HP OJ d145 color ink out error replace color ink cartridge message

[Ben Myers]

I read both pages referred to by the cited URLs. Oops! They point to the same
page. One web page does not exactly bring out of obscurity HP's (and others,
of course) efforts to set a standard, although the web page provides a decent
explanation. All I can say is that it's about time for a standards effort. How
long have color inkjet printers been in use?

Still, I'll persist. Does HP or ANY other printer company make it easy for
people to make cost per page comparisons for inkjet printers? Heck no. Not
even close. It's not very public. Again, where is this information
"published"? If it's off on some hard-to-find web pages, it's not very public.
I'm not beating up on only HP here. I'm beating up ALL the printer companies
for inkjet printers with very high operating costs. It's simply that HP is the
only one with a usenet newsgroup. Canon, Lexmark, Epson do not have usenet
newsgroups.

I do computer and network sales and service work, and all my clients bitch about
having to go to Staples or whereever all too often to buy expensive replacement
inkjet cartridges. I don't know what to tell them, because no brand stands out
over any other. This is the computer industry complaint I hear most
frequently. The inkjet printer industry is a collective embarrassment shared
by all the printer manufacturers, not just HP. I use an HP LaserJet myself,
eschewing expensive color.

As for other HP products, notably computers, I have found HP computers difficult
to repair compared to some other brands. (As an example, recently I had to
replace a failed power supply on an HP Pavilion, so I needed to do almost a
complete disassembly to remove the power supply from a cramped mATX chassis not
designed for easy accessibility. Took darn near an hour, and not because I am
inept. By comparsion, with most other brands, changing out a power supply is a
matter of removing 4 screws and disconnecting all the connectors, slapping in a
replacement and hooking it up. 10 minutes max.) I have found the HP web site
to be wanting for useful technical information compared to some other brands. I
find Dell and Lenovo/IBM to be easy to deal with re. spare parts, technical
specs, maintenance manuals, etc. Far easier than HP. Gateway/eMachines is a
real mixed bag, overall not quite as good as HP. Sony and Toshiba are next to
impossible to deal with. So from my persepective, I have to place HP somewhere
in the middle of all the computer equipment I have to work on.

I never worked for HP, Compaq, or DEC in my entire life. Never tried to. Never
saw or had an opportunity to. Interviewed with DEC once way back when. Went
elsewhere, to another company with a similar failed line of proprietary
computers. Sorry, no sour grapes here, just an axe to grind whenever I peceive
that a large company (or large companies) are taking advantage of individual
buyers, a phenomenon not unique to the computer industry in a country that has
evolved with a distinct anti-consumer, pro-big business climate... Ben Myers

 

[Bob Headrick]

I read both pages referred to by the cited URLs. Oops! They point to
the same
page. One web page does not exactly bring out of obscurity HP's (and
others,
of course) efforts to set a standard, although the web page provides a
decent
explanation. All I can say is that it's about time for a standards
effort. How
long have color inkjet printers been in use?

Still, I'll persist. Does HP or ANY other printer company make it
easy for
people to make cost per page comparisons for inkjet printers? Heck
no. Not
even close. It's not very public. Again, where is this information
"published"? If it's off on some hard-to-find web pages, it's not
very public.

Oops, I gave the wrong link. See
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/us/en/index.html and it can be found
by a search for "page yield" at http://www.hp.com

As for not being very public, that is changing. There is a rather large
effort underway to provide yield information for all new HP printers as
they are introduced. As the ISO standard is ratified I would expect the
information will become more pervasive, both in reviews and marketing
material. Prior to a standard different manufacturers could (and did)
have widely different methods and definitions of page yield. For
example, 5% coverage was pretty much "standard" for black text, but one
manufacturer defined the 5% as based on an A size page with 1" margins
all the way around - so the 5% area was really only for a 6.5"x9" page.
With an agreed standard customers will really be able to make more
informed comparison.

As for taking a *long* time to get this in place, that is true. How
many years were cars in existence before the EPA mileage estimates
became widespread? Page yield is a very complex issue, depending on a
large number of variables. The standard as it is being released will
give "highway" mileage, the yield if the printer is pretty much run
continuously emptying the cartridge in one sitting. "Real" customers
have a much different usage model, with many printing only a few pages a
day and taking months or a year to empty a cartridge. Manufacturers,
especially the smaller ones, are not interested in a test that would
take months to run as this would be prohibitively expensive. Similarly
printers that use a large amount of ink for servicing could have high
"continuous printing" yields but relatively poor real world yields.
Manufacturers would not be interested in publishing the poorer real
world results. See
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/EfficiencyArticle.html,
particularly the graph in the center of the article.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[The Kaminsky Family]

If you were actually trying to be rational you would have actually
read the web sites I provided, which answer many of your questions:
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html

This is a great step forward, Bob. We thank you for pointing it out as we
print family photos and we hate to have to run out to buy expensive ink
cartridges which run out at the worst moment. I gave up on storing the ink
cartridges not only because I learned the expiration dates kill them without
me doing anything but also because I'd have to store 7 incompatible
cartridges just to replenish my two HP printers I bought from Costco.

I do have two questions, since you seem to be very knowledgeable.

Is there any progress on getting this printer ink yield standard to the
consumer by Christmas of 2007 or 2008 for all printers sold in the US?

Also, why are there so very many different types of HP ink cartridges? My
family has to sort through a wall of them, taking up tons of shelf space at
Costco, just to find the type each of our printers use (HP 14 for one printer
and HP 2 for the other printer). The HP 2 printer uses a LOT of cartridges
too! And they are teeeeny tiny to boot.

Why are there so many incompatible types of ink cartridges for something as
fundamental as holding ink in a tank?

 

[Bob Headrick]

Is there any progress on getting this printer ink yield standard to
the
consumer by Christmas of 2007 or 2008 for all printers sold in the US?

It has been a year since I had any involvement with the standards stuff
(and only on the very periphery then) and the target at that time was
for 2006 ratification. I see from some of my old emails that at one
time the expectation was that the standard would be ratified in 2005
.

Also, why are there so very many different types of HP ink cartridges?
My
family has to sort through a wall of them, taking up tons of shelf
space at
Costco, just to find the type each of our printers use (HP 14 for one
printer
and HP 2 for the other printer).

HP has been making inkjet's since 1970-something and for the most part
all the cartridges are still available. Improvements in technology
bring new inks and new printheads for new printers, but the old
cartridges are still on the shelf as well to support the original
printers. As for your new printer with "a lot" of cartridges, it has
six inks and individual supplies for each color.

Why are there so many incompatible types of ink cartridges for
something as
fundamental as holding ink in a tank?

There are different inks for different purposes. The recent expansion
of home photo printing has created demand for inks with better print
quality and lightfastnesses. The printer I use has a black cartridge
and three different tri-color cartridges (CMY, photo and photo gray) and
is available in several different sizes. Some of the printers have
printheads built in, while others, like the printers you have, have
separate printheads. In some cases, such as the 57+ and 78+ cartridges
the new inks are retrofitted back into the previous generation, but
typically this is not possible due to backwards compatibility issues.
Some cartridges were used in a large number of systems. For example,
the #45 black cartridge was designed into more than a hundred different
printer, all-in-one and large format printer models over a period of
nearly a decade.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Jack Linthicum]

HP has been making inkjet's since 1970-something and for the most part
all the cartridges are still available.

Maybe so, but so has Kellog and Post cereals. In Marketing 101, you
learn to create slight, yet incompatible, variations on the product so
as to gain shelf space at the consumer outlet at the expense of the
competition. The whole point is to squeeze out the competition by
providing a vast array of essentially the same thing only packaged in
a way that requires the stores to provide shelf space. Hewlett Packard
is a marketing machine, never forget that. They didn't really create
all those incompatible ink tanks just so the consumer would have a
supply and demand problem as much as to crowd out the competition.

And, don't be naive. HP certainly could have designed a small subset
of ink tanks that fit a huge array of printers. It is in your best
interest but not their best interest to do so.

Again, your naivette shows through on your ink level sensing question.
You think HP can't sense the ink level? From Palo Alto they can sense
that you are refilling your ink tank with better and cheaper ink than
what they want to sell you. Of course HP could have sensed the actual
ink level! They don't want to.

They could also have made the ink tank clear so you could tell how
much ink was left. Guess why the ink tanks in HP printers are NEVER
clear? (HINT: Read Marketing 101, chapter 3 again.)

Get a grip! The entire reason their are so many HP ink tank formats
out there is pure marketing. It has nothing to do with the
"justification" Bob gave it. It sounds nice. But, it doesn't stand the
test of truth. Same with Bob's answer on the ink level sensing. Sorry
Bob, you did try to back up HP like a good soldier and your story
sounds very convincing to an unassuming consumer, but nobody really
believes HP is doing all these shenanigans to protect either the
printer or the consumer.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

The two URLS in your posting appear to be the same one. Can you repost
the one that's missing?

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

OK, Bob I have the correct one now...

 

[Ben Myers]

Hear! Hear! Well put! ... Ben Myers

Maybe so, but so has Kellog and Post cereals. In Marketing 101, you
learn to create slight, yet incompatible, variations on the product so
as to gain shelf space at the consumer outlet at the expense of the
competition. The whole point is to squeeze out the competition by
providing a vast array of essentially the same thing only packaged in
a way that requires the stores to provide shelf space. Hewlett Packard
is a marketing machine, never forget that. They didn't really create
all those incompatible ink tanks just so the consumer would have a
supply and demand problem as much as to crowd out the competition.

And, don't be naive. HP certainly could have designed a small subset
of ink tanks that fit a huge array of printers. It is in your best
interest but not their best interest to do so.

Again, your naivette shows through on your ink level sensing question.
You think HP can't sense the ink level? From Palo Alto they can sense
that you are refilling your ink tank with better and cheaper ink than
what they want to sell you. Of course HP could have sensed the actual
ink level! They don't want to.

They could also have made the ink tank clear so you could tell how
much ink was left. Guess why the ink tanks in HP printers are NEVER
clear? (HINT: Read Marketing 101, chapter 3 again.)

Get a grip! The entire reason their are so many HP ink tank formats
out there is pure marketing. It has nothing to do with the
"justification" Bob gave it. It sounds nice. But, it doesn't stand the
test of truth. Same with Bob's answer on the ink level sensing. Sorry
Bob, you did try to back up HP like a good soldier and your story
sounds very convincing to an unassuming consumer, but nobody really
believes HP is doing all these shenanigans to protect either the
printer or the consumer.

 

[Jack Linthicum]

... heck of a lot more reliable would be an actual low-ink
sensor, similar in function to Canon's optical prism. It could be a PTC
thermistor in the ink

Or it could be as simple as a clear plastic ink tank.

If HP really wanted to provide the true ink level, they (easily could
have and certainly would have.

I can't blame them. HP probably makes more money on ink than on the
printer. They sell for fifty dollars what costs them less than five
dollars to manufacture and which someone else could replace for about
five dollars retail (ink is nothing special, boys and girls).

If your motor vehicle had a low-fluid level sensor such as the one in
the HP printers in question, your engine wouldn't last a year! So
please don't believe the nice sounding yet convoluted phrasing with
vague meaning that you read in the HP literature.

HP is a marketing machine who has determined to make a profit (can't
blam 'em) at your expense. Don't buy HP and your problem is solved!
Or, research WHICH PRINTERS can easily be refilled and buy THEM.

Vote with your dollars boys and girls!
PS The question is WHICH COLOR PRINTERS CAN EASILY BE REFILLED?

 

[Jack Linthicum]

My hypothesis is that you must turn off the ink-drop counting each time to
restart the hpojd145 printer. If you disagree with my hypothesis (which you
are welcome to do, but please provide facts), can you tell me how one would
be able to check whether ink drop counting is on or off. The answer to that
question would prove or disprove the hypothesis.

Does _anyone_ in this printer group know if turning off the ink drop
checking is temporary or if it lasts for a specified period or event?

I think maybe it's your removal of the ink tank to refill which is
causing the ink droplet counting to reset back to counting droplets.

But I don't know how to tell if the HP ink droplet counting is on at
any one moment in time - I'm sure others on this ng certainly do.

 

[Bob Headrick]

Maybe so, but so has Kellog and Post cereals. In Marketing 101, you
learn to create slight, yet incompatible, variations on the product so
as to gain shelf space at the consumer outlet at the expense of the
competition.

Corn flakes have not changed much, inks do change. If HP still used the
inks they had decades ago they would be left competively in the dust.
When the competition was 9 pin dot matrix printers the requirements for
black printing was not very demanding. In those days dye based black
ink was OK and color was not even required. Today the competition is
laser printing or commercial printing. Do you really believe that the
ink and printhead technology did not need to change?

And, don't be naive. HP certainly could have designed a small subset
of ink tanks that fit a huge array of printers. It is in your best
interest but not their best interest to do so.

But HP does use their ink tanks in a huge array of printers. As
mentioned before, the #45 black cartridge was designed into hundreds and
hundreds of printer models over most of a decade. The recent #95 series
of color cartridges were used in dozens of printer models ranging from
small battery powered single cartridge photo printers to all-in-one
units, desktop printers and super B size printers. On the other hand,
those cartridges are not suitable for large format printers, just as the
ink system with 400mL ink tanks are not suitable for a portable printer.

Again, your naivette shows through on your ink level sensing question.
You think HP can't sense the ink level? From Palo Alto they can sense
that you are refilling your ink tank with better and cheaper ink than
what they want to sell you. Of course HP could have sensed the actual
ink level! They don't want to.

You demonstrate you ignorance of the technical issues with the above.
Your statement has absolutely no basis in reality.

Get a grip! The entire reason their are so many HP ink tank formats
out there is pure marketing. It has nothing to do with the
"justification" Bob gave it. It sounds nice. But, it doesn't stand the
test of truth. Same with Bob's answer on the ink level sensing.

There is a very tiny bit of truth in this statement - there are more ink
tank formats because of marketing issues, but the biggest marketing
issue is the fact that there are different customer requirements and
different competitive pressures. If the market had not changed since
the 70's then the original ThinkJet cartridges would be all that is
needed. There really are different customer requirements that require
different solutions.

As for ink level sensing, I have been involved in the past with ink
sensing development and can assure you that it is not a simple process.
It is easy enough to say "just make the bodies clear and use a prism
like Canon", but that solution does not work for foam based cartridges.
Trying to measure ink level electrically or thermally is also fraught
with technical challenges and inaccuracies.

In closing I would also like to print out that different printers have
different requirements and systems. Printers that use cartridges with
printheads built in provide low on ink indications but do not disable
printing or otherwise impede printing. For printers with replaceable
but separate printheads the requirements are more stringent, as running
a printhead without ink could damage the printhead resulting in more
costly replacement. Printers with completely fixed (non-replaceable)
printheads are even more restrictive, as running out of ink could result
in printer service required. For the first case a simple (and
inexpensive) drop counting can be adequate, for the latter more
extensive (and expensive) methods must be used.

I have said enough on this subject and will only respond to further
posts on this topic to correct egregious misstatements.

- Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Arthur Entlich]

A few comments.

Although I have to agree that almost all the "features" in ink
cartridge technology that have been introduced principally for the
benefit of the manufacturers (and I mean all of them, HP is not alone in
this, by any means), I'm not sure it is for shelf space in stores.

These days, beside the extended warranty business, the principal way big
box and tech stores make money is not sales of the products, but by
renting shelf space. Ever notice that certain brands are displayed in
certain locations in stores, and that all the stores in the chain tend
to use the same locations or percentage of their shelf space for
specific products/brands? Smaller companies usually get the lower darker
locations. HP pays a fortune to rent the best spaces, whether it is for
produce or ink cartridges.

The other reason for continual new ink cartridge designs, besides
confounding the consumer from being able to refill them, is because it
limits how many cartridges are out their being reused by 3rd party
refillers. In the case of more disposable cartridges (like Epson and
Canon) its to keep the 3rd party cartridge designers in the dark and
scrambling to create the latest 3rd party cartridge.

Over the years, the inkjet and now laser printer companies have spent
minor fortunes in design and engineering costs to create printer systems
that can detect and reject non-OEM cartridges. They also incorporate
and patent systems which have secondary "features" which supposedly are
there to provide user conveniences when the more likely purpose is to
require anyone copying the cartridge design to infringe on the
manufacturer's patents, so they can sue and create injunctions on the
3rd party manufacture of those cartridges.

I wish the legislative and judiciary would smarten up and put an end to
these methods of curtailing competition in the refill ink/toner
cartridge marketplace. We'll probably have to wait for the EU to do it,
since the US and Canada governments are too tied to tax revenues from
these industries to do the right thing.

Art

 

[Ben Myers]

"We'll probably have to wait for the EU to do it, since the US and Canada
governments are too tied to tax revenues from these industries to do the right
thing." Tax revenues? I can't speak for Canada, but hell no!!! in the US.
The anti-trust division of the US Justice Department has gone to sleep at the
request of the current regime in power. Why? Because the current regime
lines its pockets with political contributions from large businesses. Look
what happened to the Microsoft anti-trust suit in the US. The Clinton
administration had Microsoft pretty much nailed to the wall. Then W got elected
and actions against Microsoft ground to a halt.

Yes, let's hope that the EU takes up printer issues after it finishes with
Microsoft. The computer industry is dominated by monopolists and cartels, and
we all pay the price... Ben Myers

 

[John McWilliams]

"We'll probably have to wait for the EU to do it, since the US and Canada
governments are too tied to tax revenues from these industries to do the right
thing." Tax revenues? I can't speak for Canada, but hell no!!! in the US.
The anti-trust division of the US Justice Department has gone to sleep at the
request of the current regime in power.

The anti-trust guys have been on methadone treatment since the 70's. Has
nothing to do with current politics.

In a more practical vein, I doubt one can simply legislate that the
industry standardize ink tanks, nor do I think that's the way to go. The
demand needs to come from consumers, and the US is a nation of them, for
the most part wasteful and seldom concerned with economics. Present
company excepted, of course.

 

[Ben Myers]

Well, get together a group of consumers to launch a crusade or jihad against the
printer manufacturers.

The Microsoft anti-trust suit must have occured when the methadone supply ran
out. Then big pharma opened up the pill supply again, and has not yet stopped.
Oops! I need to be careful here, with the recent suspension of habeas corpus!

.... Ben Myers

 

[Tony]

Hi Tony,

I thank you for your expert help.

The fundamental quesion is whether turning off the black and color ink drop
checking on the HP ojd145 via the "double-arrow 4 5 6" and "double-arrow 7
8 9" respectively - is temporary (i.e., until the next power on cycle).

My hypothesis is that you must turn off the ink-drop counting each time to
restart the hpojd145 printer. If you disagree with my hypothesis (which you
are welcome to do, but please provide facts), can you tell me how one would
be able to check whether ink drop counting is on or off. The answer to that
question would prove or disprove the hypothesis.

Does _anyone_ in this printer group know if turning off the ink drop
checking is temporary or if it lasts for a specified period or event?

The purpose of the ink usage counter is to protect the printhead and to provide
an estimate of printhead life remaining, nothing more (in this printer at
least).
Therefore I cannot understand why anybody would want to turn it off unless they
want the printhead to die. The second issue I have is that I am surprised that
HP allows it to be turned off.
Your hypothesis seems to me to have no relevance.
Tony

 

[John McWilliams]

Well, get together a group of consumers to launch a crusade or jihad against the
printer manufacturers.

The Microsoft anti-trust suit must have occured when the methadone supply ran
out. Then big pharma opened up the pill supply again, and has not yet stopped.
Oops! I need to be careful here, with the recent suspension of habeas corpus!

A side show. Nothing occurred other than MS was told they did bad
things, and they really really should stop or they'd be in big, big
trouble in the future. A few hundred millions or low billions in fines;
a slap on the wrist for MS.

 

[Ben Myers]

Except that the fines and sanctions in the US never happened. It was a case of
anti-trustus interruptus when the Bush DOJ took over... Ben Myers