Microsoft Security Bulletin MS03-040 - 828750

  • Thread starter Jerry Bryant [MSFT]
  • Start date
W

whoever

I would think that YOUR company wants to know about potential problems
as soon as possible - before it becomes a real problem - event if this
means that some OTHER company has to suffer for not preparing for the
problem. This is not possible by *only* relying on an AV vendor to
notify you about Microsoft's problems.

RPC was vulnerable for *5 YEARS* before blaster came along. It only took 3
weeks after Microsoft informed the world about the potential problem for an
exploit to be released.

Do I want Microsoft telling the "black hats" as soon as they know about a
vulnerability, so that they can get working on an exploit that will marshal
the resources of the millions of machines out there that are owned and
managed by people who won't/can't respond to a notification from MS, so
that they can take down the internet, or would I rather wait until there's
a patch available?

I'd rather wait.
 
S

S. Pidgorny

This isn't entirely true... MS RPC was vulnerable for more than 6 years -
remember, NT4 was released back in 1996, and previous versions are still
unpatched and will never be (I haven't seen NT3.51 in production lately but
I'm sure there is some).

Also, the RPC problem wasn't discovered by Microsoft. MS honestly believed
that RPC is not vulnerable until independent researchers came up with
extensive testing tool set and found... the problem. They gave some time to
Microsoft, then released a PoC exploit that became the virus in three
weeks. At that time all of my servers were patched for some three weeks ;)

Blackhats could have discovered the problem and released the virus - that
doesn't happen, because people who are capable of discovering
vulnerabilities in closed source mature code are intelligent enough not to
become criminals. Or perhaps the "blackhats" are just stupid punks.

Finally: crossposting is bad.
 
S

Sandi - Microsoft MVP

Me2 said:
Whoever, Jim,

Your arguments are biased to protect Microsoft's assets, not yours or the
company you work for.

What company do you think Jim works for?

--
Install the latest IE cumulative patch for protection against QHost:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/security_bulletins/ms03-040.asp
More information about QHosts can be found here:
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer/darnit_3.htm#qhost
________________________________________
Sandi - Microsoft MVP since 1999 (IE/OE)
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
 
S

Sandi - Microsoft MVP

A note of information from Symantec:

"How often are virus definitions posted?"
"During "non-alert" situations, Symantec Security Response posts virus
definitions to the LiveUpdate servers *once per week* (usually Wednesdays).
However, during "alert" situations, virus definitions are posted to the
LiveUpdate servers as soon as they have completed full quality assurance
testing."

Hah. CA (Etrust and Vet) update daily (and they provide update lists so you
can see exactly what changes were made - no 'pretend' updates like a company
who shall remain nameless in the past did). During times of crisis they
update as often during the day as is required to cover the latest info/tweak
of the virus.

Considering Norton's history of troublesome updates, I take their "quality
assurance" comment with a very big grain of sale.
--
Install the latest IE cumulative patch for protection against QHost:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/security_bulletins/ms03-040.asp
More information about QHosts can be found here:
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer/darnit_3.htm#qhost
________________________________________
Sandi - Microsoft MVP since 1999 (IE/OE)
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
 
R

Robert Folkerts

There are many classes of Blackhats. I don't see any reason that some
blackhats could not have been using this for years. There are governmental
and organized crime groups that certainly have the resources to hire IT
experts and have them look for this sort of vulnereability. These groups
would simply use this sort of vulnerability without anouncing it.

I agree with most of your points, but this sort of vulnerability has a lot
more uses than being used by a nihlistic virus writer looking to cause
havoc.
 
B

Bill Sanderson

I've seen a number of posts from Alpha hardware users looking for this
patch. It doesn't exist, as far as I know--they must use the workarounds.
 
M

Me2

Whoever,

<I wearily expostulate onward...>

whoever said:
RPC was vulnerable for *5 YEARS* before blaster came along. It only took 3
weeks after Microsoft informed the world about the potential problem for an
exploit to be released.

Do I want Microsoft telling the "black hats" as soon as they know about a
vulnerability, so that they can get working on an exploit that will marshal
the resources of the millions of machines out there that are owned and
managed by people who won't/can't respond to a notification from MS, so
that they can take down the internet, or would I rather wait until there's
a patch available?

I'd rather wait.
You are right in that Microsoft (or any other manufacture) should NOT
release information about a vulnerability - if there are NO "black hats"
who are publicly talking about, testing, or actively exploiting (even in a
small way). No argument here.

What is the best thing for your company (or personal assets) if there ARE
black hats publicly talking about, testing AND there is initial exploits
going around? To say nothing - cross your fingers?

In the case of the "object tag" vulnerability (MS03-040), it was publicly
talked about, tests were happing, THEN active exploits started to appear
(qhosts for one). Ether Microsoft needed to release a patch "right now" or
issue some kind of warning - *with* instructions on how to prevent the
outbreak - like stop using IE on the Internet or whatever. Microsoft choose
to wait (crossing their fingers) until MS03-040 was released (putting their
customers in peril for a short time ~ one week).

This turned out ok, since no nasty bug showed up (yet) while the patch was
readied. While this decision was good for the masses and good for
Microsoft - it put my company at risk - admittedly for short time (But I did
not know the patch was immanent at the time when I was doggedly calling
Microsoft and getting stonewalled! [Yes we know Trojan horse programs are
bad - see you AV vendor...]

I am very happy that the patch was released (it validated my sense of
urgency in the matter). Will there be other companies and tons of home
users who will not install MS03-040 on all workstations - very likely. I
can not help that. I have seen the disruption caused by waiting. Others
are un-un-aware of the risks - Microsoft won't tell them. (Why? Because its
bad for their image, bad for their sales - basic business 101 - that is
until a disaster happens - then they will pull out the disaster response
plan with lots of media attentions. Microsoft is a company - their people
are good - but sometimes a corporation is blinded to what they are doing -
until its too late (i.e. Enron, WorldCom, etc.))

Do you know what is being talked about by the black hats now? What is being
tested? There are at least *30* potential vulnerabilities publicly being
presented. What is going to happen when the next exploit shows up and
Microsoft delays while getting the patch out? It is possible that only some
10000 systems will be infected before the decision tips so that Microsoft
will need to issue the instructions for prevention? What if you are part of
this 10000?

When was it that viruses started effecting Microsoft OSes and apps? DOS v3
or was it v1. When was that? *1984* - almost 20 years ago. They just
started noticing? I don't buy this.

Me out
 
M

Me2

Sandi,

A note of information from CA:
"Q: What is the release schedule for InoculateIT signature updates? "
"A: Responding to customers' requests, Computer Associates is switching to
daily signature updates. Starting Monday, September 16, 2002, virus
signature updates for eTrust Antivirus 6 / eTrust InoculateIT 6 will be
released daily *on U.S. working days.* The daily signature updates are
released during the afternoon hours Eastern Time. Signature updates for
Inoculan / InoculateIT 4.x will continue to be released on *Mondays and
Thursdays* and as required during virus emergencies. "

Hah, on your own on Saturday and Sunday!

AV can mop up and prevent only after the destruction has started... Maybe
you are first, maybe you are a lucky second - you don't get a choice. Maybe
it starts on a Friday night...

Me out
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

You can see how "NDA logic" applies here.

A key thing to look for when signing an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)
is whether it applies to information that is no longer private (for
whatever reason). A "good" NDA will remove restrictions on
information that is already public, whereas one that applies to
information whether it is public or not amounts to a gagging order.

For example, if I got you to sign an NDA that stated "anything you
hear during the following seminar is private and must not be repeated
in public", I could stand up and say "our product sucks" as my
introduction. You would now be gagged from denigrating our product,
because you heard it here, even if you didn't hear it here first.

OTOH a "good" NDA would leave you free to say "their product sucks" -
you just wouldn't be allowed to say "their own CEO says their product
sucks" until someone else made that information public.


In that spirit, a publically unknown hole can be treated as a private
matter (and should scramble an urgent chase to fix - 3 years is a long
time not to do this for something as evil as that RPC hole, suggesting
it was privately unknown too).

Once publically exploited, the cat is out of the bag and there is IMO
an obligation for the vendor to 'fess up.

If they have a patch; good.

If they don't have a patch, then tell us how to wall out that
functionality for safety - even if it means having to concede that the
design or coding of that functionality is so poor that we should have
second thoughts about ever using it again.

If the functionality is so embedded that it can't be walled off, then
this is urgent product quality information that is crucial to rational
planning - once again, it's information that cannot be withheld.

You can't trumpet market forces as an acceptable referee and then rig
the game. The law recognises that in all sorts of ways, such as
"insider trading", for example. Continuing to cover up a defect when
it is publically exploited and thus a very clear and present danger to
consumers crosses that line, and spreads beyond the security debate.


Better yet, make sure you never geat into that situation. You know
there will always be coding defects, so you have to forego the hubris
of thinking that old safety standards are fuddy-duddy stuff you can
prance around with impunity. Never eat anything bigger than your own
head; never code a monolithic system that is bigger than your ability
to maintain fine-grain code quality and know/test *exactly* how
everthing works in practice, for all possible permutations.

For a long time, modular program design was a big buzzword. There
were good reasons for that, and those reasons haven't gone away.
When was it that viruses started effecting Microsoft OSes and apps? DOS v3
or was it v1. When was that? *1984* - almost 20 years ago. They just
started noticing? I don't buy this.

The nature of the problem changed - and the reason isn't simply the
"oh it's so difficult!" cop-out excuse (i.e. that modern code is so
complex, we should abandon expectations that it works out of the box).

In the DOS days, what the user needed to know was this:

1) Files ending in .exe, .com and .bat are programs
2) Don't run programs unless you trust them
3) Don't boot off untrusted diskettes

The frontier was well-defined, and 99.99% of attacks were made at the
SE level. In fact I don't know of any attacks that breached the
frontier design as enumerated above - not one.


Now it would have been possible to evolve today's complexity while
maintaining a frontier that was as well-defined as above; perhaps with
even more user friendliness than above, something like...

1) Files with red triangle icons are programs
2) Don't run programs unless you trust them
3) Don't boot off untrusted media

If you could trust data to not act as programs, a whole slew of
problems go away - web page attacks, document malware, no-click email
attacks, auto-running CD attacks.

If you contuinued a sense of frontier awareness within the boundries
of the network, you'd have fewer escalation risks to worry about.
With no scripting inherent in "View As Web Page", every write-shared
folder would no longer be a land-mine opportunity. With \AutoRun.inf
processing for HD volumes disabled, and write-shared volume root need
not be a landmine opportunity. With those dumb-ass "admin shares"
disabled, we could follow good LAN sharing practice and never expose
the startup axis or system code base, and wouldn't have to care about
password discipline or efficacy in that context.

As it is, our struggle slogan "an injury to one is an injury to all!"
applies, and that's not in a *good* way :)


That's why the situation is spiralling out of control.

The need for corporates to centrally-administer PCs was allowed to
override the need for home users to retain the meaning of the word
"home" (a physical location where safety can be assumed).

The need for web sites to manipulate users for marketing purposes was
allowed to override the user's safety needs, and once HTML was the web
standard, no-one had the clue to see why simply using this as-is as a
system-wide "rich text" standard (including email) was a Bad Idea.

The need to spare CD-ROM vendors from having to explain how to "click
Start, Run, enter ?:\RUN where ? is your CD drive letter" left us with
auto-running CDs; can't see what it is until it's already run itself.

And the data/program distinction is well and truly hosed, to the point
that extensions are hidden and "leaky" (i.e. even if you can see the
..ext, it can lo longer be relied upon). So much nicer for programs
and shortcuts to have their own unique icons, even if it means there's
no replacement way to tell what is a program and what isn't.


The frontier is so fuzzy, that it's near impossible for the average
user to practice "safe hex". And there is so much "dancing with
wolves" going on that even if the design doesn't give malware a free
backstage pass, there's such a maze of little band-aids to shore up
the frontier that code defect opportunities will abound.

Today's malware mainly exploits bad software design, i.e. the
opportunities presented by the users' inability to assess the full
risk their actions facilitate. I don't expect "reading message text",
"visiting a web site" and "reading a document" to be conferring
programming rights to those entities, but they do.

Today, user and vendor share responsibility for malware outbreaks; the
user, for not practicing "safe hex", and the vendor, for undermining
the user's ability to practice "safe hex".

Tomorrow's malware may focus mainly on code defects rather than simply
leverage poor software design. In this case, the user's
responsibility is completely bypassed, and the vendor's responsibility
is manifest. Unless we make special rules for the software industry
to let them off the hook ("oh, it's so difficult!" etc.), there is no
question who to blame where a product defect is the cause of the
problem and the user's ability to manage this is sidelined.

The above is the wider context in which to assess the answer to "if
the vendor knows of a defect that's being exploited In The Wild,
should users be informed and advised how to protect themselves?"


------------ ----- --- -- - - - -
Drugs are usually safe. Inject? (Y/n)
 
S

S. Pidgorny

Probably an NT4 end of life issue :(

I heard MS will have Windows for Opteron/AMD64 - we'll soon see
multiplatform Windows again...
 
S

SG

Maybe
you are first, maybe you are a lucky second - you don't get a choice. Maybe
it starts on a Friday night...<<<

"Maybe" this thread will end "Friday", hey that's today :>)

All the best,
 
S

Sandi - Microsoft MVP

Hah, on your own on Saturday and Sunday!

Nope. Vet which is updated any day of the week required, and if the need is
Saturday or Sunday I get it (Etrust does the same.. its just Vet rebadged
anyway).

--
Install the latest IE cumulative patch for protection against QHost:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/security_bulletins/ms03-040.asp
More information about QHosts can be found here:
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer/darnit_3.htm#qhost
________________________________________
Sandi - Microsoft MVP since 1999 (IE/OE)
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
 
J

Jim Eshelman

Since today is my birthday, and because I haven't seen George in ever so
long, I'm declaring it ended.

Of course, nobody has to listen to me! <vbg>

you are first, maybe you are a lucky second - you don't get a choice. Maybe
it starts on a Friday night...<<<

"Maybe" this thread will end "Friday", hey that's today :>)

All the best,
 
P

PCR

Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday, dear E....shel..man,
Haaaapy Biiiirthdaaaay to youuuuu.
Yeaaaaaa!

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
should things get worse after this,
PCR
(e-mail address removed)
| Since today is my birthday, and because I haven't seen George in ever
so
| long, I'm declaring it ended.
|
| Of course, nobody has to listen to me! <vbg>
|
| | >>>Maybe
| you are first, maybe you are a lucky second - you don't get a choice.
Maybe
| it starts on a Friday night...<<<
|
| "Maybe" this thread will end "Friday", hey that's today :>)
|
| All the best,
| --
| George Aker aka SG
| NOTE: Please post to the group...email is invalid.
|
|
| | > Sandi,
|
|
|
 
G

George \(Bindar Dundat\)

Happy Birthday Jim and I am deleting this thread AGAIN. I'm out of here. It's
time to get out of discussion mode and back to doing support like we intended to
begin with.

--
George (Bindar Dundat ©) MS-MVP
This information is provided "AS IS"
It may even be wrong!
For Windows Troubleshooting Tips see;
9x/ME http://aumha.org/win4/a/tshoot.htm
2000/XP http://aumha.org/win5/a/tshoot.htm
| Since today is my birthday, and because I haven't seen George in ever so
| long, I'm declaring it ended.
|
| Of course, nobody has to listen to me! <vbg>
|
| | >>>Maybe
| you are first, maybe you are a lucky second - you don't get a choice. Maybe
| it starts on a Friday night...<<<
|
| "Maybe" this thread will end "Friday", hey that's today :>)
|
| All the best,
| --
| George Aker aka SG
| NOTE: Please post to the group...email is invalid.
|
|
| | > Sandi,
|
|
|
 
S

SG

Since today is my birthday, and because I haven't seen George in ever so
long, I'm declaring it ended.<<<

Well Jim I'll take up a little more space here to say Howdy and HAPPY BIRTHDAY.
I've been lurking in the dark for quite some time now, but usually to busy to help out much.

All the best,
--
George Aker aka SG
NOTE: Please post to the group...email is invalid.





"Jim Eshelman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
 
P

PCR

Won't you stay for a slice of cake? Tea & crumpets?

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
should things get worse after this,
PCR
(e-mail address removed)
| Happy Birthday Jim and I am deleting this thread AGAIN. I'm out of
here. It's
| time to get out of discussion mode and back to doing support like we
intended to
| begin with.
|
| --
| George (Bindar Dundat ©) MS-MVP
| This information is provided "AS IS"
| It may even be wrong!
| For Windows Troubleshooting Tips see;
| 9x/ME http://aumha.org/win4/a/tshoot.htm
| 2000/XP http://aumha.org/win5/a/tshoot.htm
| | | Since today is my birthday, and because I haven't seen George in
ever so
| | long, I'm declaring it ended.
| |
| | Of course, nobody has to listen to me! <vbg>
| |
| | | | >>>Maybe
| | you are first, maybe you are a lucky second - you don't get a
choice. Maybe
| | it starts on a Friday night...<<<
| |
| | "Maybe" this thread will end "Friday", hey that's today :>)
| |
| | All the best,
| | --
| | George Aker aka SG
| | NOTE: Please post to the group...email is invalid.
| |
| |
| | | | > Sandi,
| |
| |
| |
|
 
M

Me2

CQuirke, you're a smart cookie! Bravo!

Thank you for speaking out and illuminating the risks inherent in widening
the surface area of software. I have been kicking and screaming for years
about this kind of stuff and have implemented many schemes to reduce the
possibility that users will shoot themselves in the foot (in a corporate
environment). But every year, more and more "flexibility" is build in and
over the last few years I have give up fighting it. Now I see many
administrators who don't even see a problem. Until a black had rubs their
nose in it...

cquirke (MVP Win9x) said:
The above [see below] is the wider context in which to assess the answer to "if
the vendor knows of a defect that's being exploited In The Wild,
should users be informed and advised how to protect themselves?"

I'm glad someone can see though the technology out to the real world. "Risk
management" what a non-techie thing to think about! I re-read many of your
posts and see that you are explaining the situation well - somewhat as I see
things anyway. Microsoft should hire you. But then that M$ sales thing
might blunt your sharp points...

I understand that if you buy an new computer today with Microsoft software,
bring it home, plug it in, wham! - in seconds - your PC is infected - ,
reboot, reboot, reboot, install, reboot, repair, reboot go to fixit shop,
bring it back... Interestingly - I hear from some - the incompetent user is
at fault?
The nature of the problem changed - and the reason isn't simply the
"oh it's so difficult!" cop-out excuse (i.e. that modern code is so
complex, we should abandon expectations that it works out of the box).

In the DOS days, what the user needed to know was this:

1) Files ending in .exe, .com and .bat are programs
2) Don't run programs unless you trust them
3) Don't boot off untrusted diskettes

The frontier was well-defined, and 99.99% of attacks were made at the
SE level. In fact I don't know of any attacks that breached the
frontier design as enumerated above - not one.

Yes, until 1988. Least we forget the Internet worm of 1988. I worked with
DEC systems at universities and I remember it well. Did Microsoft
architecture teams just forget? Maybe. Likely, every time someone
inside Microsoft would say that adding a feature had a risk associated with
it - someone else would counter with the "it's good for sales" thing.

[See: http://world.std.com/~franl/worm.html for more info on the Internet
worm.]

As a result of the 1988 Internet worm Unix vendors (95% of the Internet at
the time) understood the problem and wrote future software with this in
mind. In the late 1990s web expansion of the Internet - the 1988 lesson was
ignored by Microsoft. This is partly why they have this state of affairs.

At the risk of sounding like W.C., you are still thinking in terms of
the "virus infects computer" model. AV intercede on file operations
and keep a PC clean - but they cannot do anything to clean the entire
infosphere (the concept is absurd) or block DoS effects - and av don't
do anything at all within the risk management field.

I agree! Anyone who is relying on an AV vendor to *stop* the next Internet
bug should have their head examined. The AV vendors are doing a good job of
mopping up after the mess Microsoft has made. I for one do not want to get
caught with my pants down. If 9/11 taught us anything - it taught us to
expect the possible.

Anti-virus vendors ARE doing a good job of monitoring - something that
Microsoft is apparently wholly lacking in.

Microsofts latest stop gap measuers "Microsoft smears lipstick on a pig"
will only help to a small degree. [i.e.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/oct03/10-09SecurityInvestmentsPR.asp]

Here we go again: As broadcast on NTBUGTRAQ
today (10/10/03):
Dear (e-mail address removed),
There are few bad news on RPC DCOM vulnerability:

1. Universal exploit for MS03-039 exists in-the-wild,
PINK FLOYD is again actual.
2. It was reported by exploit author (and confirmed),
Windows XP SP1 with all security fixes installed still
vulnerable to variant of the same bug. Windows 2000/2003
was not tested. For a while only DoS exploit exists, but
code execution is probably possible. Technical details are
sent to Microsoft, waiting for confirmation.
--
http://www.security.nnov.ru
/\_/\
{ , . } |\
+--oQQo->{ ^ }<-----+ \
| ZARAZA U 3APA3A }
+-------------o66o--+ /
|/
You know my name - look up my number (The Beatles)

The "infosphere" looks like it's beyond our control - maybe the "malware" on
the Internet is just a natural extension of our (life's) basic instinct
for "survival of the fittest", evolution - that kind of thing.

What is the solution?

There is no absolute solution. Its a kind of natural war with the
offensive,
containment, defense and coexistence we all know about. Offensive tactics
like law enforcement have a limited effect when the perp can hide around
the world. Containment can be achieved at various levels within a system
(network of machines). I have network containment controls (bulkhead
controls) but when it comes to an individual machine - Microsoft's software
architecture is out of my control - only Microsoft will decide to make
containment within the kernel and user levels easier with compartmentalized
design. UI compartmentization - Microsoft has gone to lengths to blend this
level into a mash of indistinguishable S#@% - well - you say it nicely:
And the data/program distinction is well and truly hosed, to the point
that extensions are hidden and "leaky" (i.e. even if you can see the
.ext, it can lo longer be relied upon). So much nicer for programs
and shortcuts to have their own unique icons, even if it means there's
no replacement way to tell what is a program and what isn't.

Defensive tactics is something we (administrators and Microsoft) have more
control over than any other in the short term. We bolster defenses every
day with firewalls, AV, patching, etc. This will work to a good degree -
but we suffer when the enemy finds a weakness in the wall or adapts to the
defenses at the gates.

If I want to protect *my data* (i.e. the "queen", nucleus or DNA, etc). How
do I do it? With layers of defense that the enemy needs to circumvent.
Alas, Windows makes this very hard.

Like you, I find it exceeding hard to isolate and control *my data* from
Windows and installed programs. Even a program assembly is sliced up and
stashed all over the place in Windows - some pieces in "program files",
%windir%, system and/or system32, the registry (user and system) and/or some
other odd place.

What happened to storing one program in one directory with rights?
What happened to storing *my data* in one directory with access controls?

The "user profile" directory is a travesty that tries to store a user's data
in one spot - in a complex way. Some of the user data and settings are
stored in hidden directories (desktop, shortcuts, etc), some is stashed in a
slice of the "registry". Some of it gets stored around the disk in various
program directories - there is no standard - every version of Windows
changes the scheme. Moving a users data between one PC and another is a
nightmare - users hate it and grumble every time - unless administrators
"fix" the situation somewhat.

<sorry, I am rambling, I'm going to quit this thread...>

* * * *

The next virus/worm/trojan that comes walking through MY door - through the
firewall, past the antivirus (with the latest up-to-the-minute updates ---
some forget this fact), past the email scanners - like Trojan.QHosts did -
And Microsoft says "sorry not our problem - see the AV vendor" - I'm going
to shout bloody murder again - even louder - like it will help...

Me out
 
J

Jim Eshelman

PCR said:
Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday, dear E....shel..man,
Haaaapy Biiiirthdaaaay to youuuuu.
Yeaaaaaa!

Thank you, PCR. :))

Hey, where are you located anyway? I've gotten nice birthday wishes from
three continents today... still haven't heard from Asia, Africa, or South
America.
 
J

Jim Eshelman

SG said:
Well Jim I'll take up a little more space here to say Howdy and HAPPY
BIRTHDAY.
I've been lurking in the dark for quite some time now, but usually to
busy to help out much.

Thanks, George. I understand the scrunch -- been there myself enough lately.
Don't be a stranger. (Drop my the "smaller pond" of my site forum sometime.)

--
Jim Eshelman, MS-MVP Windows
http://aumha.org/
http://WinSupportCenter.com/

Did you find this newsgroup on the web? A newsreader like Outlook Express
will make your online life a lot easier. Get better help! See:
http://aumha.org/win4/supp1b.htm and
http://support.microsoft.com/support/news/howto/default.asp
 

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