MS Word - what a mickey mouse pile of sh!t.

[Gordon]

Closed source software does NOT give you any assurance that the source
will be around when the company that developed it goes out of business.

In fact it's happened with MS - the Outlook 2003 pst file format is NOT
backwards compatible!



--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

 

[TF]

If an SME buys a server with open source OS (Linux), when something doesn't
work as expected, who is going to fix it? Who is going to patch the security
holes when they are discovered? Who is going to sort out the
incompatibilities? OTOH, if an SME buys a standard Microsoft solution, they
know how long it will supported by Microsoft and they know which products
are compatible and who will sort out the problems.

Buy a server from IBM and they will tell you the server is Linux compatible:
they will not sell you a server with Linux: but they will introduce you to a
company that will provide Linux. HP and Dell are the same: they let a third
party sell the Linux. But they all provide - and will support - an MS
Windows based server.

I work for a company that provides IT management and support for SMEs and I
can absolutely guarantee you that the company with 200 users spread over
several sites using a standard MS solution will spend a fraction on support
than a similar company that has splashed out on Linux, Novell, Notes and
other non-standard solutions. It is the cost of supporting these systems
that far out-strips the initial purchase cost. Open Source provides
absolutely no benefit to the average company: all they want is the IT to
support their work with minimum of interruption. A standard solution
provides just that.

Terry Farrell


: Cindy M -WordMVP- shared this with us in
: microsoft.public.word.newusers:
:
: > Hi Amedee,
: >
: > > Of course, MS Office is NOT Open Source
: > >
: > That's right, it's not. Advantages and disadvantages. Advantages?
: > Someone in this thread mentioned they couldn't understand why so many
: > companies choose/chose the MS product over others on the market. One
: > reason is standardization (definitely NOT provided by open source).
:
: May I mention LSB here?
: http://www.linuxbase.org/
:
: > IT departments want to have control over what's installed, and when
: > people call in with problems, have an idea what it could be. When
: > Open Source involved, that's more of an issue.
:
: You have a point there, however one might argue that some non-MS
: systems give IT departments even more control and standardization. It
: all depends how well it is implemented. I'm sure you'll agree on the
: implementation argument.
:
: > As is having some assurance that the source of the program will still
: > be around in a few years.
:
: I do not agree. (or: I don't understand your point of view)
:
: Closed source software does NOT give you any assurance that the source
: will be around when the company that developed it goes out of business.
: I can name you dozens of excellent closed source programs that are lost
: for humanity forever, because the makers stopped.
: I know about escrow services, but these can be quite expensive, and the
: escrow system only works if you registered the software before Bad
: Things Happened.
:
: Open Source software OTOH will always be available as source - why,
: that's the very definition of Open Source. Your opinion seems to differ
: so could you please explain?
:
:
: --
: Amedee Van Gasse using XanaNews 1.17.1.2
: If it has an "X" in the name, it must be Linux?
: Please don't thank me in advance. Thank me afterwards if it works or
: hit me in the face if it doesn't. ;-)

 

[Gordon]

I work for a company that provides IT management and support for SMEs and I
can absolutely guarantee you that the company with 200 users spread over
several sites using a standard MS solution will spend a fraction on support
than a similar company that has splashed out on Linux, Novell, Notes and
other non-standard solutions.

Umm I wouldn't call Novell and Notes a "non-standard solution"!!! there
are still a VERY large number of organisations using both.

--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I've been using Word for so long that of course I've customized it a good
bit, but whenever I get a new computer, I start from scratch with a clean
copy of Office, and I don't believe that indenting when you press Tab is the
default setting. If it were, why would we have so many questions in these
NGs asking how to get Word to do it? It would be easy enough to check this
by starting Word with the /a switch, and I'll do that when I get time.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

But Normal style is *not* set to update automatically by default. This
problem is caused by an add-in.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Gordon]

I've been using Word for so long that of course I've customized it a good
bit, but whenever I get a new computer, I start from scratch with a clean
copy of Office, and I don't believe that indenting when you press Tab

well I've gone from office 97 through office 2000 and am now on office
XP, and currently, that is the default setting when I first installed
Office XP. (I've now turned it off, but it was indeed turned on by
default when the installation had completed)


--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

 

[TF]

Gordon

Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default. Something else
(incompatible or malicious) on your computer has done that.

I agree with some of your points about the 'automation'. We have discussed
this with the developers - but there seems to be a bit of a Catch22 point
here. If the install has the automation turned off by default, then the
average user will never know about it and never reap its benefit. OTOH,
because a new user doesn't know what automation is active, all they see is
strange and unexpected affects. The 'turn on by default' party has won the
day!

Terry

: TF wrote:
: > Example. You want to indent the first line
: > : of a paragraph. Logical action, place the cursor at the beginning of
the
: > : line and press tab. In Word? Oh no! That indents the WHOLE paragraph!
: > : And that's the DEFAULT setting! And then you try to get it back to
where
: > : it was in the first place. A real waste of time.
: >
: >
: > Gordon
: >
: > What you have described above is NOT normal: it is because Normal Style
has
: > been set to automatically update.
: >If you use Format, Style and select
: > Normal, you will see an Automatically Update check box that should be
: > cleared.
:
: But that's just my point - that is the the *DEFAULT* setting - unless
: you "undo" it, that's how Word is installed. At least with Office XP.
: You shouldn't have to "undo" a function that isn't needed and causes a
: lot of irritation - those who DO need it should be able to enable it,
: not the other way around.
:
: >
: > What you say about just writting letters and memos is also nonsense.
Just
: > writing a letter more than a couple of times means that you are
constantly
: > typing in your address, entering the current date and a signature block,
: > etc. All these repetitive actions are wasting your precious time. Spend
just
: > five minutes creating a personailised letter template and reap the
rewards:
: > you will never have to add your address or the current date again.
: >
: > Take some time and learn to use Word's powerful features: it will save
you
: > loads of repetetive work and make your output consistent, error free and
: > faster.
:
: Don't quite know where you got that lot from in my post - I can't
: see any mention of that! Of *course* I use templates etc,and have done
: in all the WP apps I've ever used, my point was that Word does some very
: illogical and unintuitive things which other WP apps do NOT - and the
: "average" user (and by that I *don't* mean secretaries, I mean those
: people to whom Word is not something that they use sufficiently
: frequently to warrant advanced training in all it's functions) finds
: these blips frustrating.
: >
:
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

 

[Gordon]

Gordon

Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default. Something else
(incompatible or malicious) on your computer has done that.

A fresh install of office XP on a fresh XP install (before internet
connection) installed it turned on!


--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

 

[TF]

Gordon

I have to agree with you: I'm sure that the 'Tab' setting is one of those on
by default. I don't like it and turn it off immediately I install (along
with some of the other automations, the periscope, Keep Track of Formatting,
Prompt to Update Style and loads of others).

Terry

: Suzanne S. Barnhill wrote:
: > I've been using Word for so long that of course I've customized it a
good
: > bit, but whenever I get a new computer, I start from scratch with a
clean
: > copy of Office, and I don't believe that indenting when you press Tab
:
: well I've gone from office 97 through office 2000 and am now on office
: XP, and currently, that is the default setting when I first installed
: Office XP. (I've now turned it off, but it was indeed turned on by
: default when the installation had completed)
:
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

 

[TF]

True. It was unfair to call them non-standard. 'Alternative' would have been
a better choice. But have you listened to any Notes users!

Terry

: TF wrote:
:
: > I work for a company that provides IT management and support for SMEs
and I
: > can absolutely guarantee you that the company with 200 users spread over
: > several sites using a standard MS solution will spend a fraction on
support
: > than a similar company that has splashed out on Linux, Novell, Notes and
: > other non-standard solutions.
:
: Umm I wouldn't call Novell and Notes a "non-standard solution"!!! there
: are still a VERY large number of organisations using both.
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

 

[Gordon]

True. It was unfair to call them non-standard. 'Alternative' would have been
a better choice. But have you listened to any Notes users!

No but I was at one company that used Groupwise! Awful!


--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

 

[TF]

That was installed on freshly formatted disk? No chance that there was a
legacy normal.dot on it? I've never seen that happen before. What version of
Office is it: OEM, retail or licensed media?

Terry

: TF wrote:
: > Gordon
: >
: > Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default. Something
else
: > (incompatible or malicious) on your computer has done that.
:
: A fresh install of office XP on a fresh XP install (before internet
: connection) installed it turned on!
:
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

 

[TF]

A couple of our customers use Groupwise: shudder!

Terry

: TF wrote:
: > True. It was unfair to call them non-standard. 'Alternative' would have
been
: > a better choice. But have you listened to any Notes users!
:
: No but I was at one company that used Groupwise! Awful!
:
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

 

[Gordon]

That was installed on freshly formatted disk? No chance that there was a
legacy normal.dot on it? I've never seen that happen before. What version of
Office is it: OEM, retail or licensed media?

It was a freshly formatted HDD. It's a promotional copy, that I got at a
seminar, and I've slipstreamed SP2 into it.

--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

 

[Amedee Van Gasse]

TF shared this with us in microsoft.public.word.newusers:

I work for a company that provides IT management and support for SMEs
and I can absolutely guarantee you that the company with 200 users
spread over several sites using a standard MS solution will spend a
fraction on support than a similar company that has splashed out on
Linux, Novell, Notes and other non-standard solutions. It is the cost
of supporting these systems that far out-strips the initial purchase
cost. Open Source provides absolutely no benefit to the average
company: all they want is the IT to support their work with minimum
of interruption. A standard solution provides just that.

Terry,

As you may know one of the perpetual adagiums in IT is:
YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)

 

[TF]

Gordon

Unfortunately, it is unlikely that I will ever have a 'fresh' system that
needs Office XP install, so it unlikely that I can corroborate if this is
just a problem with the version on that disk or if it an Office XP-wide
problem. It certainly is an undesirable install though.

Terry

: TF wrote:
: > That was installed on freshly formatted disk? No chance that there was a
: > legacy normal.dot on it? I've never seen that happen before. What
version of
: > Office is it: OEM, retail or licensed media?
: >
:
: It was a freshly formatted HDD. It's a promotional copy, that I got at a
: seminar, and I've slipstreamed SP2 into it.
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>

<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.word.newusers
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2.47.62.81.cust.bluewin.ch 81.62.47.2
Path: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!msrtrans!TK2MSFTNGP08.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl
Lines: 1
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com microsoft.public.word.newusers:73088

Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default.

Actually, Terry, it is in Word 2002 (XP). Drove me (and
everyone else) absolutely nutty until we figured it out. It
was THE FAQ when the version hit the markets.

-- Cindy

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Gordon,

In fact it's happened with MS - the Outlook 2003 pst file format is NOT
backwards compatible!

No, but Outlook 2003 still supports the older file format, so that you can
bring *.pst files forwards (and continue to use them with older versions,
or convert them).

File format compatibility has always been a big discussion, for any
software (not just MS). I remember the uproar when Word changed file
formats, going from 6.0 to 97. (There was also a change from 2.0 to 6.0,
but somehow, that didn't throw as many waves; maybe because 6.0 was so
clearly an improvement.) The thing is, if a program is going to develop,
and be able to do new things, sometimes internal structures MUST change.
I've heard discussions among MS people about: should/can we go forward,
will it break backwards compatibility, and is it worth it.

I suppose we react more strongly / are more sensitized to this with
Office-type products because that's where we're most likely to exchange
files with other people. Used to be, the biggest concern was whether "the
other guy" could open my WP/AmiPro/Word/QuattroPro/1-2-3/Excel file. Now
it's more a version, rather than a product question.

And BTW, when discussing MS vs. other products, this is another reason why
big companies choose MS: highest chances for compatibility when exchanging
files.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Amedee,

however one might argue that some non-MS
systems give IT departments even more control and standardization. It
all depends how well it is implemented. I'm sure you'll agree on the
implementation argument.

Certainly. Then there's also the maintainance aspect, that Terry
pointed out. That's mostly what I was thinking about. Along with being
able to exchange files with other people (see my reply to Gordon).

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question
or reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I'm curious as to why I didn't experience it, then. I bought a new computer
with Office XP installed. I set it up from scratch (didn't import an old
Normal.dot), and I don't recall ever having to change this setting. My
charmed life again, I guess! <g>

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.