It will be a landslide for Bush

F

forge

Jim Macklin said:
The claim that Bush started the war with Iraq because Saddam
tried to kill his father.

Only made jocularly as an aside.
The claim that Bush knew about 911 in advance.

Didn't see Moore make that claim. Bush knew about the plane crashes
before he went into that classroom though, and yet he sat there with the
most incredible blank look on his face for what seemed like hours.
The claim that Bush should have run around
in circles launching missiles at somebody. The whole movie
edit job was designed to slant such events as were shown.

I'm sorry, where did Moore make that claim? Did we see the same movie?
If Michael Moore told me that the sun was hot, I would check
with NASA, because every movie that he has previously done
was full of fiction [polite word for lies and propaganda].

I agree Moore likes to munge the data a bit and even Make Shit Up
sometimes. It's only as a defense against things like Fox News and Bill
O'Reilly though. Seriously.
 
J

John Henry

Jone Doe, you know who I am. But you don't...know why...I'm here.
Is Superman real? There was a movie. No one got sued. Are the Rug
Rats real? There was a movie. No one got sued. It's called
"entertainment" even when it doesn't.

Congratulations. This might just be the most ignorant thing I've ever
read in a decade and a half of using electronic discussion forums.

NB: Anyone is more than welcome to post factual inaccuracies they found
in F9-11. The one consistent thing I find about criticism of this movie
is that it seems to be written by people who are parrotting third- or
fourth-hand information about it. I have yet to read a comprehensive
criticism from anyone that's actually seen it, and I have yet to see
anyone actually enumerate the 'errors' that are supposed to be all over
it.

I also find it entertaining that some guy in the middle of a completely
opinion-based, fact-deficient rant is bemoaning the state of American
political discourse.
 
J

J. S.

AJ Denny said:
That Christopher Hitchens article is great. Thank you for putting up the
link to it.

No, it's not that great actually. The article is
full of logical fallacies if you care to look into
it -- "false dilema" type fallacies are his favorite.

It's funny, though, coming from the same guy who
wrote "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in
Theory and Practice." I suspect that book is quite
a bit more unfair and unbalanced than F911.

Hitchens has also written a couple of articles
defending his friend and alleged Iranian spy
Ahmad Chalabi.

I do not believe Hitchens is very credible.

--Joe
 
D

David W. Barnes

Osprey said:
Regardless of who you want to blame, the point is they have no choice at
this time.

But Bush claims he has delivered "Democracy."
Right, and hopefully it will not last long.

Just until we get them to do as we say.
 
S

Swedish Meatball

forge said:
I seriously doubt they want democracy at the cost of the needless deaths
of their relatives and neighbors. They just want to be left the ****
alone, man.

Who gives a **** what *you* seriously doubt or not? Since your 'doubts' are
nothing but ignorant wishful thinking, shut the **** up and quit your pissing
and moaning. The stupid ****s need a couple of nice glass parking lots over
there, how about you take your whiny ass to ground zero and try to stop the
thing if/when it hits.
 
S

sidekick

forge said:
I seriously doubt they want democracy at the cost of the needless deaths
of their relatives and neighbors. They just want to be left the ****
alone, man.

Are you French?
 
A

AJ Denny

If you won't to point out whats wrong with the article, by all means feel
free to do so. But it still seems fine to me. And Slate usually has a pretty
good nose for BS anyway. If it was as bad as you suggest, they wouldn't use
it.
 
J

J. S.

AJ Denny said:
If you won't to point out whats wrong with the article, by all means feel
free to do so. But it still seems fine to me. And Slate usually has a pretty
good nose for BS anyway. If it was as bad as you suggest, they wouldn't use
it.

Absolutely. First, a definition:

False Dilemma Falacy
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/distract/fd.htm

A limited number of options (usually two) is given, while
in reality there
are more options. A false dilemma is an illegitimate use of the
"or" operator.

Putting issues or opinions into "black or white" terms is a common
instance
of this fallacy.

Now, consider a sample of Hitchens' statements:

1) Either the Saudis run U.S. policy (through family ties or
overwhelming economic interest), or they do not.

[Perhaps they can influence U.S. policy.]

2) As allies and patrons of the Taliban regime, they either opposed
Bush's removal of it, or they did not.

3) Either we sent too many troops, or were wrong to send any at
all—the latter was Moore's view as late as 2002—or we sent too few.

[There is no inconsistency in believing that no troops should've been
sent,
but if you're going to send them anyway, you better do it right.]

4) President Bush is accused of taking too many lazy vacations. (What
is that about, by the way? Isn't he supposed to be an unceasing
planner for future aggressive wars?)

[In other words, Bush can be either a guy who takes a lot of vacations
or an unceasing planner of future agressions, but not both. Why not?
And BTW,
does Moore actually state Bush, personally, is an unceasing planner of
future
aggressions?]

5) More interesting is the moment where Bush is shown frozen on his
chair at the infant school in Florida, looking stunned and useless for
seven whole minutes after the news of the second plane on 9/11. Many
are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a
Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work. I could even wish that myself.
But if he had done any such thing then (as he did with his "Let's
roll" and "dead or alive" remarks a month later), half the Michael
Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a
hectic, crazed impulse.

[In other words, there are only two choices: Bush could've sat there
for 7 minutes, or he could've leapt from his stool like a
maniac.Certainly
other presidents would not have done any better. Yeah, right.]

There's clearly a pattern of logical fallacies, which are hard to
spot, and therefore impress most readers. Most of the rest of the
article can be summed up as a diatribe of superfluous name-calling.

In fairness, the least weak point (which Hitchens is not the first to
bring up) is that Richard Clarke has taken responsibility for the
Saudi Flights. Richard Clarke was working for the White House when he
did that, so the White House is clearly not off the hook. The fact
that Richard Clarke was later critical of the administration doesn't
undo anything really. Richard Clark at least apologized.

Finally, I would note that the article is titled "The Lies of
Michael Moore" and yet, surprisingly, there article does not point
out a single clear-cut lie in Moore's movie. It's actually easier
to make a case for the lies of Hitchens (starting with the title of
his article.)

--Joe
 
A

AJ Denny

I'm happy to reply to your post (thank you for the thought you put into it,
by the way), but I don't want to cross post anymore. I'm sure the nice
people in some of these newsgroups don't care in the slightest about this
particular topic. Which one are you posting from? I'm in
soc.history.what.if.
 
P

Peter Hayes

Xomicron said:
Bush will win in a landslide.

Isn't it a pity that the one real guy capable of applying some
leadership isn't eligible?

Clinton, of course.
 
J

Jim Macklin

I wonder what magic Bill Clinton has, it seems all women
want to suck up to him and many liberal men think he was a
great leader.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.


|
| > Bush will win in a landslide.
|
| Isn't it a pity that the one real guy capable of applying
some
| leadership isn't eligible?
|
| Clinton, of course.
|
| --
|
| Peter
 
F

forge

Jim Macklin said:
I wonder what magic Bill Clinton has, it seems all women
want to suck up to him and many liberal men think he was a
great leader.

He certainly talks better than most of the people in the Bush
administration. Save perhaps Colin Powell.
 
J

Jim Macklin

That's why he is called slick willy, perhaps that is also
because his willy is always slick.


message
| In article <[email protected]>,
| "Jim Macklin" <p51mustang[threeX12]@xxxhotmail.calm>
wrote:
|
| > I wonder what magic Bill Clinton has, it seems all women
| > want to suck up to him and many liberal men think he was
a
| > great leader.
|
| He certainly talks better than most of the people in the
Bush
| administration. Save perhaps Colin Powell.
 

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