Microsoft MVPs

[Thomas A. Rowe]

There are no standards, just recommendations.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
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[Al Sparber]

There are no standards, just recommendations.

That's technically true. But it's not an answer that provides a solution


CSS2.1 is a finished specification. IE6 supports about 90% of the
specification. Newer browsers support about 98%. How is a web developer
supposed to use CSS unless he knows which browsers support which
properties? Is there a constructive solution anywhere in this thread?

Tune in to Microsoft's Channel 9 site to see what Microsoft developers
and engineers think about standards. I think you'll be surprised that
they are not only for them, they are also part of the W3C.

I would bet that IE7 (or the version that ships with Longhorn) will have
terrific support for CSS2.1 "recommendations". Not for any other reason
than to give web developers the tools they need to use CSS and have
sites be as stable on IE as they are on Firefox.

I'd put some money on that


--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs
are scheduled for next Tuesday".

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

If there were "standards", then every browser would support the same features/functions in the same
manner and we wouldn't have to be concerned at all about browsers, just building great web sites.

BTW: My solution is to not use CSS for positioning, etc. and to stick fairly close to the HTML 3.2
recommendations which are supported by all current browsers.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Kevin Spencer]

You call them recommendations. I call them standards. No matter what name
you give to them, they exist, and must be reckoned with.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

There is a big difference between those two words.

Recommendations: are suggestions

Standards: established/setup by authority
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Kevin Spencer]

There is a big difference between those two words.

So, are you saying that they don't need to be reckoned with? Or are you
arguing a moot point?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Yes, you have to deal with the various browser issues, if you want to implement features and
function in a cross-browser manner.

However, since there are no "standards", the browser makers are free to add features or support/not
support features.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[David Baxter]

Exactly my point, Thomas.

There are no standards, just recommendations.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[David Baxter]

Why "must" they be reckoned with? With the exception of web designers,
more than 90% of the world is still using browsers which either don't
care or don't support those recommendations.

I keep hearing dire warnings along the lines of "if you don't conform,
in the near future your visitors won't be able to view your pages" but I
don't see it happening...

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Why "must" they be reckoned with?

Apparently you don't work on professional sites.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Let me put it this way. How come you can view the same web page in different
browsers? Because they all use HTML. They don't each use their own "flavor"
of HTML. They adhere to a standard ("recommendation" from Tom's point of
view). If they didn't, you would need a proprietary program to view each
different web site. Much the same as needing a proprietary program to open a
Word document.

It's all about usability. Whether you acknowledge the need for standards
("recommendations" or not, browser manufacturers do, and they try to adhere
to them (whatever "they" are). Usability and cross-platform compatibility
are achieved in Internet technologies by standards that various software
companies try to adhere to.

If it wasn't fort "standards" there would be no JavaScript, no HTML, not
even TCP/IP. And all of our lives would be a lot simpler, since we wouldn't
have to write apps that can talk across networks.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Bob Lehmann]

I didn't say MS couldn't extend IE's functionality. They can do whatever
they want.


I'm still wondering what you mean by "Maybe NN7.1, Opera 7.54, and Firefox
should get their acts together"? Or do you not know what you meant?

Bob Lehmann

 

[Bob Lehmann]

Yet, you still think that "Maybe NN7.1, Opera 7.54, and Firefox should get
their acts together"?

Bob Lehmann

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

Let me put it this way. How come you can view the same web page in
different browsers? Because they all use HTML. They don't each use
their own "flavor" of HTML. They adhere to a standard
("recommendation" from Tom's point of view). If they didn't, you
would need a proprietary program to view each different web site.
Much the same as needing a proprietary program to open a Word
document.
If it wasn't fort "standards" there would be no JavaScript, no HTML,
not even TCP/IP. And all of our lives would be a lot simpler, since
we wouldn't have to write apps that can talk across networks.

A large part of the HTML recommendations refers to deprecated tags and
methods of design. That is, after all, why they are called recommendations.
(http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/#recommendations).

Standards are a bit different because you're dealing with something a bit
more complex. For example, I use my wireless laptop at work, at home, at my
in-laws, at my parents, etc. They all have different brands of wireless
access points and/or routers (in addition to my VERY cool Apple AirPort
Express) and they all work the same because they comply with the 802.11g
standard.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

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[Thomas A. Rowe]

Jim,

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[David Baxter]

It was actually said partly tongue-in-cheek but I was referring to
points that I've stated elsewhere in this thread -- in particular the
assumption that other browsers (collectively totaling maybe 10-15% of
market share tops) have a right to adopt certain recommendations for
standards or even proprietary features but anything in MSIE is somehow
outdated or another example of Microsoft attempting to use their muscle
to impose "standards" on other browsers.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

And still moot.

Heck guys, I'm not talking about the English language. I'm talking about
reality! You both know how hard browser manufacturers work to adhere to
these "recommendations." How about one of you tell me why?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

BTW, here is a dictionary definition of the word "Standard" -

"Something, such as a practice or a product, that is widely recognized or
employed, especially because of its excellence. " = dictionary.com

Now, would you say that these "recommendations" are also "standards" by this
definition?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

And still moot.

Heck guys, I'm not talking about the English language. I'm talking
about reality! You both know how hard browser manufacturers work to
adhere to these "recommendations." How about one of you tell me why?

I can't tell you why because I don't agree that browser manufacturers work
hard to adhere to them. Shoot, a large percentage of posts in this
newsgroup deal with the frustration behind different browsers doing things
differently!

Now, what reality is that exactly, Kevin?

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

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[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

BTW, here is a dictionary definition of the word "Standard" -

"Something, such as a practice or a product, that is widely
recognized or employed, especially because of its excellence. " =
dictionary.com
Now, would you say that these "recommendations" are also "standards"
by this definition?

I wouldn't. TCP/IP is a standard. 802.11 is a standard. IEEE 1394 is a
standard. Ethernet is a standard. HTML is not a standard.

Who releases these recommendations? The W3C. What do they call them?
Recommendations.

Next question.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

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