General instructions to re-install Windows XP

[tcarp]

I'm on the journey to learn about doing a WinXP full install. I've actually
done this once (without choice) on my laptop when attempting to upgrade from
XP Home to XP Pro.

As I've been doing research on the web, it appears doing a periodic full
reinstall of Win isn't such a bad idea. My question is about the process.

The way I did it I had to reinstall all Windows upgrades and then the
applications and upgrades after the Win install. I also had to make settings
like Outlook email accounts, etc. Not such a big deal but for weeks after
there were little omissions (Adobe Reader, irfanview, etc.) that I had to
reinstall.

So the process generally was:

Win full install, Win upgrades, Win configuration settings (e.g. networks),
Applications, Application upgrades, Application configuration settings.
Worked but it seems pretty brute force.

What I've found on the net is mostly technical information about creating
boot CDs, etc. Before diving into the details, is there a site that provides
a very high level view of the overall process and how to cut some of the
steps down some? For example, is the Migration Tool useful at all during a
reinstall? Is there a checklist (e.g. make as complete a list of all the
applications installed)?

For my laptop I have the WinXP CD. I have a friend who will also journey
into the reinstall jungle with me who has a Lenova (where there was no CD but
it looks like they put something on a HD partition).

Any help getting educated would be appreciated. Just remember to keep it
high level for now. I want to get a sense of the journey first.

Thanks

Tom

 

[sandy58]

I'm on the journey to learn about doing a WinXP full install. I've actually
done this once (without choice) on my laptop when attempting to upgrade from
XP Home to XP Pro.

As I've been doing research on the web, it appears doing a periodic full
reinstall of Win isn't such a bad idea. My question is about the process.

The way I did it I had to reinstall all Windows upgrades and then the
applications and upgrades after the Win install. I also had to make settings
like Outlook email accounts, etc. Not such a big deal but for weeks after
there were little omissions (Adobe Reader, irfanview, etc.) that I had to
reinstall.

So the process generally was:

Win full install, Win upgrades, Win configuration settings (e.g. networks),
Applications, Application upgrades, Application configuration settings.
Worked but it seems pretty brute force.

What I've found on the net is mostly technical information about creating
boot CDs, etc. Before diving into the details, is there a site that provides
a very high level view of the overall process and how to cut some of the
steps down some? For example, is the Migration Tool useful at all during a
reinstall? Is there a checklist (e.g. make as complete a list of all the
applications installed)?

For my laptop I have the WinXP CD. I have a friend who will also journey
into the reinstall jungle with me who has a Lenova (where there was no CD but
it looks like they put something on a HD partition).

Any help getting educated would be appreciated. Just remember to keep it
high level for now. I want to get a sense of the journey first.

Thanks

Tom

Acronis True Image will give you just that. A "true image" of your
hdd, preferably made when your PC is running to your taste. You can
store the image (on a spare hdd) till you need it (next time your
system collapses).

 

[Anna]

I'm on the journey to learn about doing a WinXP full install. I've
actually
done this once (without choice) on my laptop when attempting to upgrade
from
XP Home to XP Pro.

As I've been doing research on the web, it appears doing a periodic full
reinstall of Win isn't such a bad idea. My question is about the process.

The way I did it I had to reinstall all Windows upgrades and then the
applications and upgrades after the Win install. I also had to make
settings
like Outlook email accounts, etc. Not such a big deal but for weeks after
there were little omissions (Adobe Reader, irfanview, etc.) that I had to
reinstall.

So the process generally was:

Win full install, Win upgrades, Win configuration settings (e.g.
networks),
Applications, Application upgrades, Application configuration settings.
Worked but it seems pretty brute force.

What I've found on the net is mostly technical information about creating
boot CDs, etc. Before diving into the details, is there a site that
provides
a very high level view of the overall process and how to cut some of the
steps down some? For example, is the Migration Tool useful at all during
a
reinstall? Is there a checklist (e.g. make as complete a list of all the
applications installed)?

For my laptop I have the WinXP CD. I have a friend who will also journey
into the reinstall jungle with me who has a Lenova (where there was no CD
but
it looks like they put something on a HD partition).

Any help getting educated would be appreciated. Just remember to keep it
high level for now. I want to get a sense of the journey first.

Thanks

Tom

Tom:
Not sure if my following comments will be "high level" and useful to you
since I'm unsure as to the meaning of that phrase in the context of this
issue, however, for what it's worth...

First of all, your statement that "it appears doing a periodic full
reinstall of Win (XP) isn't such a bad idea." is questionable in & of
itself. There's really no reason to undertake a "periodic" fresh install of
the OS (or in the case of an OEM machine using the recovery CD or partition)
unless one has good & sufficient reasons to do so, e.g., a seriously
corrupted OS that cannot be overcome through a Repair install or other
relatively simple processes, or some type of malware that is seemingly
impossible to remove, or other software-related problem(s) that can't be
corrected and which result in a dysfunctional system, etc., etc.

On the other hand I'm aware of many users who simply feel more comfortable
with their PC when they fresh install the OS from time-to-time. So be it.

It seems to me that what should be a user's prime objective when he or she
is satisfied with the operation of their system is to establish & maintain
on a routine basis a comprehensive backup program, particularly considering
a disk cloning or disk imaging system so that they routinely maintain an
up-to-date backup of their system on another HDD. And that this backup
should include *all* their data on their day-to-day working boot drive,
including their OS, all their programs & applications, user-created data,
etc. In short, *everything* that's on their internal HDD. Establishing &
maintaining an up-to-date comprehensive backup system along the lines I've
described will surely negate the need for "periodic" fresh installs of the
OS and the onerous task of a user's need to re:install all their programs &
data (as you have pointed out).

While there are so-called data migration programs (the Laplink program comes
to mind - there are others) that are designed to move programs/applications
from one system to another, most of them have serious limitations in our
experience. In most cases the user will need to reinstall their programs
following a fresh install of the OS. Not the most pleasant task for most
users.

Then there's the need to reinstall the MS critical (and perhaps other)
updates, although the recent release of SP3 makes that task less onerous.

But as the saying goes..."Yer pays yer money and yer makes yer cherce".
Anna

 

[PD43]

Acronis True Image will give you just that. A "true image" of your
hdd, preferably made when your PC is running to your taste. You can
store the image (on a spare hdd) till you need it (next time your
system collapses).

That's too simple. It's too understandable and cuts out all the drama.

You trying to ruin this cyber traveler's "journey"??

 

[Big_Al]

Acronis True Image will give you just that. A "true image" of your
hdd, preferably made when your PC is running to your taste. You can
store the image (on a spare hdd) till you need it (next time your
system collapses).

Sandy58 has a great idea. I've reloaded several times, about every
12-18 months. Same long drawn out process. Kills a day. I got ATI
about a 6mos. ago so when SP3 came out, I did a fresh reload, put in all
the patches, SP3, IE7, WMP11 etc etc., tweaked a few settings my way,
loaded a few apps etc and then stripped as much out as I could.
Removed Windows Messenger, did a clean up to clear caches etc.
I loaded ATI and imaged the drive and got it small enough to get it on a
DVD. Now the restore CD and the DVD are sitting there with a great
backup way back to a virgin load. I also make monthly images and daily
backups of select files.

I agree with everyone on both sides of the fence (non committal I guess)
on reloading a system. I used a laptop at the office for like 3
years and never reloaded it. It would have gone longer if I had not
retired. I screw with my laptop at home too much and I feel a reload
is needed, I guess I could fix it, just didn't. But that kinda tells
the story about why people have PC problems, since I "worked" with my pc
at the office I did only legit things and didn't install anything so it
was clean for a long time, at home I screw around, no wonder it don't
work!

Take the time once to load your PC, then image it.
It took me 5-7 hours to get that virgin PC working. And 20 minutes to
image it or restore it the next time I need it. A great savings.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

[...........]
As I've been doing research on the web, it appears doing a periodic full
reinstall of Win isn't such a bad idea. My question is about the process.
[...............]

Acronis True Image will give you just that. A "true image" of your
hdd, preferably made when your PC is running to your taste. You can
store the image (on a spare hdd) till you need it (next time your
system collapses).

Presumably, the OP wants to do a full re-install to get rid of all the
junk that accretes over time in the Windows OS. He seems not to want
to do a restoration of the OS as it existed at some previous point in time.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

[....] Is there a checklist (e.g. make as complete a list of all the
applications installed)?

A partial checklist is in:
Start | Settings | Control Panel | Add or Remove Programs

That is a list of programs that were installed. In addition to that
are the programs which can be executed but didn't need installation
that may be listed in C:/Program Files as .exe files.

There may also be various browser plug-ins listed in your browser.

Don't forget to back up your email files and your Favorites (Booknotes)
file, too.

[.......] I have a friend who will also journey
into the reinstall jungle with me who has a Lenova (where there
was no CD but it looks like they put something on a HD partition).

That System Restore partition contains the image of the hard drive
as it came from the factory - without your data files, without any
programs which you may have installed since then, and WITH the
trialware junk that OEMs put on their machines. Don't use that
System Restore unless you've backed up ALL your data and any
programs which you've installed. Most people, after a couple months,
just reformat that partition and use it for data storage.

*TimDaniels*

 

[PD43]

As I've been doing research on the web, it appears doing a periodic full
reinstall of Win isn't such a bad idea. My question is about the process.
[...............]

Acronis True Image will give you just that. A "true image" of your
hdd, preferably made when your PC is running to your taste. You can
store the image (on a spare hdd) till you need it (next time your
system collapses).

Presumably, the OP wants to do a full re-install to get rid of all the
junk that accretes over time in the Windows OS. He seems not to want
to do a restoration of the OS as it existed at some previous point in time.

That's possibly true, but I totally disagree with the premise that
it's a good idea to do that periodically. Do it once if you think
your system might benefit, then do an image backup once all the
programs you want are installed and running.

A year or so down the road if you think it's time to wipe everything
and start over, you can start from the point when that image was made,
saving you a ton of time.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

[....] I totally disagree with the premise that
it's a good idea to do that periodically. Do it once if you think
your system might benefit, then do an image backup once all the
programs you want are installed and running.

A year or so down the road if you think it's time to wipe everything
and start over, you can start from the point when that image was made,
saving you a ton of time.

Well... *I* do it periodically! I installed XP for the 1st time 4 or 5
years ago, and I think I'll re-install it again... sometime. Meanwhile,
I've added and removed a load of programs, I've added tons of email
and bookmarks, and it has gotten slow. What should I do?

*TimDaniels*

 

[PD43]

[....] I totally disagree with the premise that
it's a good idea to do that periodically. Do it once if you think
your system might benefit, then do an image backup once all the
programs you want are installed and running.

A year or so down the road if you think it's time to wipe everything
and start over, you can start from the point when that image was made,
saving you a ton of time.

Well... *I* do it periodically! I installed XP for the 1st time 4 or 5
years ago, and I think I'll re-install it again... sometime. Meanwhile,
I've added and removed a load of programs, I've added tons of email
and bookmarks, and it has gotten slow. What should I do?

A couple months ago I mothballed an XP system that had been running
smoothly for 6 years... never a reinstall, and no noticeable slowdown
that I could detect.

 

[Will]

And for those of us without the CD (and without any knowledge), a couple of
questions:

1. How can I tell whether the hidden recovery partition is still in place and
2. What's the process to exterminate the junk I've accumulated over the
years?
Can I format the C drive and reboot from the recovery drive?

 

[tcarp]

Tom:
Not sure if my following comments will be "high level" and useful to you
since I'm unsure as to the meaning of that phrase in the context of this
issue, however, for what it's worth...

First of all, your statement that "it appears doing a periodic full
reinstall of Win (XP) isn't such a bad idea." is questionable in & of
itself. There's really no reason to undertake a "periodic" fresh install of
the OS (or in the case of an OEM machine using the recovery CD or partition)
unless one has good & sufficient reasons to do so, e.g., a seriously
corrupted OS that cannot be overcome through a Repair install or other
relatively simple processes, or some type of malware that is seemingly
impossible to remove, or other software-related problem(s) that can't be
corrected and which result in a dysfunctional system, etc., etc.

On the other hand I'm aware of many users who simply feel more comfortable
with their PC when they fresh install the OS from time-to-time. So be it.

It seems to me that what should be a user's prime objective when he or she
is satisfied with the operation of their system is to establish & maintain
on a routine basis a comprehensive backup program, particularly considering
a disk cloning or disk imaging system so that they routinely maintain an
up-to-date backup of their system on another HDD. And that this backup
should include *all* their data on their day-to-day working boot drive,
including their OS, all their programs & applications, user-created data,
etc. In short, *everything* that's on their internal HDD. Establishing &
maintaining an up-to-date comprehensive backup system along the lines I've
described will surely negate the need for "periodic" fresh installs of the
OS and the onerous task of a user's need to re:install all their programs &
data (as you have pointed out).

While there are so-called data migration programs (the Laplink program comes
to mind - there are others) that are designed to move programs/applications
from one system to another, most of them have serious limitations in our
experience. In most cases the user will need to reinstall their programs
following a fresh install of the OS. Not the most pleasant task for most
users.

Then there's the need to reinstall the MS critical (and perhaps other)
updates, although the recent release of SP3 makes that task less onerous.

But as the saying goes..."Yer pays yer money and yer makes yer cherce".
Anna

Anna, Timothy

Thanks for taking the time to post. I've already learned that my assumption
about periodic re-install may be misguided (I certainly don't fit into the
group that "just likes" having a clean system every so often). I've also
learned that there are some other steps to take before going to a reinstall,
that there's a backup strategy to be followed. And I've learned I have a lot
to learn.

Let's start with what to do when things are acting a bit wierd. "Wierd" in
this case starts with a call from a friend whose scanner stopped working.
She's already been through a lot of hours with HP trying to get it fixed
including making sure all the software components were there and functioning.
It also included a complete reinstall of the scanner software. Along the
way were some messages about corrupted .dll files. A local friendly Office
Depot gave her an exact duplicate scanner to try but the problem persisted.
The same OD gave her a very good deal on an older version of the scanner
which eventually did work (but not without another corrupted .dll message
during the install). Today a replacement scanner is working but the journey
left a lot of questions thus the interest in possibly doing a full install.

Maybe the thing to do is to go through 1) what we should have done (and
maybe still want to do) and 2) review the backup method she uses to see if
there might be a restore possibility still available (this will also be a
good review of my backup methods).

The only thing I did for them (other than offer a slightly higher
understanding of Windows) was to have them clean the Registry. As we went
through a complete uninstall/install of the scanner (it's actually a 4-in-1
device) we got past the point of failure that indicated a corrupt .dll. When
we ultimately installed the new scanner that ultimately worked the first time
trhough the install failed indicated a corrupt .dll (a different one). The
HP installer recognized the failure, did an uninstall, and the next time the
install was tried it finished fine and the replacement device worked.

What should we have done (or still might want to do)? Remember, the scanner
stopping working was the original problem and the corrupt .dll file messages
happened while trying to fix the problem.

I'm assuming a registry clean is one of the things to do. Is the only other
thing a Repair?

Moving on the the backup strategy and whether there is still an option she
might have available.

We both have good backup habits, meaning we do them every week or so. I use
Retrospect and she uses the Bounce Back that came with her Seagate external
HD. I have to check with her on what BB is backing up and whether it's
incremental.

Let's assume that she has full system backups. Are you implying that she
can "just" restore everything but the Documents folders to put the system
back to a place before the failures began? In the case of the 2 .dll files
that were said to be corrupted, the create and update dates are quite old
which I assume means they are in an uncorrputed state on the backups.

Should she restore those two .dll files? Is that dangerous? Can it be done
while the Windows is running?

Let's turn now to the backup strategy and the idea of images.

From your note doing a "complete" backup periodically is the idea. Do
incrementals count or are those mostly for documents (in case they are lost
or a bad update is saved)?

What about the idea of images (which is what I'm assuming she has on her
ThinkPad from Lenova)? How do images differ from backups? Are they used to
boot from (just in case) or are they used to restore Windows if needed?

As you can tell, my interest is to learn and avoid what one poster called
the "cyber journey".

Sorry for the fragmented post. I'm not sure even how to ask some of the
questions yet.

Tom

 

[Anna]

Thanks for taking the time to post. I've already learned that my
assumption
about periodic re-install may be misguided (I certainly don't fit into the
group that "just likes" having a clean system every so often). I've also
learned that there are some other steps to take before going to a
reinstall,
that there's a backup strategy to be followed. And I've learned I have a
lot
to learn.

Let's start with what to do when things are acting a bit wierd. "Wierd"
in
this case starts with a call from a friend whose scanner stopped working.
She's already been through a lot of hours with HP trying to get it fixed
including making sure all the software components were there and
functioning.
It also included a complete reinstall of the scanner software. Along the
way were some messages about corrupted .dll files. A local friendly
Office
Depot gave her an exact duplicate scanner to try but the problem
persisted.
The same OD gave her a very good deal on an older version of the scanner
which eventually did work (but not without another corrupted .dll message
during the install). Today a replacement scanner is working but the
journey
left a lot of questions thus the interest in possibly doing a full
install.

Maybe the thing to do is to go through 1) what we should have done (and
maybe still want to do) and 2) review the backup method she uses to see if
there might be a restore possibility still available (this will also be a
good review of my backup methods).

The only thing I did for them (other than offer a slightly higher
understanding of Windows) was to have them clean the Registry. As we went
through a complete uninstall/install of the scanner (it's actually a
4-in-1
device) we got past the point of failure that indicated a corrupt .dll.
When
we ultimately installed the new scanner that ultimately worked the first
time
trhough the install failed indicated a corrupt .dll (a different one).
The
HP installer recognized the failure, did an uninstall, and the next time
the
install was tried it finished fine and the replacement device worked.

What should we have done (or still might want to do)? Remember, the
scanner
stopping working was the original problem and the corrupt .dll file
messages
happened while trying to fix the problem.

I'm assuming a registry clean is one of the things to do. Is the only
other
thing a Repair?

Moving on the the backup strategy and whether there is still an option she
might have available.

We both have good backup habits, meaning we do them every week or so. I
use
Retrospect and she uses the Bounce Back that came with her Seagate
external
HD. I have to check with her on what BB is backing up and whether it's
incremental.

Let's assume that she has full system backups. Are you implying that she
can "just" restore everything but the Documents folders to put the system
back to a place before the failures began? In the case of the 2 .dll
files
that were said to be corrupted, the create and update dates are quite old
which I assume means they are in an uncorrputed state on the backups.

Should she restore those two .dll files? Is that dangerous? Can it be
done
while the Windows is running?

Let's turn now to the backup strategy and the idea of images.

From your note doing a "complete" backup periodically is the idea. Do
incrementals count or are those mostly for documents (in case they are
lost
or a bad update is saved)?

What about the idea of images (which is what I'm assuming she has on her
ThinkPad from Lenova)? How do images differ from backups? Are they used
to
boot from (just in case) or are they used to restore Windows if needed?

As you can tell, my interest is to learn and avoid what one poster called
the "cyber journey".

Sorry for the fragmented post. I'm not sure even how to ask some of the
questions yet.

Tom

Tom:
First of all, with respect to "registry cleaners". I am far from being a fan
of those types of programs. Over the years I've seen so many problems
resulting from deficient programs of that type or user mishandling of same
that by & large we recommend against their use as a general proposition. I
realize there are many users who apparently use them with great gusto and
repeatedly sing their praises. I'm just not one of them. In any event I
seriously doubt a "cleaning" of the registry would have returned your
friend's scanner to a functional state.

If I correctly understand your post, you're indicating that your friend's
replacement scanner is properly functioning although you're still puzzled as
to the cause & remedy of the problem she was experiencing with her original
non-defective scanner. It's nearly impossible for me to diagnose what caused
the precise problem she was having let alone the specific solution to that
problem. It's possible a Repair install of the XP OS might have corrected
the problem or possibly other approaches such as the chkdsk and sfc/scannow
commands could have been tried to good effect - the preceding assuming, of
course, that the problem involved some corrupted system files that caused
the problem and not a driver issue.

All of which leads me to emphasize my original response to your query re the
importance (in my view) of a user establishing & maintaining a comprehensive
backup system whereby *all* the data on the user's day-to-day working HDD
would, in effect, be copied to another HDD so as to create a precise copy of
the "source" HDD at a particular point in time.

To that end our preference is for a user to employ a disk-to-disk cloning
program or disk-imaging program and use such as a systematic backup program.

There's a better-than-even chance that had your friend had such a program in
place at the time the scanner problem arose, her following difficulties
would likely have been avoided in that she would have been able to
relatively easily restore her system to a bootable, functional state
including the problem-free operation of her scanner.

You mentioned the Retrospect & BounceBack backup programs. I did work with
the Retrospect program some time ago. As I recall it was (is) basically
designed to back up user-created data; it is not a disk-cloning or
disk-imaging program as I recall. In any event I do recall that I wasn't
particularly thrilled with that program but I can't recall the details.

I am not at all familiar with the BounceBack program. Assuming that program
is a disk-cloning or disk-imaging program and your friend had previously
cloned or imaged the contents of her internal HDD to her (presumably) USB
external HDD prior to the time her scanner problem arose, could she not have
resurrected her system and thus return to a functional scanner through the
use of that program?

The disk-to-disk cloning program we greatly prefer is the Casper 5 program -
see http://www.fssdev.com

The Casper program is extremely simple to use even for an inexperienced
user, reasonably quick in operation, and quite effective. There's virtually
no
learning curve in undertaking the disk cloning process as one navigates
through the few easy-to-understand screens with a final mouse-click on the
button on the screen which will trigger the disk-cloning process. After
undertaking one or two disk-cloning operations it should take the user no
more than 15 - 20 seconds or so to get to that point.

But the truly significant advantage of the Casper 5.0 disk cloning program
compared with other disk cloning programs that we're familiar with, e.g.,
Acronis True Image, is its ability to create *incremental* disk clones
following the creation of the original (first) disk clone. Employing what
Casper calls its "SmartClone" technology the program can create subsequent
disk clones of the source HDD usually at a fraction of the time it takes to
create a "full" disk clone. This results in a decided incentive for the user
to undertake frequent complete backups of his or her system knowing that
they can create "incremental" disk clones in a relatively short period of
time. Understand that this "incremental disk clone" is a *complete* clone
(copy) of the "source" HDD.

Bear in mind that the recipient of the clone - the "destination" HDD
(internal or external) - would contain the *complete* contents of one's
internal HDD (presumably the boot drive). Since that destination drive would
be a precise copy of the source HDD, its contents would be immediately
accessible and potentially bootable. Naturally its contents could be cloned
back to a internal HDD should a restoration of the system be necessary.
Again, what better backup system can one have? And again - because the
Casper disk-cloning operation takes a relatively short period of time to
complete its disk-cloning operations there's a strong incentive for the user
to more frequently keep their backups up-to-date than they might otherwise
do.

Again, I want to emphasize that the main advantage of the Casper 5 program
in comparison with other disk-cloning programs is its rather remarkable
ability to *routinely* clone the contents of one HDD to another HDD
(following the initial disk-cloning process) in a fraction of the time it
generally takes for other disk-cloning (as well as disk-imaging) programs to
complete the process. In my experience this is a strong incentive for the
user to back up their systems on a frequent basis - perhaps even once a day
or two or three times a week - knowing that the disk-cloning operation will
take only a few short minutes to complete the process. And at the end of
that process the user will have at hand a "perfect copy" of their day-to-day
working HDD. I ask again - what better backup system can one have? And have
it in a relatively short time?

The Casper 5.0 program is also capable of scheduling the disk-cloning
process on a daily, weekly, or other time period selected by the user so
that should the user prefer he or she could arrange for automatic backups at
pre-determined times.

There's a trial version available at
http://www.fssdev.com/products/casper/trial/ although it's somewhat crippled
it should give one a good idea as to how the program works.

The downside to the Casper 5 program as compared with the Acronis and most
other disk-cloning programs is the cost of the program which comes to $49.95
for the program + $9.95 for the "Casper Startup Disk" (the program to create
the bootable CD containing the Casper program - needed to access the program
in the event of a failed HDD). This "Startup Disk" is really an essential
piece of the program; I can't imagine a Casper user not having this media.
It's a pity that this "Startup Disk" is an added-cost option; in our view it
should be provided as part of the overall program and included in the
program's $49.95 cost. We have complained to the developer about this but
alas that additional cost for the "Startup Disk" is still present.

So the cost of the program is more expensive than the others. Be that as it
may, in our view it's still well worth the additional cost considering its
overall
effectiveness and the fact that one will be using the program many, many
times over the weeks, months, and years ahead. We've introduced the program
to many users (including former ATI users) and I can't recall a single
person who regretted his/her purchase. AFAIK, the program is available only
through download from the developer.

Another possible downside to the Casper 5 program (depending upon one's
interests) is that it's really not designed to create "generational" copies
of one's system although it is possible to use the program that way
depending upon the size of one's data and the disk size of the "destination"
HDD (the recipient of the clones). Some users like to maintain complete
copies of their system at various points in time. In other words, for
example, a user might want to retain (for one reason or another) a complete
copy of his or her system as it existed on July 1 and another copy as of
July 3 and another copy as of July 5, etc., etc. To that end a disk-imaging
program (such as the Acronis one) is more practical since to accomplish that
objective using a disk-cloning program such as Casper 5 the user would
obviously need a fair number of HDDs to serve as the recipients of the
clones at those various points in time. But based on our experience I would
say that the vast number of users are simply interested in maintaining only
a current up-to-date copy of their system and have little or no interest in
maintaining "generational" copies of such. But that capability may be a
consideration for some users.

So I would recommend that you or any user who is interested in a
comprehensive backup program should try the Casper 5 program to determine if
that program meets their needs.
Anna

 

[tcarp]

Tim

Again, I am so grateful for the time you, Anna, and others are taking here.
It's beginning to make some sense for me (and hopefully for others). I'll be
asking more questions of Anna on cloning, etc. For you are questions about
the applications. Both of you are striking a theme of good habits for backup
and documentation just in case restores are needed.

It looks like the three major groups of "stuff" on a system are Windows (I'm
ignoring BIOS and DOS here), the applications, and user data. I'll persue
Windows in a reply to Anna.

A partial checklist is in:
Start | Settings | Control Panel | Add or Remove Programs

That is a list of programs that were installed. In addition to that
are the programs which can be executed but didn't need installation
that may be listed in C:/Program Files as .exe files.

There may also be various browser plug-ins listed in your browser.

The checklist sounds like add/remove, executables in Program Files, and
browser plug ins.

Remembering I'm here to learn, not solve a particular problem, when do
executables require installation and when don't they?

Don't forget to back up your email files and your Favorites (Booknotes)
file, too.

I've taken the path to understanding .pst files (Outlook) and can find the
bookmark files for my browsers (IE and Firefox) on my own.

Focusing on Outlook (in my case), there are also settings (e.g. accounts).
I've never had to look for those but during a restore it would be nice to
bypass the task of re-entering all the email account data (POP, SMTP, etc.)
by just doing a restore.

There are so many configuration settings in Windows (accounts, power
options, etc.) and in applications (like Outlook) it seems like a tough one
to prepare to restore. Is there any pattern or practice or is it just get
each one documented in the "checklist"?

Finally, the Lenovo:

That System Restore partition contains the image of the hard drive
as it came from the factory - without your data files, without any
programs which you may have installed since then, and WITH the
trialware junk that OEMs put on their machines. Don't use that
System Restore unless you've backed up ALL your data and any
programs which you've installed. Most people, after a couple months,
just reformat that partition and use it for data storage.

Is the "image of the hard drive" simple mean it is structured like Windows
Explorer would display for the C drive? (I know this is one of those 'just
look for yourself, you lazy bum' questions, but remember I don't have the
Lenovo - it's the one my friend has and from what we talked about on the
phone the other day she can't "see" another drive (partition) when she goes
to My Computer.)

Assuming it is structured like the C partition, is the system restore
process for Lenovo just wiping out the C drive and putting it back the way it
came from the factory? (ugly!!!)

Can that partition be used as a bootable if the C gets clobbered or is it
best to create bootable CDs for emergencies? (I've done some preliminary
searching on the net for creating bootables but I haven't found the "happy
path" for a system with no floppy).

Thanks again

Tom

 

[tcarp]

First of all, with respect to "registry cleaners". I am far from being a fan

of those types of programs. Over the years I've seen so many problems
resulting from deficient programs of that type or user mishandling of same
that by & large we recommend against their use as a general proposition. I
realize there are many users who apparently use them with great gusto and
repeatedly sing their praises. I'm just not one of them. In any event I
seriously doubt a "cleaning" of the registry would have returned your
friend's scanner to a functional state.

Thanks for the advice not to make Registry cleaners a religion. I've only
used one once and it appears it did correct a problem that was causing a very
look restart on my laptop. We did run it on my friends laptop and one of the
..dll failures went away but I can't in all honesty say the two were related.
I don't like using programs that mess with key files much unless they come
from the vendor themselves so your advice is accepted with relief.

If I correctly understand your post, you're indicating that your friend's
replacement scanner is properly functioning although you're still puzzled as
to the cause & remedy of the problem she was experiencing with her original
non-defective scanner. It's nearly impossible for me to diagnose what caused
the precise problem she was having let alone the specific solution to that
problem. It's possible a Repair install of the XP OS might have corrected
the problem or possibly other approaches such as the chkdsk and sfc/scannow
commands could have been tried to good effect - the preceding assuming, of
course, that the problem involved some corrupted system files that caused
the problem and not a driver issue.

I didn't come here to get the scanner situation resolved although I will do
a second reply post to take you through the history. From your post I'm
focused on getting into the backup habits so both of us (and for that matter
the other two PCs in my household) are prepared.

All of which leads me to emphasize my original response to your query re the
importance (in my view) of a user establishing & maintaining a comprehensive
backup system whereby *all* the data on the user's day-to-day working HDD
would, in effect, be copied to another HDD so as to create a precise copy of
the "source" HDD at a particular point in time.

To that end our preference is for a user to employ a disk-to-disk cloning
program or disk-imaging program and use such as a systematic backup program.

There's a better-than-even chance that had your friend had such a program in
place at the time the scanner problem arose, her following difficulties
would likely have been avoided in that she would have been able to
relatively easily restore her system to a bootable, functional state
including the problem-free operation of her scanner.

Anna, let me make sure I understand what d2d cloning or imaging programs
actually do. Tim mentioned that the Lenovo second HDD partition contained a
duplicate of the C drive when the system came from the factory. Is this what
these cloning utilities produce? In other words, would Windows Explorer show
them in a directory structure?

You mentioned the Retrospect & BounceBack backup programs. I did work with
the Retrospect program some time ago. As I recall it was (is) basically
designed to back up user-created data; it is not a disk-cloning or
disk-imaging program as I recall. In any event I do recall that I wasn't
particularly thrilled with that program but I can't recall the details.

I am not at all familiar with the BounceBack program. Assuming that program
is a disk-cloning or disk-imaging program and your friend had previously
cloned or imaged the contents of her internal HDD to her (presumably) USB
external HDD prior to the time her scanner problem arose, could she not have
resurrected her system and thus return to a functional scanner through the
use of that program?

Retrospect (and I think BB) can back up every file on a system. I think BB
and Retrospect are competing apps and the version of BB my friend has is the
"express" version that Seagate included when you buy their external HDD (I
also have a Seagate external so have a copy of the same BB but I purchased
the commercial version of Retrospect some time ago. I have a Mac and 2 PC
laptops and wanted something a bit more capable than the free express
version).

Since I'm not sure what the cloning/imaging programs do (yet) lets see if we
might have a backup that my friend could use to restore (if needed). Also,
since your mantra is an intellegently designed backup discipline I'd like to
make sure I understand the tool differences.

I have to do some homework to remember how BB works but I think it does an
incremental backup in windows format. Retrospect (the commercial version),
on the other hand, has the option to store the backups in one file and keeps
an external directory file or to produce a "copy" in the file format of the
system being backed up.

In my case I do incremental backups until the backup file gets pretty large.
Since I never got to a file size that is "pretty large" until very recently,
I've never thought of what to do next but my thought is to start another file
keeping the -1 version until it was safe to delete it. As I sit here and
think about this now I realize that I had no backup strategy that I put into
practice to periodically start a new backup file from scratch. Retrospect
does this "start a new file" quite nicely. It has 3 types of backups: normal
which is an incremental, recycle which reuses the media (e.g. does a full
backup wiping out the previous backup, and "????" which is just like the
recycle type but it doesn't wipe out the old file (i.e. it creates a new
version).

I'm not taking the time to explain this because of Retrospect, but as a way
of comparing it to cloning and imaging utilities (why buy something new if
the old works reasonably well). You are right, however, that it may be the
right thing is to use both; Retrospect for user data and another utility for
the OS.

The disk-to-disk cloning program we greatly prefer is the Casper 5 program -
see http://www.fssdev.com

I'll do my homework by looking closely at Casper. Regardless of what I (we)
choose to do I'd like to go back and see what one might do with a clone on a
HDD. This will start moving the discussion to me building a backup strategy
(and one for my friend) and learning what to do when we run into problems.

In a separate post to Tim I've asked some questions about the content of the
PC (e.g. OS, applications, user data). It seems to me that understanding
(and inventoring) what data is stored where is an important learning. The OS
and applications, for example, have configuration settings (accounts, power
options, networks, etc.). Isn't it important to know where these are stored?

If I were cloning I might want (like with Lenovo) to have an image of the
current OS files (hopefully bootable) in case. I might even want that to
include the applications. Since both my friend and I have external HDDs,
there's enough room to store these for emergencies and restores.

But what's stored where?

Can I assume that it would be a good idea to do an inventory of my C drive
as part of the plan for a backup discipline? I'm not talking about down the
the file level (except to id where key data is stored) but more a folder
inventory at the top level. For example, a quick look at my C shows a dozen
or so folders and a few files. Some of the folders (program files, documents
and settings) are familiar, while others are not.

I have a folder, for example, called 9a5160959c527400938408 which contains a
txt file with the first record having the text "starting verbose logging".
Given the date it looks like it was something I did when plowing through my
windows xp upgrade problem. So, again, is it the right first step to do a
reasonably thorough configuration description of the files to prepare to
putting together a good backup strategy?

Tom

 

[tcarp]

Anna

If I correctly understand your post, you're indicating that your friend's
replacement scanner is properly functioning although you're still puzzled as
to the cause & remedy of the problem she was experiencing with her original
non-defective scanner. It's nearly impossible for me to diagnose what caused
the precise problem she was having let alone the specific solution to that
problem. It's possible a Repair install of the XP OS might have corrected
the problem or possibly other approaches such as the chkdsk and sfc/scannow
commands could have been tried to good effect - the preceding assuming, of
course, that the problem involved some corrupted system files that caused
the problem and not a driver issue.

Although I didn't come here to get input on my friend's scanner problem, let
me go over it briefly since, as it turns out, she may have a good backup of
her total system and there may still be some residual problems. I'm not
asking you to diagnose but more to understand if there are some things she
should do and to learn how to make sure there are good backups available the
next time.

Let me go over the sequence of events. She has a laptop that, when at home,
she plugs into a monitor, an HP All-in-One (scanner, printer, fax, copier),
and a bluetooth keyboard. She also plugs into an external HD when she does
backups.

Periodically she disconnects and uses the laptop standalone (travel, etc.)
One day a few weeks ago she had disconnected for 3-4 hours during which time
she checked email (trusted sources) and did some work on one of her data
files. When she reconnected the scanner didn't work (meaning it gave an
error message when she tried to use it - I don't have that message handy).
She checked around and noticed that printer and fax didn't seem to be
"defined" in Windows also.

Attempting to fix the problem herself she told Windows to add the printer.
Whatever happened next got lost in a very long multi-day dialog with HP.
From what I can gather they used remote console to check things out up to
actually uninstalling the software and reinstalling it again.

I got a call when she was in a panic because all her email and browser
settings appeared to have been lost. It turns out HP had left her default
log on to another admin account and she wasn't getting her account files
loaded. I had here log on to her normal account which cleared up the browser
and email file issue.

Her scanner however still didn't work. We started some basic tests and
found that she could still print and copy which told me the USB connection
and the hardware itself were working. My suspect was the driver but
apparantly a full install had been done. The error we were getting indicated
that the scanner was either showing in use or couldn't be detected (depending
on whether she was trying to scan or run a diagnostic utility).

Wanting to see it with my own eyes I suggested that we uninstall the HP
programs and do another reinstall from her original CDs. It seemed strange
to me that the scanner would just stop being recognized by the system and yet
she could print and the device copy which told me we weren't looking at a
hardware problem. But there was nothing in what she told me that indicated
some external force (other than the disconnect/reconnect) that would explain
things. I found that the time between successful scans wasn't just the time
when she had disconnected the laptop from her home configuration. The last
time she had used the scanner was a few days earlier. She's pretty cautious
about what she does with her PC and has active virus protection software
running (and does routine scans) so I didn't suspect anything getting into
her system (although it can't be ruled out).

What I did suspect was a corruption somewhere.

When we did the software reinstall it failed with an 126 error message that
pointed to a corrupt srvsvc.dll file. We were working our way toward
restoring that file (although I would have needed so dialog like this to have
had the confidence) but I decided to run the registry cleaner first. On the
next re-install of the device it ran to normal finish but the scanner problem
didn't go away.

The next step I was suggesting was for me to install the all-in-one on my
laptop to see if the problem followed the device.

Before we could get there her husband went to a local Office Depot asking
questions. Although they had purchased the HP device directly from HP the OD
manager offered to give them a demo loan of exactly the same device for
testing. They got it, plugged it in, but no scanner. This, of course, led
us to believe that the problem was in her pc.

Her husband kept talking to the Office Depot manager and was lead to believe
that this particular scanner+ had problems so he offered to sell them a
previous version at a considerably reduced price.

We installed the new device from scratch and during the install got a
message that there was a corrupted system file (wasn't the same file name but
very close and another .dll). I decided to let run the install again
(actually, HPs install utility was smart enough to recognize the failed
attempt so it did an uninstall and restarted the install). This time it ran
right to the end.

The scanner works.

Let's assume for just a second that one or more corrupt Windows files
are/were out there (I realize it could be a driver problem but I figured the
reinstall would have taken care of that).

I looked at the srvsvc.dll file and found that it's create and modification
dates are way back there which tells me it doesn't get updated. That would
mean that any backup copy would be fine as long as it was before the problem
began. But "corrupt" files is too generic for me to understand. The
corruption would have to be on the hard drive wouldn't it? Unless the dll
file is getting loaded into a bad ROM spot doesn't the curruption have to
occur on the HD?

And when we first saw the 126 message (forget that it went away after a
registry clean) should we have gone ahead and figured out how to restore the
..dll file?

Keep in mind that she went through long hours with HP trying everything they
suggested including checking for running tasks. The only wierd thing was a
couple programs that couldn't be removed (add/remove programs) but HP claimed
they were for different devices than the scanner.

Anna, again, I'm not asking you to spend time diagnosing the scanner
problem. But I am interested in your thoughts in the context of the backup
and restore theme behind this thread.

I very much appreciate the time you're taking here. Good learning for me
and is very helpful figuring out not only are there some things we
should/could have done to solve the scanner problem but also in reviewing and
updating my/our backup strategies.

Tom

 

[tcarp]

Tim

The lights are starting to come on. I made a list of all the folders and
files at the top level of my C drive and have started identifying content.
It seems that understanding that structure will be an important part of the
backup strategy.

This is the list of folders:

9a5160959c527400938408 (contains a txt file with a 7 minute detail log)
css (has four css files)
Documents and Settings (my stuff of course)
html (has 3 html files (format "file:///C:/html/crystalprinthost.html")
images (has all sorts of small navigation and tool bar gifs)
js (has some js files)
MSOCache
Palm (Palm Pilot program and data files)
Program Files (programs)
prompting (similar to the css, html, images, and js files but all in one
folder)
RECYCLER (3 small files)
System Volume Information (unaccessible)
Temp (empty)
Windows (windows, I assume)

The rest of these are files:

AUTOEXEC.BAT
boot.ini
config.sys
drwtsn32.log
IO.SYS
MSDOS.SYS
NTDETECT.COM
ntldr
pagefile.sys

I have a suspicion that the css, images, html, js and prompting folders
belong to Crystal Reports somehow. If I ignore those, the Palm and the
hiddens am I correct in seeing 3 basic folders: Documents and Settings,
Program Files, and Windows?

Are there some assumptions I can start making about these folders? For
example, I know that the .pst files for Outlook is stored in the user's local
settings folder. Is this where outlook would also store account data (SMTP,
POP, etc.) or do I have more of a learning journey to find out where each
application might store it's data so, if a restore is needed, I've know where
to look?

I'm also assuming I might need to understand better what's in these folders
if I need to do a partial restore (e.g. restore outlook's pst but don't need
to restore the accounts).

Am I on the right path?

Tom

[....] Is there a checklist (e.g. make as complete a list of all the
applications installed)?

A partial checklist is in:
Start | Settings | Control Panel | Add or Remove Programs

That is a list of programs that were installed. In addition to that
are the programs which can be executed but didn't need installation
that may be listed in C:/Program Files as .exe files.

There may also be various browser plug-ins listed in your browser.

Don't forget to back up your email files and your Favorites (Booknotes)
file, too.

[.......] I have a friend who will also journey
into the reinstall jungle with me who has a Lenova (where there
was no CD but it looks like they put something on a HD partition).

That System Restore partition contains the image of the hard drive
as it came from the factory - without your data files, without any
programs which you may have installed since then, and WITH the
trialware junk that OEMs put on their machines. Don't use that
System Restore unless you've backed up ALL your data and any
programs which you've installed. Most people, after a couple months,
just reformat that partition and use it for data storage.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Anna]

(SNIP)

The scanner (now) works.

Let's assume for just a second that one or more corrupt Windows files
are/were out there (I realize it could be a driver problem but I figured
the
reinstall would have taken care of that).

I looked at the srvsvc.dll file and found that it's create and
modification
dates are way back there which tells me it doesn't get updated. That
would
mean that any backup copy would be fine as long as it was before the
problem
began. But "corrupt" files is too generic for me to understand. The
corruption would have to be on the hard drive wouldn't it? Unless the dll
file is getting loaded into a bad ROM spot doesn't the curruption have to
occur on the HD?

And when we first saw the 126 message (forget that it went away after a
registry clean) should we have gone ahead and figured out how to restore
the .dll file?

Keep in mind that she went through long hours with HP trying everything
they
suggested including checking for running tasks. The only wierd thing was
a
couple programs that couldn't be removed (add/remove programs) but HP
claimed they were for different devices than the scanner.

Anna, again, I'm not asking you to spend time diagnosing the scanner
problem. But I am interested in your thoughts in the context of the
backup
and restore theme behind this thread.

I very much appreciate the time you're taking here. Good learning for me
and is very helpful figuring out not only are there some things we
should/could have done to solve the scanner problem but also in reviewing
and updating my/our backup strategies.
Tom

Tom:
There's little that I can add of any significance that can shed any light on
your friend's scanner problem in terms of how & why the problem arose, and
more importantly what course of action could have been taken to correct the
problem. Whether the problem arose as a consequence of a defective scanner
or a software issue bearing on the scanner's performance is impossible for
me to determine. Suffice to say I'm glad all is well at this point.

The point I was trying to make in my prior posts vis-a-vis the scanner
problem is that if the problem had arisen as a consequence of one or more
corrupted system files or other software issue and at the time your friend
had in hand, in effect, a precise up-to-date copy of her HDD, i.e., a copy
of her entire system at a time the scanner was properly functioning, then
she could have restored her system at a time which presumably returned her
scanner to a workable state. Again, assuming no defective hardware was the
cause of the problem.

Just one last thing...
I see in your later post which was directed to Tim Daniels a rather
wide-ranging statement where you appear to be concerned with identifying
various kinds & types of files, folders, applications, etc. with a view of
using this information in some fashion to determine an appropriate strategy
to restore your system should that need arise. At least that's what I think
you have in mind.

With all due respect I think you're making this backup "strategy" a lot more
complicated than it needs to be. I really think all that's necessary for the
vast majority of PC users is a simple-to-use, straightforward in design,
reasonably quick and effective comprehensive backup program that can be
employed on a routine basis so that the user has a precise up-to-date copy
of their day-to-day working HDD that can be used to easily restore their
system to a bootable functional state. To that end I've given you my
recommendations in previous posts.

This doesn't negate, of course, the occasional on-the-fly backup (copy) of
this or that file/folder, etc. in between disk-cloning or disk-imaging
operations. But you're the best judge of what your specific needs are.
Anna

 

[tcarp]

There's little that I can add of any significance that can shed any light on

your friend's scanner problem in terms of how & why the problem arose, and
more importantly what course of action could have been taken to correct the
problem. Whether the problem arose as a consequence of a defective scanner
or a software issue bearing on the scanner's performance is impossible for
me to determine. Suffice to say I'm glad all is well at this point.

Anna,
We pretty much have put the scanner issue in the past. I mentioned it here
in passing just in case it triggered any thoughts on file corruption.
Because the failure was seen as somewhat random and without a root
explanation, the radar is up for anything out of the ordinary. Our focus
now, mostly based on comments on this thread, is to get a good backup
strategy in place.

The point I was trying to make in my prior posts vis-a-vis the scanner
problem is that if the problem had arisen as a consequence of one or more
corrupted system files or other software issue and at the time your friend
had in hand, in effect, a precise up-to-date copy of her HDD, i.e., a copy
of her entire system at a time the scanner was properly functioning, then
she could have restored her system at a time which presumably returned her
scanner to a workable state. Again, assuming no defective hardware was the
cause of the problem.

Based on your first post I've been doing some homework on backup
applications. They appear to fall into 2 categories: file/folder and
cloning/imaging. Retrospect and Bounce Back are two file/folder ones I have
some familiarity with. You mentioned Casper (clone/image) and there are
others.

I'm at a point in my learning of deciding whether you need one type (and if
so which would be best) or whether it would be nice to have both types.

If I have it right, cloners/imagers appear to be nice because you have an
exact replica of the HD on another HD (either a partition or an external).
The downside, if there is one, is the amount of disk space required. (That's
one reason for the questions of Tim about what's in the folders. More on
that below.) With an external HD, particularly since the cost/gig has come
way down, this becomes much less of an issue. It appears if you take the
cloner/imager route exclusively the strategy would be to get a good sized
external and concentrate on having only the OS cloned to a partition on the
computers internal HD. Do I have that logic right?

I need to do some homework on the bells and whistles of cloners/imagers to
see if they can do incrementals that can keep HD space requirements down
some, or other fancy tailspins, like producing bootables. In the mean time,
I can see the great advantage to having a clone/image available. BTW, do
cloners like Casper allow specifying folders to clone? In other words, if I
wanted to clone only a bootable OS with the current Windows settings but not
the applications and my documents can they do that? Could make a big
difference in whether to select cloning/imaging or file/folder.

I'm a bit more familiar with file/folder backup/restore applications. As I
mentioned, I've used Retrospect for a number of years to backup my Mac and my
PC laptops. No advertisement or testimony. It's just the one I've learned
how to use.

File/folder applications quite simply backup up all or selected
files/folders. I'm assuming most can do incrementals or fulls. They can
produce folders/files in native format or create a separate file (only
readable with the application). Retrospect uses the concept of backup sets
generations which means you can do incrementals for awhile and then tell it
to move to the next generation which will start a new file with a full backup
and then you continue on with incrementals. Sooner or later the older
generations can be deleted or moved to archive media.

Since I'm assuming that cloners/imagers and file/folder commercial
applications both allow for generations, incrementals, etc. the big
difference appears to be whether the backup is in native file format or in a
proprietary (and possibly compressed) file format.

As you can see I tend to ask my questions by writing what I think I
understand and then see where I might be wrong. No real question here other
than any help in understanding why, given we're home users, we would pick one
approach over the other or move toward both.

Just one last thing...
I see in your later post which was directed to Tim Daniels a rather
wide-ranging statement where you appear to be concerned with identifying
various kinds & types of files, folders, applications, etc. with a view of
using this information in some fashion to determine an appropriate strategy
to restore your system should that need arise. At least that's what I think
you have in mind.

With all due respect I think you're making this backup "strategy" a lot more
complicated than it needs to be. I really think all that's necessary for the
vast majority of PC users is a simple-to-use, straightforward in design,
reasonably quick and effective comprehensive backup program that can be
employed on a routine basis so that the user has a precise up-to-date copy
of their day-to-day working HDD that can be used to easily restore their
system to a bootable functional state. To that end I've given you my
recommendations in previous posts.

This doesn't negate, of course, the occasional on-the-fly backup (copy) of
this or that file/folder, etc. in between disk-cloning or disk-imaging
operations. But you're the best judge of what your specific needs are.

You caught me here. As I mentioned, writing what I think I know is my
somewhat twisted way of finding out where I'm wrong. You're absolutely right
about simplicity and I don't want anyone reading this to think otherwise. My
backup technique for the PCs is simply to do an incremental backup every week
or so and "takes my chances" that it's not frequent enough. Periodiacally I
force a new generation and move the -2 generation to CDs.

The reason for all the detail behind the file questions is probably more
oriented toward recovery than backup and, at that, is probably more about
learning about my PC than specific to backup/recovery. What might be related
is the question of whether to move toward cloning/imaging or file/folder. If
I had it right about HD space being an issue with cloners/imagers, and if the
intent is to make a copy on an internal HD partition (not much good if I have
to carry around a Seagate external), then keeping the space requirements down
seems to be important.

One last comment, the sea of backup applications is filled with players. In
the file/folder world people seem to either love or hate the applications.
Given your comments about Casper I don't intend to do much more application
comparisons in that field.

If I had to summarize, I'm kinda at the point of wanting both clone/image
capabilities AND file/folder capabilities. It may be that the right advice
for those who haven't invested yet in backup software and externals is to go
with cloning/imaging and by the biggest external they can afford. This is
also the first real good reason I've heard for buying an internal HD far
larger than what one might think they'd need (keep an image on a separate
partition).

As a reminder that I write what I think I know, comments and corrections are
welcome.