Midi Lag Problem

[J.D.]

I'm having a problem with my midi keyboard - plugged into my
soundcard's Joystick/MIDI Port.

I can hear the SoundCard's Synthesizer - but there's at least a
quarter of a second lag - between the time I hit the note on the
Keyboard - and sound comes out of my Computer Speakers.

This is happening in real-time (w/o recording - when I record/playback
- my music is off by the same lag-time).

The Computer is an Asus A7V266-C (1.4 gighz) (AMD-CPU) with on-board
audio C-Media CM18738 PCI audio controller with a game/midi port.
Windows XP home OS.

Using Sonar 1.3.1 -

Here's what I've done so far (no change at all in the MIDI delay)

1. Checked to make sure that the 2-speakers plugged into sound-card
audio are set for stereo (not 5.1)

2. Downloaded and installed the latest drivers from Microsoft and
Asus.com.

3. Tried another midi sequencer (freeware) with the same result.

4. Also tried a Wind Controller - and still the same delay.

4. I've looked thru the Device Manager & Control Panel - and have
tried several things / still same result (set them back as they were
after).

5. I'm using a midi track (with no F/X plug in's). I've tweaked
different parameter in the track - but still not the slightest change.

I've done some on-line research - and have noted that AMD & Soundcard
combinations can have problems. But since the sound/midi is on the
motherboard - this doesn't seem like it would be the case.

Any help at all would be appreciated.
(remove nospam from e-mail address)

Thanks,

J.D.

 

[deco_time]

I'm having a problem with my midi keyboard - plugged into my
soundcard's Joystick/MIDI Port.

I can hear the SoundCard's Synthesizer - but there's at least a
quarter of a second lag - between the time I hit the note on the
Keyboard - and sound comes out of my Computer Speakers.

You need an audio card. Have a look at M-audio offering, I'm suggesting
an Audiophile 2496, that's what I use and lag is gone, not to mention
the INCREDIBLE sound clarity compared to the C-media chip, it's a whole
new listening experience.

 

[Anon]

Hi,

the delay is caused by the software wavetable that You use.

Typically, onboard sound does not have a hardware MIDI synth, so in order to
hear MIDI sound a software has to be used to emulate it. "Wavetable" here
means the synth consists of a collection of sounds in *.WAV-format ordered
in a MIDI compatible table. When You hit a key on Your keyboard these
*.WAV-sounds are being played back slower or faster to create the actual
pitch of the note.

Most onboard sound systems come with either a Yamaha or a Roland compatible
software synth. These are not intended to be used for playing music in
realtime. They are to be used for the background music in games or for
playing music files in *.MID-format. All of them have a delay of about a
quarter second or even half a second.

In order to play music in real time with a keyboard attached to the computer
one needs a fast computer and a software synth that has a low delay time.
There are quite a lot of them, made by Edirol, Steinberg etc. for example.
You do NOT need a new hardware sound card.

Some time ago I tried VSampler 2. Even on my old PI-233MHz machine it did
not have a notable delay! That was really amazing. I could not use too many
sounds at once, of course. They now have version 3 that is even more
advanced (the old version 2 is still available for download for free, with
the only limitation that one cannot save anything - no sounds and no songs).
It can be found here:

http://www.maz-sound.de/index.php

Even if You did not like it You could still use it for testing. The reason
why I recommend this one is that You can download sounds for it for free on
many web sites which are a lot superior to the wave table MIDI sound that
You use now.

I am sure that You will get a very short delay only, hardly notable.

Kind regards,
Lutz.

 

[Veli-Pekka Tatila]

> the delay is caused by the software wavetable that You use.

Hey, I was going to reply just the same. Good that you did it first.


I know it's not relevant here as you went on explaning things all right,
but isn't the term wavetable clearly wrong in here? Most people call these
things sample playback synths or just romplers.

Wavetable refers to a different type of synthesis all together such as
something like on the Korg WaveStation. People sometimes incorrectly call
sample playback cards wavetable synths, because sound card manufacturers,
such as Creative Labs, used this term to hype there synthesis refering to
the fact that the samples were stored in a table in RAM. Umm wouldn't a more
programming oriented term been sample array or lookup table synthesis but
that's not hip, is it.

Typically, onboard sound does not have a hardware MIDI synth, so in
order to hear MIDI sound a software has to be used to emulate it.

And in some cases, even if the hardware has got sample playback
capabilities, the softsynth is still bundled. Take the Sound Blaster Live
for example, they still bundle the Creative Software Synth with it even
though it supports Sound Fonts in hardware.

*.WAV-sounds are being played back slower
or faster to create the actual pitch of the note.

Or with no pitch shifting if you happen to hit the key corresponding to the
pitch of the original sample.

not intended to be used for
playing music in realtime.

Speaking of which, I'd like to ask a few things about the Microsoft GS
Wavetable Synth available after installing DirectX 8 or later. I know it is
Microsoft's software sample playback synth and has some licensed early 90s
Roland GS set in it, the same thing Apple licensed years ago for QuickTime.
Anyway, I was just wondering if that synh could be used in sequencers in
real time?

I've found the delay varies. It's pretty horrible in Win2k but the synth
seems to be almost playable in Win XP. Do you know of any software that
let's me CUT the buffers a bit more and redirect the output through another
sound card that has got a better DirectSound implementation?

Also, I know the thing can load different sound banks in the DLS format as
demonstrated by Winamp's MIDI plug-in, are there any sequencer support or
Windows utilities for switching these banks?

Originally the MIcrosoft soft synth is ment to be used in DirectMusic
applications to provide quality MIDis with custom sample sets and all. I've
even seen a DIrectMusic creator program from Microsoft which let's one tweak
the buffers and load sound banks etc... The problem is that I'd like to use
this for sequencing, not for DirectMusic applications directly (no pun
intended). Hmm, would DIrectMusic compatibility in a sequencer program help?

 

[Peter Zegelin]

> Hi,

the delay is caused by the software wavetable that You use.

Typically, onboard sound does not have a hardware MIDI synth, so in order to
hear MIDI sound a software has to be used to emulate it. "Wavetable" here
means the synth consists of a collection of sounds in *.WAV-format ordered
in a MIDI compatible table. When You hit a key on Your keyboard these
*.WAV-sounds are being played back slower or faster to create the actual
pitch of the note.

Most onboard sound systems come with either a Yamaha or a Roland compatible
software synth. These are not intended to be used for playing music in
realtime. They are to be used for the background music in games or for
playing music files in *.MID-format. All of them have a delay of about a
quarter second or even half a second.

It might be worth pointing out that Mac OS X also uses a similar
software synth (Roland I believe) and there is no perceptible delay even
with an older mac (700 MHz). When I hit the keyboard I get the note
without any delay. So in short, its not the software synth - its the
operating system or maybe a sucky sound card.

Peter

 

[Gareth Jones]

I'm having a problem with my midi keyboard - plugged into my
soundcard's Joystick/MIDI Port.

I can hear the SoundCard's Synthesizer - but there's at least a
quarter of a second lag - between the time I hit the note on the
Keyboard - and sound comes out of my Computer Speakers.

I've done some on-line research - and have noted that AMD & Soundcard
combinations can have problems. But since the sound/midi is on the
motherboard - this doesn't seem like it would be the case.

Just a couple of points to add to the other guys.
There were some previous AMD based issues (not with your particular
problem BTW) but these were mainly chipset issues, therefore it IS the
motherboard that's the problem in these cases.

But for you, latency is the problem. Have a look if there any setting to
reduce this (or it may be called 'buffer size' or similar).

As has been mentioned, if you get some third party software like Reason
(you can download a working demo from the Propellerheads website - I'd
do this to try) you MAY be able to turn the latency down enough to get
it to work.
But then again....... it depends on your soundcard, some built in ones
are so bad that the buffer size will get so low at any useful latency,
you'll get crackling and pops all over the place. The only alternative
then is a new soundcard with low latency ASIO drivers or a hardware
synth module.
--
__________________________________________________
Personal email for Gareth Jones can be sent to:
'usenet4gareth' followed by an at symbol
followed by 'uk2' followed by a dot
followed by 'net'
__________________________________________________

 

[Dave Wiz]

I'm having a problem with my midi keyboard - plugged into my
soundcard's Joystick/MIDI Port.

I can hear the SoundCard's Synthesizer - but there's at least a
quarter of a second lag - between the time I hit the note on the
Keyboard - and sound comes out of my Computer Speakers......

Had exactly the same problem myself.
I replaced the card which is the same as you have for a soundblaster audigy
and so the latency dissapeared completly.
The problem I have now is with clicks and pops but its a lot better than it
was.
Dave

 

[J.D.]

To everyone who posted in response to my midi problem!

Thanks for the help & insight! I'll need to get a real sound card
instead of using the "virtual" one on the MB.

I plan to get a dedicated DAW in the near future (Intel 4 / - 2 or >
Ghz.) - Upgrade to Sonar 3.0 & get a real sound card /midi interface
- and a real keyboard/synth.

For right now - I'm just trying to experiment with the newer plug-ins
that are around - Also wanted to make some midi accompaniment
backgrounds to help me practice guitar & learn pedal/lap steel guitar.

Thanks Again,

J.D.

 

[Jeffery S. Jones]

Hey, I was going to reply just the same. Good that you did it first.


I know it's not relevant here as you went on explaning things all right,
but isn't the term wavetable clearly wrong in here? Most people call these
things sample playback synths or just romplers.

Not in the USA, especially for soundcard/PC synths. Anyway, the
soft synth isn't a rompler because it doesn't have a ROM (the samples
are in RAM), though the engine is essentiall the same as a hardware
sampler using ROM.

Wavetable refers to a different type of synthesis all together such as
something like on the Korg WaveStation. People sometimes incorrectly call
sample playback cards wavetable synths, because sound card manufacturers,
such as Creative Labs, used this term to hype there synthesis refering to
the fact that the samples were stored in a table in RAM. Umm wouldn't a more
programming oriented term been sample array or lookup table synthesis but
that's not hip, is it.

It isn't likely to change, not after 20 or so years of calling the
things wavetables.

And in some cases, even if the hardware has got sample playback
capabilities, the softsynth is still bundled. Take the Sound Blaster Live
for example, they still bundle the Creative Software Synth with it even
though it supports Sound Fonts in hardware.

It adds on to the range of sound options.

Also, WinXP includes Microsoft's software synth, and it is installed
by default. You don't have to use it, but it will be available.
Win2k and ME also may have it (it comes with DirectX).

Or with no pitch shifting if you happen to hit the key corresponding to the
pitch of the original sample.


Speaking of which, I'd like to ask a few things about the Microsoft GS
Wavetable Synth available after installing DirectX 8 or later. I know it is
Microsoft's software sample playback synth and has some licensed early 90s
Roland GS set in it, the same thing Apple licensed years ago for QuickTime.
Anyway, I was just wondering if that synh could be used in sequencers in
real time?

No -- there is no adjustment for its latency. The only issue is the
sound card, which may *add* to it but can't reduce its internal
processing delay.

I've found the delay varies. It's pretty horrible in Win2k but the synth
seems to be almost playable in Win XP. Do you know of any software that
let's me CUT the buffers a bit more and redirect the output through another
sound card that has got a better DirectSound implementation?

Use any DXi or VSTi soft synth with an appropriate host, such as
Sonar or Cubase. Even with the motherboard soundcard, you should be
able to do latency of about 20ms or less.

Also, I know the thing can load different sound banks in the DLS format as
demonstrated by Winamp's MIDI plug-in, are there any sequencer support or
Windows utilities for switching these banks?

Not as far as I know. They never really meant for it to be played
with musically (sigh), even though much of the potential is there.

Originally the MIcrosoft soft synth is ment to be used in DirectMusic
applications to provide quality MIDis with custom sample sets and all. I've
even seen a DIrectMusic creator program from Microsoft which let's one tweak
the buffers and load sound banks etc... The problem is that I'd like to use
this for sequencing, not for DirectMusic applications directly (no pun
intended). Hmm, would DIrectMusic compatibility in a sequencer program help?

Nope.