general contracting question: wiring a house for ethernet

F

Falco98

I've met a house-builder who would be interested in having houses wired for
networking pre-completion. I have the tools (or can acquire what i don't
already have), and i have experience with cat5e / cat6 wiring etc (and can
learn what else there is), but i'm not sure what would be a reasonable price
for a contractor to charge. he asked me yesterday, and i was honestly
unprepared to answer. How much would one charge to do an average-sized
house (i.e. in its skeletal stage, before drywall is up). I'm thinking of
just setting up a hub room, and running wires to all other rooms (maybe 2 to
some rooms, but not overdoing it).
thanks in advance for any ideas; sorry for being slightly OT.
~Mike
 
M

Martin

Falco98 said:
I've met a house-builder who would be interested in having houses
wired for networking pre-completion. I have the tools (or can
acquire what i don't already have), and i have experience with cat5e
/ cat6 wiring etc (and can learn what else there is), but i'm not
sure what would be a reasonable price for a contractor to charge. he
asked me yesterday, and i was honestly unprepared to answer. How
much would one charge to do an average-sized house (i.e. in its
skeletal stage, before drywall is up). I'm thinking of just setting
up a hub room, and running wires to all other rooms (maybe 2 to some
rooms, but not overdoing it).
thanks in advance for any ideas; sorry for being slightly OT.
~Mike

Aren't most people just using wireless these days?

Martin
 
C

Conor

Falco98 said:
I've met a house-builder who would be interested in having houses wired for
networking pre-completion. I have the tools (or can acquire what i don't
already have), and i have experience with cat5e / cat6 wiring etc (and can
learn what else there is), but i'm not sure what would be a reasonable price
for a contractor to charge. he asked me yesterday, and i was honestly
unprepared to answer. How much would one charge to do an average-sized
house (i.e. in its skeletal stage, before drywall is up). I'm thinking of
just setting up a hub room, and running wires to all other rooms (maybe 2 to
some rooms, but not overdoing it).
thanks in advance for any ideas; sorry for being slightly OT.
~Mike
As a rough rule of thumb it works out about £50 per point in the UK for
a cable run from a router to a wallplate. - $80??
 
F

Falco98

Aren't most people just using wireless these days?

i wouldn't think so... except for laptops, wireless is cheaper, more secure,
and faster. all of these points have caveats of course, but it's
fundamentally true, especially since PCs these days generally have on-board
networking. with wires already laid, it's a little bit pointless to go
through the additional expense of making things wireless that don't need to
be (i.e. adding wireless PCI cards to PCs).
 
J

jaster

i wouldn't think so... except for laptops, wireless is cheaper, more
secure, and faster. all of these points have caveats of course, but
it's fundamentally true, especially since PCs these days generally have
on-board networking. with wires already laid, it's a little bit
pointless to go through the additional expense of making things wireless
that don't need to be (i.e. adding wireless PCI cards to PCs).


Except for the wire into the house it doesn't make much sense to waste
money on a wired network if if you're wiring for cable tv. For the price
of wiring the house you can get a wireless network, even if the the wired
NIC is free. Today's wireless is faster than wired, more flexible
placement than wired and about the same price as wired. If you add a
media center or laptop to the network you wouldn't need to worry about
location because of the wiring. You could also stick you modem, router,
printer, scan, copiers (attached to a server) to shelves in the basement
out of way.
 
J

JAD

jaster said:
Except for the wire into the house it doesn't make much sense to waste
money on a wired network if if you're wiring for cable tv. For the price
of wiring the house you can get a wireless network, even if the the wired
NIC is free. Today's wireless is faster than wired,

Please eloborate how wireless is faster and more reliable than wired

more flexible
 
G

GlowingBlueMist

Falco98 said:
I've met a house-builder who would be interested in having houses wired
for
networking pre-completion. I have the tools (or can acquire what i don't
already have), and i have experience with cat5e / cat6 wiring etc (and can
learn what else there is), but i'm not sure what would be a reasonable
price
for a contractor to charge. he asked me yesterday, and i was honestly
unprepared to answer. How much would one charge to do an average-sized
house (i.e. in its skeletal stage, before drywall is up). I'm thinking of
just setting up a hub room, and running wires to all other rooms (maybe 2
to
some rooms, but not overdoing it).
thanks in advance for any ideas; sorry for being slightly OT.
~Mike
I know you have experience but others might not who are reading this.

I can't answer the question about prices but for the home runs, I would
suggest you have them all terminate inside a vented box large enough to hold
a cable modem and possibly a router. If trying to save money the box can be
nothing more than a frame made of 2x4 mounted between the studs with the
sheet rock cut out on one side. Makes it easy to add a shelf or two this
way as well. Purchase the vent first so you can size the box appropriately
for what is going to be installed inside. A vented cover can be had at any
air conditioning supply center.

Either that or have them terminate on a piece of plywood that has one or two
small shelves attached. If using a box have them install an outlet inside
the box so a person can plug in things like a DSL or Cable modem, possibly a
router. I hate to see crappy installations where they have to leave the box
cover a little loose so they can snake an extension cord over to an outlet.

And if you are wiring the house for cable TV you might need to consider
making room for a powered CATV distribution box with an amplifier in the
future.

I like labeling both ends of all cables using those little plastic tags that
come with a built in tye wrap. I had too many problems with self sticking
labels falling off cables when working in IT at a company.

Double check the building code in your area as some of them are now
requiring Cat5 be run in conduit, usually plastic but adds time and cost to
the project. Those localities claim they are allowing for future replacing
of the Cat5 with fiber optic cable or what ever else becomes needed in the
future.

If the builder is willing have them use cat6 to allow for the higher
connection speeds like gigabyte links rather than just 10/100, which are now
available from some routers.
 
S

spodosaurus

Martin said:
Aren't most people just using wireless these days?

Martin

Gigabit is so much better than wireless there's no comparison. The only
thing you'd want wireless for, if you have the option of a gigabit wired
house, is for a laptop, and this can be added on later. Go wired
(especially if you have a file server or backup server...backups over
wireless suck donkey balls).

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
 
S

spodosaurus

jaster said:
Except for the wire into the house it doesn't make much sense to waste
money on a wired network if if you're wiring for cable tv. For the price
of wiring the house you can get a wireless network, even if the the wired
NIC is free. Today's wireless is faster than wired,

LOL

ummm

no, not at all, not even when you're right next to the access point.
Time to update your tech experience.



--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
 
J

jaster

I meant to write unless the op is already wiring for cable even so I'd go
wireless. My bud is completely wireless, 2 of his girls have pcs in their
rooms, the youngest share a Mac in the living room, his wife's in their
bedroom and he uses a laptop which ever room he's in but usually his den.
Please eloborate how wireless is faster and more reliable than wired

For you, I didn't say more reliable but the last time I checked 108G/54G
was faster than 1G/100m/10m.
 
D

DevilsPGD

In message <[email protected]> jaster
Except for the wire into the house it doesn't make much sense to waste
money on a wired network if if you're wiring for cable tv.

The labour to pull two or three cables is virtually the same as to pull
one, so you may as well wire for ethernet, phone and coax at the same
time if you're going to wire at all.

Obviously the cost of retrofitting a house is higher with wired then
wireless due to labour charges if you can't do the work yourself, but
read on and lets compare the difference.
For the price
of wiring the house you can get a wireless network, even if the the wired
NIC is free.

If you're paying too much, then maybe. We spent approximately
$1.50/jack for the ethernet+coax jacks, vs the $1/jack for just coax.

I bought a 1000' of cat5e for ~$70, it has held up through two houses so
far, plus I've made more then $100 by selling cables from that same box,
so in my case, the actual ethernet cable was free (including the jacks,
plus the network cables and ends to connect the PCs)

However, if you're buying from a contractor, you'll probably expect to
pay $50 for the materials for a reasonable sized house.
Today's wireless is faster than wired,

You just lost all credibility here. Name one gigabit capable wireless
solution which costs less then a wired solution.

Heck, do it for 100Mb/s and I'll give you credit here.

Wiring my house (40+ year old house) cost us:

$10 $2.50*3 ethernet jacks
$50 cables (see math above, it was actually free)
$30 router
$20 labour (I had a cable guy do the work while he was installing cable,
including having him wire the ethernet jacks)
$0 $0*4 network cards (Each and every machine in my house at the time we
did the wiring has ethernet on the motherboard -- This was not a
purchasing decision on any of the machines, so it truly is a freebie)
more flexible
placement than wired and about the same price as wired.

The flexible placement is a bonus. However, you also have to compare
with the annoyance when several people nearby run 802.11b/g networks,
plus crappy cordless phones, and microwaves all interfering. If nothing
else it will knock down your speed.

You'll also find that some houses don't make wireless easy -- I have a
bedroom that simply doesn't receive 2.4GHz or 5.8GHz signals very well.
I have a reasonably decent 5.8GHz cordless phone, it works over a block
outside my house (including a straight line from the base station
through my bedroom outside), but it barely works in my bedroom and drops
calls constantly. From that same bedroom you can't get any 802.11b/g
signal at all (at the maximum legal power levels) from my office, a
centrally located access point gets a stable 5Mb/s from my bedroom, and
a 55Mb/s connection anywhere else in the house. In all cases, closing
the door is required to get poor signal, opening the door is mostly
sufficient to get a reasonable signal.

You also have to consider the investment of time learning to secure your
wireless network, or dealing with the downtime after someone abuses it
and your ISP pulls the plug.
If you add a
media center or laptop to the network you wouldn't need to worry about
location because of the wiring. You could also stick you modem, router,
printer, scan, copiers (attached to a server) to shelves in the basement
out of way.

I sure like having my printer on a self in the basement rather then
having it in my office where I use it. Good plan! And scanner too,
even better, especially since most SOHO-class scanners can't be used
over a network unless you remote control the server.

Oh, and how many of your friends and neighbours do you think have a
server in their basement? -- I have four, but I'd bet you that's a
grand total of four on my entire block.

You can already throw the modem + router in the basement out of the way,
and run either ethernet or wireless from there, so that's a moot point.
However, a wireless router in the basement may not have the range in a
2-3 story house (A lot of multiplexes around here are a basement, two
full stories plus a study/office/small-bedroom on the third level), so
going wireless may actually limit your ability to place the router in an
appropriate location.

Don't get me wrong, I'm wired in every room plus I have two wireless APs
(one for that bedroom, the other for the rest of the house, and you can
roam between them without losing a packet) and I generally like wireless
solutions, my laptop hasn't even been plugged in since the day I last
installed Windows (and then only for the speed -- gigabit ethernet sure
makes restoring ~10GB if data a lot more fun), but wireless isn't
cheaper or more reliable for fixed location PCs, it's simply more
convenient.
 
D

DevilsPGD

In message <[email protected]> Conor
As a rough rule of thumb it works out about £50 per point in the UK for
a cable run from a router to a wallplate. - $80??

That seems high, even if you terminate with a patch panel rather then
just standard ethernet cable ends connected directly into a router.

If it includes labour then it depends on the price of labour, but it
still feels high to me.
 
S

spodosaurus

jaster said:
For you, I didn't say more reliable but the last time I checked 108G/54G
was faster than 1G/100m/10m.

Check again. It's only faster than 10m (and only when the signal
strength is good), and G+ only works when the signal strength is VERY
good, especially if you're using WPA.



--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
 
R

Ralph Wade Phillips

Howdy!

For you, I didn't say more reliable but the last time I checked 108G/54G
was faster than 1G/100m/10m.

Err - Do you maybe mean 108M/54M?

Because, you know, I'd LOVE to find some 108Gigabit wireless
equipment cheap ...

But 802.11g is 54Mbit/sec max. Which a) is just a hair over 50% of
100Mbit, and b) is a shared bandwidth, whereas that 100Mbit is per channel
B)

RwP
 
S

spodosaurus

Ralph said:
Howdy!





Err - Do you maybe mean 108M/54M?

Because, you know, I'd LOVE to find some 108Gigabit wireless
equipment cheap ...

But 802.11g is 54Mbit/sec max. Which a) is just a hair over 50% of
100Mbit, and b) is a shared bandwidth, whereas that 100Mbit is per channel
B)

RwP

Yep, and even then, you will not get full wireless *theoretical* speed
even with only one device (even close to the access point), especially
if you have WPA or WEP turned on. Aren't their quad connect G devices
available, which make for G connections to increase the bandwidth of the
individual devices? Just like with 108, which is a dual connect, not a
'real' 108 connection, you have to have a very good signal to get
anywhere near the theoretical speeds.

Cheers,

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
 
D

dannysdailys

Falco98wrote
I've met a house-builder who would be interested in having house
wired fo
networking pre-completion. I have the tools (or can acquire what don'
already have), and i have experience with cat5e / cat6 wiring et (and ca
learn what else there is), but i'm not sure what would be reasonable pric
for a contractor to charge. he asked me yesterday, and i wa honestl
unprepared to answer. How much would one charge to do a average-size
house (i.e. in its skeletal stage, before drywall is up). I' thinking o
just setting up a hub room, and running wires to all other room (maybe 2 t
some rooms, but not overdoing it)
thanks in advance for any ideas; sorry for being slightly OT
~Mik

I know they mean well, but don't listen to the silly wireles
arguments. It is merely a convience for notebooks. Wireless is ver
low power and spotty at best. Latency is a critical issue wit
wireless and it's quite noticeable. I challenge anyone to take
wired desktop and put it next to a wireless notebook with all it'
security turned on. The difference is quite obvious and quickl
reaches not acceptable the higher speed the connection is. Wired i
also much easier to secure without killing the speed of the system

Now back to your previous question

If all you're actually doing is the rough wiring, you'd be looking a
a pretty similar charge as video houses charge for home theatr
systems. There will be some design work, so that will be extra.
Design work meaning where the system will come together and be se
up. Most systems I've seen are usually set up in the basement wit
the routers and switches nested there. Usually near the breaker bo
and alarm system components. This is so, because you catch the cabl
coming in before meeting the house wiring. Electicians use thin co-a
for the house. You don't want your main signal for the computers o
these lines. Don't use it for your feeds either. Bringing all th
upper level rooms down a common trunk line will help any troubl
shooting. Access to all connections is paramount

Make sure all these wires are checked before the drywall goes up.
Drywall end repairs are very expensive and well, should be

One guy I saw had a complete industrial rack system downstairs wit
blade servers for the house! Wow

On thing you may want to suggest is two outlets per bedroom. Unles
there is a clear built in desk area, this will give furnitur
placement some flexability and home owners will demand it

Yes, I'm a home builder. Hope this helps

Cheers
 
B

BP

Falco98 said:
I've met a house-builder who would be interested in having houses wired
for
networking pre-completion. I have the tools (or can acquire what i don't
already have), and i have experience with cat5e / cat6 wiring etc (and can
learn what else there is), but i'm not sure what would be a reasonable
price
for a contractor to charge. he asked me yesterday, and i was honestly
unprepared to answer. How much would one charge to do an average-sized
house (i.e. in its skeletal stage, before drywall is up). I'm thinking of
just setting up a hub room, and running wires to all other rooms (maybe 2
to
some rooms, but not overdoing it).
thanks in advance for any ideas; sorry for being slightly OT.
~Mike
Hi Mike. I'm a home builder up in Mass.
Around here guys get $300 to $400 to pre-wire a 3200 sq ft, 2-story house.
They run one RG6 and 2 Cat5e cables (one for network, one for phone)from a
central location in the basement (these just dangle in a bunch from the
ceiling) and home run to an outlet box in every bedroom (4-5), office,
kitchen, and family room in locations picked by the builder. This hardly
covers the cost of doing the work, but the idea is that the eventual
customer will want to complete the system at which point you can contract to
make the money back. Your rough wiring is an investment for hopes of future
return. A "loss leader" in marketing terms. The real danger is the fact that
so many homeowners today are tech savvy. They realize that they can crimp
RG45 plugs to the existing wires just as well as you can and don't bother
calling. I see lots of new faces coming around to get in on this work.
Hardly ever see them come around again. Plus the big firms like ADT and
American Alarm package all of that and more into "structured wire" systems
together with security systems and fire alarms and are therefore tough to
compete against. People love all-in-one deals.
 
C

Conor

DevilsPGD said:
In message <[email protected]> Conor


That seems high, even if you terminate with a patch panel rather then
just standard ethernet cable ends connected directly into a router.

If it includes labour then it depends on the price of labour, but it
still feels high to me.
That's because we're in the UK where stuff is expensive. A wallplate
will set you back about $10 so another few $$ for the cable and the
connectors leaves you around $65 for labour. Remember you're drilling
through wooden battons, not just stapling the cable to the skirting.
 
J

jaster

Check again. It's only faster than 10m (and only when the signal strength
is good), and G+ only works when the signal strength is VERY good,
especially if you're using WPA.

Ok mea culpa. I've done the one installation of my friends wireless
system. We had problems with the MA111 NIC but replacing it with Airlink
NIC solved the problem. His network gets really good speed on all PCs
connected to the network and it looks as fast as my 100m wired. His
laptop can remotely print to printers attached to either his wife's
printer or his daughter's.

Yes, scanner in the basement I figured an old machine functioning as
printer server and scanner. You have to go to a scanner anyway where ever
it is so not as a remote scanner.
 

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