesco Lincke]

And completely trivial to do Cat5 and power thru a
high temperature insulation rated fire rated wall too.



No it doesnt. In spades with the furnace door effect.


You cant even manage to grasp even the most basic physics
like that terminally silly howler that the room the furnace is
in wont be affected by opening the furnace door, but will
go up in flames if you put a sheet of high temperature
insulation with a pinhole in it in place of the door.


You have always been, and always will be, completely and
utterly irrelevant. In spades when you made such a spectacular
fool of yourself with your terminally silly pinhole claim.



Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.


Indeed, but even someone as stupid as you can grasp what
would happen with that pinhole test with a furnace and even
you have noticed what a spectacular fool you have made of
yourself and we have all noticed that you are desperately
attempting to bullshit your way out of your predicament now.

Fire rated hard drives ARE BUYABLE NOW.

Rule of Holes. When you are in one STOP DIGGING.

Rod, 3 points:

1. The oven example is not valid, since you are comparing a relatively
small hot environment effecting a large one with a large hot environment
effecting a small one.
Also, dont expect lensing effects through an oven DOOR...

2. You do not give references. Your knowledge might be as you claim - it
might not. Since several of the other posters here seem to think
different, please enlighten us by giving references. It would help keep
the discusion short and objective. Which brings me to

3. Yor way of arguing is offensive. Sorry, there's no other way of
putting it. I've seen it on other posts, I've seen it here. Which is a
pity, because I still have no clue whether you're actually right or
wrong. But I won't be listening for long...

 

[Jesco Lincke]

What you know of is completely irrelevant.


Consider what would happen if you take a took a high
temperature furnace, and didnt turn it on. Put the NAS inside
that. Thats obviously going to survive a decent fire fine.


Dont need one, that example above would obviously work well enough.

Your oven example is just what I stated - a 100% closed environment.
Keep the door open and watch your data fry...

 

[Jesco Lincke]

FWIW, A google for "nema fireproof enclosure" gets more hits than I
figured it would. Here's one

http://www.uptime4u.com/nema_enclosures.php

(For the UK folks, "NEMA" is National Electrical Manufacturers
Association, and is shorthand to all sorts of boxes used in electrical
and telecom construction. Givena NEMA part number for something, I'm
sure something in EU standards can be found.

Thanks for the link. The first real reference here. However, the page
the link brings me to is titled "NEMA Enclosures for Locating Sensitive
Equipment in Dusty or Wet Environments."
Doesn't mention fire anywhere...

 

[Jesco Lincke]

Yes, but if you take a high temperature furnace, dont
turn it on, put the hard drive inside that, it will hand the
2-3 hours fine with no damage to the drive inside it.

So clearly its possible to construct something that will perform just as well.


There's plenty of UL 3 hour fire rated data safes around.

No big deal to have it continue to run inside that, particularly
if its got remote shutdown and wake on lan etc.

And how are you going to get the power and LAN into the oven, I wonder?

 

[Jesco Lincke]

Actually these things are rated as how long they can keep below
a certain temperature. Note that this is higher for document
safes, since paper can withstand higher temperatures.


Indeed. And the correct cables. They do exist. There is also
specific fire-suppression foam that is used to seal of cables
runnign through walls.



It needs to be a safe rated for data carriers. And the running of
the cabless needs to be done by somebody that knows what they
are doing.

Here is another solution I found: Apparently there are data safes with
power-connectors inside. You can then run the data connection in there
with a powerline adapter. That would mean no tampering with the
fireproofing by the manufactuere. Actually this may be the perfect
solution!

If money is not an issue, it seems you can even buy fireproofed
USB drives: http://www.klsecurity.com/schwab_datafortress.htm

Arno

Thanks for the link. First example given here that might actaully work.
I'm interested...

Jesco

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Rod, 3 points:

All of them complete duds.

1. The oven example is not valid,
Wrong.

since you are comparing a relatively small hot environment effecting a large one with a large hot
environment effecting a small one.

The size is completely irrelevant. You can try the alleged pinhole 'lens'
effect with the sun if you like, you wont burn down a house with that either.

Basic physics again. You can only set fire to something in that
situation when significant IR energy gets thru the pinhole 'lens'
and that cant happen, as you can prove by trying it with the sun.

The door open will in fact allow MUCH more IR to fall on what is
outside it and you can feel that IR by standing near that open door.
You dont however ever get even remotely close to catching fire.

Also, dont expect lensing effects through an oven DOOR...

Covered that by rubbing his and now your nose in the
fact that even if you replace the door with high temperature
insulation in it, you STILL wont set fire to the room.

You wont with the sun either.

2. You do not give references.

Dont need to on something as basic as that. You are welcome
to try the pinhole 'lens' effect with the sun any time you like.

It should be obvious that furnaces wouldnt have doors that can
be opened if opening them would set fire to the room they are in.

And you may well be able to find some operation that runs furnaces
let you stand near one with the door open, or watch video of where
that happens when the furnace is used, without anyone catching fire.

Your knowledge might be as you claim - it might not.

Wrong again.

Since several of the other posters here seem to think different,

No they dont on that alleged pinhole 'lens' effect.

please enlighten us by giving references.

How many of you are there between those ears ?

It would help keep the discusion short and objective.

You get no say what so ever on what might or might not help.

Which brings me to

3. Yor way of arguing is offensive.

You get to like that or lump it.

Sorry, there's no other way of putting it.

Ditto in spades to you.

I've seen it on other posts, I've seen it here. Which is a
pity, because I still have no clue whether you're actually right or wrong. But I won't be
listening for long...

You have always been, and always will be completley and utterly irrelavant.

How long you may or may not listen in spades.

You clearly dont have a clue about the most basic physics either.

Even you should have noticed by now that fire resistant hard drives are buyable.

And even if you dont like the detail of a working furnace, even
you should be able to grasp that if you dont turn the furnace on,
and put a hard drive inside one, it will survive a fire fine.

And I wont be providing 'references' on something as basic as that either.

I wont on the claim that the sun will rise again tomorrow either.

 

[Rod Speed]

Thanks for the link. The first real reference here. However, the page
the link brings me to is titled "NEMA Enclosures for Locating
Sensitive Equipment in Dusty or Wet Environments."
Doesn't mention fire anywhere...

Pity about http://www.google.com.au/search?q=nema+fireproof+enclosure
if you are actually to stupid to do that for yourself.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Your oven example is just what I stated - a 100% closed environment.

Irrelevant, the data would still be fine.

Keep the door open and watch your data fry...

Irrelevant, only a fool would leave the door open.

 

[Rod Speed]

Thanks for the link. First example given here that might actaully work.

Wrong again. Taking a normal fire proof data safe and adding some
way of powering what is inside it properly would obviously work too.

Ditto with doing it with a furnace that isnt turned on too.

I'm interested...

You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelvant.

What might or might not interest you in spades.

You're clearly to stupid to be able to manage
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=nema+fireproof+enclosure
for yourself.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

And how are you going to get the power and LAN into the oven, I wonder?

Same way you get power and other cables into other firewalled situations.

Furnaces and the instrumentation in furnaces in spades.

You basically use very high temperature insulation and put metallic conductors thru that.

Not a shred of rocket science whatever required.

Even halogen light bulbs to it by the billons every single day.

 

[Aidan Karley]

Based on the way you respond to posts, I know you have serious psychological
problems.

Rod is one of the local kooks. As you've noticed.
Killfile is your friend.

 

[Aidan Karley]

He said in the original post that it's for a company. If he thinks he's going
to get anything more than about an hour's fire resistance (closet approach)
against a fire that's put out in a timely manner, he's dreaming. He'd have to
insist on water sprinklers in the closet to control temps.

Or dig a reasonably substantial fire safe into a pit *in* the foundations
and let the thermal mass (inertia) of the ground do his insulation for him.
Wouldn't hurt putting the safe next to an incoming plastic water pipe too.

If he had an
completely separate hardware room, he could use halon, but that would only deal
with fires in the room and not fires around the room that are persistent.

I don't think halon new-build is allowed. Repair/ maintenance of existing
halon systems is allowed, but in the civilised/ legal world you can't get new
halon to top up your existing systems, let alone to fill new systems. Same for ACs
- whatever is put in them these days isn't halon and may actually be flammable.
Certainly as I go round my various clients locations I see warning signs
being steadily changed from "Danger - Halon Flood System Installed" to "Danger -
CO2 Flood System Installed".

The only real data security available is frequent backups stored off-site.

Agreed. On-site storage is for your convenience, not for your security.

 

[Al Dykes]

Thanks for the link. The first real reference here. However, the page
the link brings me to is titled "NEMA Enclosures for Locating Sensitive
Equipment in Dusty or Wet Environments."
Doesn't mention fire anywhere...

Do your own googling. If a NEMA part doesn't do what you want, I say
that your expectations exceed reality for an out-of-the-catalog
solution.

Assuming this is business data, IMO you are fixating one one aspect
proposing spending mone that only one aspect of loss.

Twice in my years of running data centers I've come to work in the
Morning and found police and firemen blocking all access to my
building. Once was a smoke condition from the subway structures below
our building and once was a PCB cleanup from a utility transformer
that exploded.

Other buildings become structurally unsafe and the occupants are not
allowed to retrieve anything. A leak from the gas mains can blow up a
structure with no notice.

I've written business contigency plans for large organizations. When
management folks want to talk about fire, water, or other specific
scenarios, I say no, and to imagine that Space Aliens have a tractor
beam and they decide to remove your building (and staff, unfortunatly)
at some instant and all you have is a neat hole in the ground.

That may sound like an extreme scenario, but it's effectively what has
happens when the building inspector says your builing is too risky for
you to go in and remove anything.

You need a cost/risk assessment and what to do with the risk is a
business decision, not a technical one. It's your job as an engineer
to present costs of loss and the costs of various ways of reducing
risk, but how much risk to accept is what business folks do.

 

[chrisv]

I have a copy of "Measures for Fire Safety in High Buildings", part of
Supplement No. 3 of the National Building Code of Canada right here and it says
you're wrong. You haven't got a clue how fires behave in buildings and your
ranting proves it well enough to me.

Rodney has to play "expert" on pretty much every issue that comes up.

Based on the way you respond to posts, I know you have serious psychological
problems.

Just because you keep saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong or you right.

Rodney is incapable of backing-down and admitting that he's wrong.
Pathetic, really.

 

[Jesco Lincke]

Pity about http://www.google.com.au/search?q=nema+fireproof+enclosure
if you are actually to stupid to do that for yourself.

First of all: Thank you, Rod, for giving a reference for once. Seems
you're starting to argue factually after all.

I followed the first 6 links of your posted search query. Strangely,
none of them lead to any information on fireproof casing for running
storage drives.
Maybe I didn't follow it thoroughly enough (although I've spent the best
part of 15 mins looking), could you perhaps point me to a link of an
actual product?

Thanks,

Jesco

 

[Al Dykes]

First of all: Thank you, Rod, for giving a reference for once. Seems
you're starting to argue factually after all.

I followed the first 6 links of your posted search query. Strangely,
none of them lead to any information on fireproof casing for running
storage drives.
Maybe I didn't follow it thoroughly enough (although I've spent the best
part of 15 mins looking), could you perhaps point me to a link of an
actual product?

Thanks,

Jesco

IMO, if NEMA doesn't have a spec for what you want, your expectations
are unreasonable.

 

[Jesco Lincke]

IMO, if NEMA doesn't have a spec for what you want, your expectations
are unreasonable.

Just looked around a bit more and found
http://www.uptime4u.com/v-web/gallery/fireproof_safes_tape_drive/s_fire_proof_data_storage
which was also posted elsewhere in this thread.
Looks quite promising...

Jesco

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

First of all: Thank you, Rod, for giving a reference for once. Seems you're starting to argue
factually after all.

Always did that, child.

I followed the first 6 links of your posted search query. Strangely, none of them lead to any
information on fireproof casing for running storage drives.

Irrelevant, they are clearly fireproof enclosures and even someone
as stupid as you should be able to grasp that its obviously going to
be possible to put a hard drive in a fireproof enclosure.

Maybe I didn't follow it thoroughly enough (although I've spent the best part of 15 mins looking),
could you perhaps point me to a link of an actual product?

You've already been given one of those, you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.