IDE storage prices tumbling?

F

Folkert Rienstra

Geronimo W. Christ Esq said:
Increasing the bus speed isn't useful for a single drive. The fastest
drives in existence barely peak at 100Mb/sec, AFAIR.
The bus speed business is more marketing hype than anything else.

Nonsense.
Busspeed reflects the current technical design state AND is chosen such
that current as well as *future* drives can be accomodated for for the
next few years that it takes to develop new techniques and a new standard,
for when the time comes that future drives will spring the current barrier.
The phrase "internal RAID" is something of an oxymoron. The "A"
in RAID stands for "array" so obviously you've got a collection of disks.

Or disk(platter) sides, which can be found in a single harddrive.
The only form of RAID that theoretically delivers significant performance
improvements is the striped variant, and you pay the price of losing a lot
more data if one drive fails.

As if you loose nothing if a single drive fails.

Speed yes, size no. The size barrier is just a psychological one as drive
manufacturers prefer not to fit more than three platters in a drive casing
even though several more may fit.
It's a question of focus. Hard drives being sold in mass-produced
consumer desktop machines are being sold on size and low price, not on
performance.

Well, that quite depends on how you describe "performance". Sequential
transfer 'performance' of IDE drives is the best there is re RPM. For
accesstime dependent applications you need high RPM/low seek time drives.
 
C

chrisv

Folkert Rienstra said:
Try 9-10 years back.

10 years ago, the biggest IDE drive you could get was a 1G, and most
PC's were still being sold with 540MB and smaller drives. I know this
is correct, because I bought a PC (Dell P90) almost exactly 10 years
ago, and 1G was definitely "the king". 8)
 
T

Tony Bryer

10 years ago, the biggest IDE drive you could get was a 1G, and
most PC's were still being sold with 540MB and smaller drives. this
I know is correct, because I bought a PC (Dell P90) almost exactly
10 years ago, and 1G was definitely "the king". 8)

We tend to buy mid-market and from my records I have

1992 130MB £264 (all+VAT)
1994 540MB £209
1996 1GB £119

My first ever disk drive was a 5.25" FD on a BBC: £400!
 
J

Jeff Gaines

We tend to buy mid-market and from my records I have

1992 130MB £264 (all+VAT)
1994 540MB £209
1996 1GB £119

My first ever disk drive was a 5.25" FD on a BBC: £400!

Bought from Viglen when they worked out of a shed in a back street
somewhere? Plus of course the Watford DFs, a handful of chips in a
brown paper bag and a photo copied instruction sheet.

I blew the whole of my first ever Xmas bonus on those bits!
 
F

Fishman

Tony Bryer said:
We tend to buy mid-market and from my records I have

1992 130MB £264 (all+VAT)
1994 540MB £209
1996 1GB £119

My first ever disk drive was a 5.25" FD on a BBC: £400!

I've still got invoices from 1996

Sept. 1996
850Mb Seagate's - £84 + vat
1G Quantum Fireball's - £103 + vat

Nov. 97
2.6Gb Fujitsu's - £104 + vat
 
F

Folkert Rienstra

chrisv said:
10 years ago, the biggest IDE drive you could get was a 1G, and most
PC's were still being sold with 540MB and smaller drives. I know this
is correct, because I bought a PC (Dell P90) almost exactly 10 years
ago, and 1G was definitely "the king". 8)

Well, that is wy I said "9-10 years" ago. ;-)

IBM introduced the DFHS model in 1993-94.
It was available in 1, 2 and 4GB eventually.

I went from the assumption that IDE drives are usually bigger than
SCSI drives but that assumption may be wrong re 10 years back.
Figure that.
IDE/ATA was in it's infant years back then and probably considered toys.
 
D

Daniel James

If the size of affordable flash memory catches up with the minimum
size of an installed OS, you could put you OS on a flash drive and
data on an IDE dirves. Instant on! and fast!
Anbody doing this yet?

It's not uncommon in "appliance" linux boxes - firewalls, PVRs, and
things like that.

e.g. http://linitx.com/index.php?cPath=4 for some examples of
firewalls.

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
M

Marcus Fox

chrisv said:
10 years ago, the biggest IDE drive you could get was a 1G, and most
PC's were still being sold with 540MB and smaller drives. I know this
is correct, because I bought a PC (Dell P90) almost exactly 10 years
ago, and 1G was definitely "the king". 8)

I bought a Time Laptop almost 5 years ago, came with a 6.4 GB drive.

Marcus
 
T

TMack

J. Clarke said:
Pleas DO crosspost when it is appropriate, which, in this case, it appears
to have been.

There is cleary a risk of problems when a message inviting comments is
posted to a specifically uk group such as uk.comp.vendors and also to
'general' groups with a world-wide readership. The charter of
uk.comp.vendors states "This newsgroup is for the disussion of issues
surrounding computer hardware/software vendors in the UK." As a result of
crossposting we now have lots of off-topic general discussion in
uk.comp.vendors about hard disks, prices in the USA etc. which as nothing to
do with vendors in the UK.
If he did not crosspost then several different people would
probably waste their time telling him things that someone has already said
adequately because they would not know that he had posted the same question
in multiple places or that it had already been answered.

Crossposting usally creates confusion unless groups are carefully selected
AND the OP makes it very clear that the message has been crossposted. Also,
it is usually a good idea to consider setting "followups" to one group. A
post "may" be relevant to 3 groups, but followups can be set to one group.
Then the discussion will continue there. When using the followup header, it
is helps to put in the message somewhere "Followups set." However, the use
of followups is usually way beyond the average crossposter because they tend
to crosspost from a position of ignorance rather than skill.
However, since he stated specifically that he is in the UK that concern does
not apply now, does it?

He stated that he was in the UK but he posted a general query about hard
disk prices and possible reasons for price reductions. He also quoted a
price in dollars which immediately looks inappropriate for a uk group.
What do you do, look for crossposting and whine
before you read the content?

Er..no. I wonder WTF discussions about US prices, US vendors and the
technical details of hard disk technology are doing in uk.comp.vendors, then
I look and see that the original has been inapproriately crossposted. I am
pretty sure that, for example, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage doesn't
want loads of discussion appearing there about the relative merits of uk
computer component vendors (most of which does not concern HDs or storage) -
likewise uk.comp.vendors can do without the discussions about USA vendors
and techinical details of harware .


Tony
 
J

J. Clarke

TMack said:
There is cleary a risk of problems when a message inviting comments is
posted to a specifically uk group such as uk.comp.vendors and also to
'general' groups with a world-wide readership. The charter of
uk.comp.vendors states "This newsgroup is for the disussion of issues
surrounding computer hardware/software vendors in the UK." As a result of
crossposting we now have lots of off-topic general discussion in
uk.comp.vendors about hard disks, prices in the USA etc. which as nothing
to do with vendors in the UK.


Crossposting usally creates confusion unless groups are carefully selected
AND the OP makes it very clear that the message has been crossposted.
Also, it is usually a good idea to consider setting "followups" to one
group. A post "may" be relevant to 3 groups, but followups can be set to
one group. Then the discussion will continue there. When using the
followup header, it
is helps to put in the message somewhere "Followups set." However, the
use of followups is usually way beyond the average crossposter because
they tend to crosspost from a position of ignorance rather than skill.


He stated that he was in the UK but he posted a general query about hard
disk prices and possible reasons for price reductions. He also quoted a
price in dollars which immediately looks inappropriate for a uk group.


Er..no. I wonder WTF discussions about US prices, US vendors and the
technical details of hard disk technology are doing in uk.comp.vendors,
then
I look and see that the original has been inapproriately crossposted. I
am
pretty sure that, for example, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage doesn't
want loads of discussion appearing there about the relative merits of uk
computer component vendors (most of which does not concern HDs or storage)
- likewise uk.comp.vendors can do without the discussions about USA
vendors and techinical details of harware .

However the factors that affect pricing are to a large extent independent of
national borders, especially in the UK which with the demise of Rodime as
far as I know has no indigenous hard disk production capability.

The primary result of complaints about crossposting, however, is an
off-topic discussion of the merits of crossposting, so by complaining about
it you have made the problem worse, not better.

It seems to me that you're being a lot defensive.
 
F

Folkert Rienstra

TMack said:
There is cleary a risk of problems when a message inviting comments is
posted to a specifically uk group such as uk.comp.vendors and also to
'general' groups with a world-wide readership. The charter of
uk.comp.vendors states "This newsgroup is for the disussion of issues
surrounding computer hardware/software vendors in the UK." As a result of
crossposting we now have lots of off-topic general discussion in
uk.comp.vendors about hard disks, prices in the USA etc. which as nothing to
do with vendors in the UK.

The same risk is run with dial-in connections or when you only check the
newsgroup once or twice a day.
Crossposting usally creates confusion unless groups are carefully selected
AND the OP makes it very clear that the message has been crossposted.
Also, it is usually a good idea to consider setting "followups" to one group.

Not if you want to have a discussion. Follow-up should only be allowed
for the original message when the OP only wants answers, no discussion.
Setting a follow-up halfway a thread is extremely rude and will cut people
out of the loop that will start wondering why a discussion suddenly went
dead or why their comments aren't answered.
A post "may" be relevant to 3 groups, but followups can be set to one group.
Then the discussion will continue there.

There will be no discussion if you cut the posters out of the loop.
When using the followup header, it is helps to put in the message somewhere
"Followups set."
However, the use of followups is usually way beyond the average crossposter
because they tend to crosspost from a position of ignorance rather than skill.

Pot, kettle.

Why not? Are prices too high in the UK and you don't want that to be known?
 
D

Davis Rorgh

TMack said:
He stated that he was in the UK but he posted a general query
about hard disk prices and possible reasons for price
reductions. He also quoted a price in dollars which
immediately looks inappropriate for a uk group.


Er..no. I wonder WTF discussions about US prices, US vendors
and the technical details of hard disk technology are doing in
uk.comp.vendors,

I am the OP. I think the poster was right. You seem to nitpick on
crossposting. What do you want people to do ... to multipost? A newsreader
can supress crossposts in the differemt groups the user goes to but it can
not suppress the same emssage if it is multiposted.

I chose the groups carefully. I limited the crossposting to a GNKSA-
approved four.

Many readers and posters in the UK newsgroups live in the US. I quoted US
prices in passing in order to permit these readers to also follow the low
prices I was referring to.

Two groups were to do with homebuilders (UK ones and US ones) because they
are the sort of people who buy at retail prices and retail prices is what I
was quoting.
then I look and see that the original has been
inapproriately crossposted. I am pretty sure that, for
example, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage doesn't want loads
of discussion appearing there about the relative merits of uk
computer component vendors (most of which does not concern HDs
or storage)

comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage deal with storage and I was posting about
storage prices. Maybe the low price is a worldwide phenomenon or maybe it
is not. comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage is the sort of place that would be
known.
likewise uk.comp.vendors can do without the
discussions about USA vendors and techinical details of harware

uk.comp.vendors also discusses comparative prices. Have a look through some
threads there to see what I mean.
 
T

TMack

Davis Rorgh said:
I am the OP. I think the poster was right. You seem to nitpick on
crossposting. What do you want people to do ... to multipost?

You could have taken the extra 60 seconds and posted to each group
seperately using copy/paste. That way there is no risk of confusion about
who is replying from which group. The need to do this is illustrated by the
fact that J Clarke used the "followups to" in his post which meant that part
of this thread is now only appearing in only one of the four newsgroups.
Crossposting nearly always leads to problems if the message is likely to
provoke discussion. The whole point of having different newsgroups is to
put boundaries on discussions - and crossposting messes up the boundaries.


A newsreader
can supress crossposts in the differemt groups the user goes to but it can
not suppress the same emssage if it is multiposted.

I chose the groups carefully. I limited the crossposting to a GNKSA-
approved four.

Not that carefully - go and read the charter of uk.comp.vendors
uk.comp.vendors also discusses comparative prices. Have a look through some
threads there to see what I mean.

No need to look at threads - look at the charter. i.e. "This newsgroup is
for the disussion of issues surrounding computer hardware/software vendors
in the UK." Which particular UK vendors were you discussing? You didn't
even request information about any particular vendors - you simply tried to
start a discussion about prices in general and the effects of SATA. Didn't
it occur to you that the crosspost would result in OT material being posted
to uk.comp.vendors? I suspect that it didn't because you didn't read the
charter before posting.

Tony
 
D

Daniel James

TMack said:
You could have taken the extra 60 seconds and posted to each group
seperately using copy/paste.

No, no, no, NO! That is the worst thing you could possibly do. that would
lead to four independent identically-worded questions in four separate
groups attracting four sets of very similar answers from four sets of
people -- each unaware that the same question is being answered in three
other groups at the same time. It leads to more noise and more wasted
bandwidth than crossposting.
That way there is no risk of confusion about who is replying from
which group.

... but that's the whole *point* of crossposting. If someone replies in one
groups the reply is seen in all the other groups so the people there know a
reply has already been given and won't waste their time and everyone's
bandwidth replying again.
The need to do this is illustrated by the fact that J Clarke used the
"followups to" in his post which meant that part of this thread is now
only appearing in only one of the four newsgroups.

A followup I see the OP wisely decided to ignore. Using followups (on any
message after the first, at least) just converts a crosspost into a
multipost and is bad for all the same reasons that multiposting is bad.

I agree with the OP: he only posted to four groups and they all look fairly
relevant to the question. Posting to fewer groups might have been better,
but multiposting would defintely not.

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
T

TMack

Daniel James said:
wrote:

You could have taken the extra 60 seconds and posted to each group
seperately using copy/paste.

No, no, no, NO! That is the worst thing you could possibly do. that would
lead to four independent identically-worded questions in four separate
groups attracting four sets of very similar answers from four sets of
people -- each unaware that the same question is being answered in three
other groups at the same time. It leads to more noise and more wasted
bandwidth than crossposting.[/QUOTE]

Bandwidth is hardly an issue these days in text-based groups - and anyway
the subscribers to uk.comp.vendors could legitimately criticise the waste of
bandwidth due to OT stuff appearing on that group.. And so what if there
are similar answers in different groups? The best bet is not to cross post
at all. If someone MUST do it for some particular reason then the fact that
the message has been crossposted should be made VERY clear in the original.
The problem, as I have already stated, is that different groups exist for a
good reason - they have different charters and deal with different subject
matters. Crossposting accross a range of vaguely similar groups with a
ill-defined general query is BOUND to lead to stuff appearing in some groups
that is completely OT. For example, discussion of hard disk technology is
absolutlely fine for comp.sys.ibm.hardware.storage but it is completely OT
for uk.comp.vendors.
.. but that's the whole *point* of crossposting. If someone replies in one
groups the reply is seen in all the other groups so the people there know a
reply has already been given and won't waste their time and everyone's
bandwidth replying again.

That would be fine if the subject was fully on-topic for all the original
groups AND people checked before replying. As it is, the OP didn't read the
charter of uk.comp.vendors (or chose to ignore it) and its pretty obvious
that people replying either don't know or don't care about the cross post.
The reason why crossposting is generally a BAD idea is evident in the amount
of stuff in this thread that is completely OT for at least one of the groups
involved and in the fact that somebody decided to use "followups to" in the
middle of it, enusring that part of the thread disappeared from the other
groups. If the OP had used "followups to", say,
comp.sys.ibm.hardware.storage then he could have had the "benefits" of the
crosspost without the risks of replies being OT for some groups and without
the confusion that almost inevitably ensues when messages are crossposted
without either warning or use of followups.
A followup I see the OP wisely decided to ignore. Using followups (on any
message after the first, at least) just converts a crosspost into a
multipost and is bad for all the same reasons that multiposting is bad.

But it illustrates how things tend to rapidly get confusing when messages
are crossposted
I agree with the OP: he only posted to four groups and they all look fairly
relevant to the question.

The title of a group is not enough to be confident that a post is
appropriate - the OP should have read the charters.


Tony
 
D

Daniel James

TMack said:
And so what if there are similar answers in different groups?

So ... anyone who follows all of those groups will see several different
discussions in dfferent places.

Whereas if the original question had been crossposted there would be only
one discussion -- with less repetition and more opportunity for fruitful
exchange -- and most decent newsreaders would only show it in one place.

I'm not arguing in favour of crossposting - I agree that it's done too often
and is usually inappropriate. What I *am* doing is to make two points:

1. Crossposting isn't automatically always evil. There are occasions when it
can be helpful and constructive to involve the communities of two or more
newsgroups in a discussion so that people with different interests and
expertise can all contribute, and the discussion will benefit from the
combination of their inputs.

2. Multiposting is always worse than crossposting.

There's also a third issue I was deliberately not making so much of, which
is that using followups is often also not a good idea. The usual advice is
that when crossposting one should set a followup-to just one of the groups
so that all the discussion takes place in just one group. It turns out that
that is usually not productive, because people who don't normally follow the
chosen followup group will probably not take the trouble to involve
themselves in the discussion - they might post once (though most don't
bother) but they won't see any further discussion or be able to enlarge upon
it. As most decent newsreaders will only show the discussion in one of the
subscribed groups it makes much more sense to allow the discussion to
continue to exist in all of them so that everyone gets the benefit of being
able to see all the replies.

This assumes that the thread is, and remains, on-topic in all of the groups,
of course. If the thread is not on topic in some of the groups that is an
argument against cross-posting to that group, not an agrument in favour of
followups (especially if the poster choses to set the followup to the
inappropriate group).

Setting followups after the thread has started is fatal. Each poster might
set followups to a different group and the discussion would become as
fragmented as in the multiposting case, with the additional problem that the
discussion might get taken to a group that the original poster did not chose
(and might not even be able to access).
The title of a group is not enough to be confident that a post is
appropriate - the OP should have read the charters.

Please don't quote me out of context. The rest of my paragraph said:
Posting to fewer groups might have been better,
but multiposting would defintely not.

The point I was making was against multiposting not in favour of
crossposting or of the OP's choice of u.c.vendors.

I'm not sure, though, now that you mention it, that anything the wording at
http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.comp.vendors.html says anything to exclude the
OP's post - vendors, after all, are people who sell stuff ... and so set
prices. People discussing vendors on the 'net might legitimately be
discussing many aspects of the vendors' business, including the prices they
charge -- and that is what the question was about.

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
T

TMack

SNIP!
I'm not sure, though, now that you mention it, that anything the wording at
http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.comp.vendors.html says anything to exclude the
OP's post - vendors, after all, are people who sell stuff ... and so set
prices. People discussing vendors on the 'net might legitimately be
discussing many aspects of the vendors' business, including the prices they
charge -- and that is what the question was about.

Gosh - I think we've had an intelligent debate - and reached a fair measure
of agreement which is quite unusual on usenet. However, I must comment on
the last point above - the group is for discussion about named vendors or to
request information about vendors, not for discussion about the general
business of buying and selling. Basically, its where people go to recommend
particular vendors (occasionally), criticise particular vendors
(frequently!) or ask where is the best pace in the uk to buy stuff.

Tony
 
D

Daniel James

TMack said:

Yeah, it was kinda longish. Sorry.
Gosh - I think we've had an intelligent debate - and reached a fair measure
of agreement which is quite unusual on usenet.

I hope so ...
I'm not sure, though, now that you mention it, that anything the wording
at http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.comp.vendors.html says anything to exclude
the OP's post ...
[snip]
... the group is for discussion about named vendors or to
request information about vendors, not for discussion about the general
business of buying and selling. Basically, its where people go to recommend
particular vendors (occasionally), criticise particular vendors
(frequently!) or ask where is the best pace in the uk to buy stuff.

Yes, I know what it's meant for ... my point was that the charter doesn't
actually say that ("discussion of issues surrounding" covers a multitude of
sins) so even consulting the charter isn't always enough to know whether a
posting is on-topic for a particular group.

Usenet's low signal to noise ratio is well known and unfortunate ... but some
of the most interesting discussions I've followed and participated in have
been off-topic. I'd hate to have the thought police spoil *all* the fun.

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
D

David Rorgh

TMack said:
You could have taken the extra 60 seconds and posted to each
group seperately using copy/paste. That way there is no risk of
confusion about who is replying from which group.

Maybe it is ok if you do not read more than one group. if you do
then your newsreader should be able to kill any crossposts you have
read after you have seen the first one. It does this by message-id
and your suggestion prevents this from working.
The need to
do this is illustrated by the fact that J Clarke used the
"followups to" in his post which meant that part of this thread
is now only appearing in only one of the four newsgroups.
Crossposting nearly always leads to problems if the message is
likely to provoke discussion. The whole point of having
different newsgroups is to put boundaries on discussions - and
crossposting messes up the boundaries.

Follow-up never really seems to work well in practice. Have a look
in the old threads on the newsreaders group where they discuss this.

Not that carefully - go and read the charter of uk.comp.vendors

I go by what is accepted by the group members. Not one complained
about the crossposts. Also agroup which discusses vendors will be
aware of factors which help answer my question about falling prices.
No need to look at threads - look at the charter. i.e. "This
newsgroup is for the disussion of issues surrounding computer
hardware/software vendors in the UK." Which particular UK
vendors were you discussing? You didn't even request
information about any particular vendors - you simply tried to
start a discussion about prices in general and the effects of
SATA. Didn't it occur to you that the crosspost would result in
OT material being posted to uk.comp.vendors? I suspect that it
didn't because you didn't read the charter before posting.

I have a feeling you almost have a need inside you to go over to
uk.comp.vendors and do some netcopping. I know you would be kept
busy there because there are many examples of what you are
complaining about.
 
T

TMack

SNIP
I go by what is accepted by the group members. Not one complained
about the crossposts.

I did!
Also agroup which discusses vendors will be
aware of factors which help answer my question about falling prices.

Irrelevant. A group such as uk.comp.vendors will have people who are aware
of many issues to do with computers - that doesn't make all computer-related
discussions on-topic. Anyway, the main point that I was making was NOT
about you original post being OT. It was about the fact that it was
crossposted to hardware discussion groups in a way that was BOUND to result
in substantial numbers of VERY OT replies appearing in uk.comp.vendors

I have a feeling you almost have a need inside you to go over to
uk.comp.vendors and do some netcopping. I know you would be kept
busy there because there are many examples of what you are
complaining about.

Er...no there aren't "many examples". The vast majority of posts are
on-topic and very few get crossposted to hardware discussion groups - and
save the "netcopping" stuff - its the standard lame diversionary tactic used
by everyone who gets called for OT posting, inappropriate crossposting etc.
etc.

Tony
 

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