HD about to fail? Weird sounds at startup--ever heard this?

[raylopez99]

I have two hard drives on an XP Pentium IV--a Western Digital about
five years old, as old as the processor, and a brand new Seagate. I
have a CD-ROM and nothing else on the tower except fans.

When booting up, when the machine is cold, I occasionally hear a weird
sound that can best be described almost as if the hard drives (sounds
like it's coming from the HD bay) are "spinning faster with friction".
The sound is like that of a turboprop plane that switches from idle to
'take off power' on the runway--a sound like the engine is kicking
into higher gear.

THe workaround to get rid of the sound is simple: when it happens
(and it only happens once in a while, but it's happening more often)
simply power down the machine, let it rest for a few seconds, then
repower, and the sound stops.

Anybody else heard this, and do you think it's HD failure? If so, how
much longer before the HD fails? I do backup every few days, so data
loss is not a big deal. My concern is that if it's the new HD, I just
swapped it in and spent half a day getting it right, and also I hate
to have to migrate the second (older) drive; also, what if it's the
new drive that's the problem and I swap out the old drive?

It's true however that five years (the age of the old HD) is "middle
age" for a HD, but I'm hoping to get a few more years out of it.

Any ideas? Please let me know if you have practical experience with
this problem rather than just theoretical knowledge. For now, I'm
just letting it be.

RL

 

[BigJim]

fans can make weird sounds too.

 

[Bill Anderson]

When booting up, when the machine is cold, I occasionally hear a weird
sound that can best be described almost as if the hard drives (sounds
like it's coming from the HD bay) are "spinning faster with friction".
The sound is like that of a turboprop plane that switches from idle to
'take off power' on the runway--a sound like the engine is kicking
into higher gear.

My computer occasionally makes a sound very much like what you describe.
Did it yesterday, in fact. I even thought to myself I'd better put
the seatback tray in an upright and locked position because it sounds
like somebody's getting ready for takeoff. In my case, though, the
noise wasn't coming from a hard drive; it was coming from my Plextor
PX-716A CD-DVD burner. I had a movie DVD (commercial, not writeable) in
the drive. I figured the DVD must have been unbalanced or something.
It was an Alpha Video DVD -- "Col. Effingham's Raid" if that's of any
interest. When I pushed the open tray button on the drive, the noise
slowed to a stop before the tray opened. The drive makes no noise when
running most other disks.

 

[Frank McCoy]

In alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt Bill Anderson

My computer occasionally makes a sound very much like what you describe.
Did it yesterday, in fact. I even thought to myself I'd better put
the seatback tray in an upright and locked position because it sounds
like somebody's getting ready for takeoff. In my case, though, the
noise wasn't coming from a hard drive; it was coming from my Plextor
PX-716A CD-DVD burner. I had a movie DVD (commercial, not writeable) in
the drive. I figured the DVD must have been unbalanced or something.
It was an Alpha Video DVD -- "Col. Effingham's Raid" if that's of any
interest. When I pushed the open tray button on the drive, the noise
slowed to a stop before the tray opened. The drive makes no noise when
running most other disks.

A common cause for such a squeal is a fan going bad.
I'd pull the cover off and watch your fans as they start up.
If it's the CPU fan, then problems could be on your way in a hurry.
Same thing with a vide-card fan.
Case fans are a little less urgent; but should still be tended-to.

 

[raylopez99]

In alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt Bill Anderson

A common cause for such a squeal is a fan going bad.
I'd pull the cover off and watch your fans as they start up.
If it's the CPU fan, then problems could be on your way in a hurry.
Same thing with a vide-card fan.
Case fans are a little less urgent; but should still be tended-to.

--

Thanks Bill Anderson and Frank McCoy.

Bill--I doubt it's a DVD--I only have a CD, but, I could be wrong--it
sounds like it's not coming from the CD, but lower down--however, if
it was the HD I would be surprised.

Frank--how do you replace a CPU fan? I've replaced a case fan no
problem, but a CPU fan is glued on, no? Lots of work with solvents
and Q-tips, no?

RL

 

[peter]

A Cpu fan is attached to the heatsink which is attached to the CPU by means
of thermal compound or a thermal pad.
The fan is usually attached by means of screws..........the heatsink by
means of clips..Depending upon the CPU that you have.
In order to remove the Heatsink you would undo the clips..grasp the sink and
gently twist to break the compound connection and then lift off.
In order to replace the sink the old compound would need to be
replaced....wipe it off gently with a lint free cloth finger dipped in
Isoprophyl Alcohol from both the CPU and the base of the sink.Then reapply
new compound .a drop of the stuff on each surface spread carefully and
evenly.
Again depending upon the heatsink the fan can be replaced .
peter

 

[Frank McCoy]

Thanks Bill Anderson and Frank McCoy.

Bill--I doubt it's a DVD--I only have a CD, but, I could be wrong--it
sounds like it's not coming from the CD, but lower down--however, if
it was the HD I would be surprised.

Frank--how do you replace a CPU fan? I've replaced a case fan no
problem, but a CPU fan is glued on, no? Lots of work with solvents
and Q-tips, no?

A. No, they're generally screwed onto the heatsink.
B. You usually replace both heatsink *and* fan at the same time.

The price of a new heatsing/fan combo is usually just about the same
price as the fan alone. You unclip the fan/heatsink combo from the CPU,
clean the old compound off the CPU, put a tiny big of fresh compound
(Usually "Arctic Silver") on, where the CPU contacts the heatsink, and
then clip the new heatsink onto the CPU; taking care to make sure it's
the correct way around.

Removing and replacing (unclipping and clipping) the heatsink from the
CPU can be a bit tricky if you've never done it before; but using a
small flat-bladed screwdriver, it usually isn't that hard to do.

If shy, have the local computer shop replace it.
They shouldn't charge all that much extra.

 

[raylopez99]

Thanks. Since I don't have one of those thermometers on my mobo, I
don't know if the CPU is running too hot, but I don't think it is--I
suppose you can't tell if your CPU fan has failed unless you take the
cover off. In any event, it sounds easy to replace the CPU fan, I'll
keep in mind what you said if it comes to that.

RL

 

[Frank McCoy]

Thanks. Since I don't have one of those thermometers on my mobo, I
don't know if the CPU is running too hot, but I don't think it is--I
suppose you can't tell if your CPU fan has failed unless you take the
cover off. In any event, it sounds easy to replace the CPU fan, I'll
keep in mind what you said if it comes to that.

You need to replace the CPU fan (or video-board fan) BEFORE it fails.
Generally the CPU won't even overheat until it does fail.
When it goes however, things could get rather *expensive*.

Generally, unless you have software in place to shut the system down
when things overheat, when it does overheat is when it's WAY too late.

If wanting to check your CPU & mobo temperatures and don't have software
from the company that supplies your particular motherboard, then try
SiSandra:
http://www.sisoftware.co.uk/

Still, I'd look on the website of the makers of your motherboard (or
computer) first. Look for tools or utilities.

 

[raylopez99]

You need to replace the CPU fan (or video-board fan) BEFORE it fails.
Generally the CPU won't even overheat until it does fail.
When it goes however, things could get rather *expensive*.

Thanks again Frank. But what's the MTBF (mean time between failure)
for a CPU fan? Or a videocard fan? For a HD, it's five years. For a
sleeve bearing (i.e. cheap) case fan, it's probably five years too
(Just replaced my case fans, and they looked pretty beat up after 5
yrs use). For a more expensive ball-bearing(?) CPU fan, it's what? 7
years?

Generally, unless you have software in place to shut the system down
when things overheat, when it does overheat is when it's WAY too late.

If wanting to check your CPU & mobo temperatures and don't have software
from the company that supplies your particular motherboard, then try
SiSandra:http://www.sisoftware.co.uk/

Still, I'd look on the website of the makers of your motherboard (or
computer) first. Look for tools or utilities.

My motherboard is from 2002--way too old probably. But I just
downloaded the utility "MotherBoard Monitor 5.3.7" and will see if I
can sense temperature.

If you know of any hardware I can buy (a thermister and a glue patch
and wires/software to run it) please let me know, since I'd like to
sense temperature of not just the mainboard but CPU, HDs, Powersupply,
etc.

RL

 

[Frank McCoy]

Thanks again Frank. But what's the MTBF (mean time between failure)
for a CPU fan? Or a videocard fan? For a HD, it's five years. For a
sleeve bearing (i.e. cheap) case fan, it's probably five years too
(Just replaced my case fans, and they looked pretty beat up after 5
yrs use). For a more expensive ball-bearing(?) CPU fan, it's what? 7
years?

I've found CPU fans tend to last about 3-5 years.
One problem is that their heatsinks are very rarely cleaned.
That makes for back-pressure, overheating, and early failure.
The heatsinks of most CPUs are usually darned good lint-traps.

My motherboard is from 2002--way too old probably. But I just
downloaded the utility "MotherBoard Monitor 5.3.7" and will see if I
can sense temperature.

If you know of any hardware I can buy (a thermister and a glue patch
and wires/software to run it) please let me know, since I'd like to
sense temperature of not just the mainboard but CPU, HDs, Powersupply,
etc.

Again, SiSandra usually will do all that for you.
Well, perhaps except for the power-supply.

For the CPU and motherboard, like I said, get it from the mobo
manufacturer, if you can.

For Disk-drives, I use HDD Thermometer; which uses drive SMART features
to report internal temperatures.
http://www.email-x.net/software/hdd...rmometer_v1.3.exe---free-download-vt1094.html

 

[raylopez99]

I've found CPU fans tend to last about 3-5 years.
One problem is that their heatsinks are very rarely cleaned.
That makes for back-pressure, overheating, and early failure.
The heatsinks of most CPUs are usually darned good lint-traps.

Frank--

A question: if a CPU fan lasts 3-5 years don't you think people would
complain that their CPU has burnt out more often? That this is a big
problem? But I don't hear this being true. Perhaps the MTBF is
higher?

Another question: check out this "hardware" if you have a moment for
sensing temperature using some heat sensitive patches. It looks kind
of flakey and insufficient to me :
http://cgi.ebay.com/PC-Thermometer-...163821902QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290163821902

Anything better? I couldn't find h/w on the UK SiSandra site; maybe I
didn't look carefully enough.

I need to do more research on hardware to monitor temperatures--thanks
for the two links to temperature monitoring software--I'll install
them today, and the second one, since it uses S.M.A.R.T information
from the HD, which my HDs have, should work to report temps on the
HD. Not sure about the first one.

RL

 

[raylopez99]

More info:


I installed "Motherboard Monitor 5" utility and the CPU temp for a
Northwood series 120nm Pentium IV is 102-111F (or 39C to 44C) at idle
to light overhead, which from what I can tell here:
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/p4-throttling/index.html is
normal

Any other tips appreciated; thank you!

RL

 

[Patty]

Frank--

A question: if a CPU fan lasts 3-5 years don't you think people would
complain that their CPU has burnt out more often? That this is a big
problem? But I don't hear this being true. Perhaps the MTBF is
higher?

Some motherboards are set to shut down should the CPU fan stop. My system
raised an alarm and posted a message to the screen which alerted me to the
problem when my CPU fan died. I originally thought this was MBM5 which
raised the alarm, but when I checked those settings later, I found that the
CPU fan alarm was not activated, so I'm not sure now exactly what raised
the alarm. I believe my current BIOS is set to shut down the PC before the
CPU temperature becomes excessive enough to destroy the CPU. So, there can
be many CPU fan failures without CPUs being destroyed and there are
protections.

Btw, the original fan/heatsink was about 4 years old.

Patty

 

[Frank McCoy]

Frank--

A question: if a CPU fan lasts 3-5 years don't you think people would
complain that their CPU has burnt out more often? That this is a big
problem? But I don't hear this being true. Perhaps the MTBF is
higher?

Usually the system *shuts down* before the CPU overheats enough to burn
out. That's part of the design and why the CPU has a temperature sensor
inside in the first place.

Still, I had a video-card fan fail ... And burn out the processor on it,
the card itself, melt wires on the motherboard, and permanently damage
the power-supply.

 

[raylopez99]

Some motherboards are set to shut down should the CPU fan stop. My system
raised an alarm and posted a message to the screen which alerted me to the
problem when my CPU fan died. I originally thought this was MBM5 which
raised the alarm, but when I checked those settings later, I found that the
CPU fan alarm was not activated, so I'm not sure now exactly what raised
the alarm. I believe my current BIOS is set to shut down the PC before the
CPU temperature becomes excessive enough to destroy the CPU. So, there can
be many CPU fan failures without CPUs being destroyed and there are
protections.

Btw, the original fan/heatsink was about 4 years old.

Patty

Very interesting, thanks. Apparently your 4 year mainboard is not so
obsolete to have that shutdown feature. I doubt my five year old
board has this however--but now that I have MBM5, I'll be checking
temperatures more often, and will set the alarm feature--hopefully if
the fan dies I'll be around to shut the system down manually,
otherwise it will melt my processor chip and give me a good excuse to
rebuild a new system!

RL

 

[Patty]

Very interesting, thanks. Apparently your 4 year mainboard is not so
obsolete to have that shutdown feature. I doubt my five year old
board has this however--but now that I have MBM5, I'll be checking
temperatures more often, and will set the alarm feature--hopefully if
the fan dies I'll be around to shut the system down manually,
otherwise it will melt my processor chip and give me a good excuse to
rebuild a new system!

RL

While I cannot find a setting in the motherboard BIOS for my ASUS A7N8X-E
Deluxe motherboard, I believe that the fan stop warning may have come from
the BIOS. While, I believe the system will run without the fan working, it
will warn you. On reboot to check the fan, the ASUS board has a "voice"
(commonly referred to as the ASUS bitch) that tells bootup results. She
did tell me that the CPU fan had failed. So, the board must detect the
failure.

An older, I would guess about 8 years old or so, Abit KT7 would not run at
all if the fan was not plugged into the correct header on the board. If
the fan stopped it would immediately shut down. My Abit NF7-S has a
temperature setting in the BIOS to activate shutdown.

Depends on the board, the manufacturer and the BIOS for the CPU
protections. But there are protections there in most boards, even older
ones.

Patty

 

[Frank McCoy]

While I cannot find a setting in the motherboard BIOS for my ASUS A7N8X-E
Deluxe motherboard, I believe that the fan stop warning may have come from
the BIOS. While, I believe the system will run without the fan working, it
will warn you. On reboot to check the fan, the ASUS board has a "voice"
(commonly referred to as the ASUS bitch) that tells bootup results. She
did tell me that the CPU fan had failed. So, the board must detect the
failure.

An older, I would guess about 8 years old or so, Abit KT7 would not run at
all if the fan was not plugged into the correct header on the board. If
the fan stopped it would immediately shut down. My Abit NF7-S has a
temperature setting in the BIOS to activate shutdown.

Depends on the board, the manufacturer and the BIOS for the CPU
protections. But there are protections there in most boards, even older
ones.

That's why CPU fans have three wires, not just two.
The third wire is a "speed sensor" that provides output when the fan is
running.

The CPU itself has a temperature sensor inside it that can be monitored
for over-temperature. That usually takes resident software running on
the PC though. Both fan-speed and CPU temperature are usually checked
on startup by the BIOS. After that, usually a resident program is
needed to yell and scream or even shut things down if a fan stops or the
CPU overheats. Usually you need to get *that* from the board
manufacturer; though SiSandra will tell you what each (both fan speeds,
CPU and Board temps) is.

 

[Patty]

That's why CPU fans have three wires, not just two.
The third wire is a "speed sensor" that provides output when the fan is
running.

The CPU itself has a temperature sensor inside it that can be monitored
for over-temperature. That usually takes resident software running on
the PC though. Both fan-speed and CPU temperature are usually checked
on startup by the BIOS. After that, usually a resident program is
needed to yell and scream or even shut things down if a fan stops or the
CPU overheats. Usually you need to get *that* from the board
manufacturer; though SiSandra will tell you what each (both fan speeds,
CPU and Board temps) is.

All I know is my Abit NF7-S has a setting in the BIOS for temperature
shutdown. It's in the SoftMenu Setup and is explained as:

"CPU Over Temp. Protect. This item sets the temperature that would
shutdown the system automatically in order to prevent CPU overheats."

It also has a "PC Health" section in the BIOS that contains "Shutdown when
CPUFAN fail" which can be enabled or disabled. In the same section it has
"CPU Shutdown Temperature" which can be enabled or disabled, and "CPU
Warning Temperature" which can be set to a Celsius temperature. In order
for these settings to work, the OS must support ACPI functions.

So, I am guessing that on that particular board, the BIOS, with the aid of
the OS, will handle both CPU fan failure shutdown and CPU high temperature
shutdown.

Patty