Free Muni or other hotspot access from a sailboat??

[Skip Gundlach]

So, the world is migrating to free internet access. Even the NYTimes,
today, has an article on the subject, saying, in effect, "It's not coming,
it's here!" (The first paragraph, in part: "No fewer than 300 cities and
towns around the nation have taken wireless Internet access, or Wi-Fi, to
the people. San Francisco's aim is to make the entire city a hot spot,
Chicago plans to blanket the city with access, and large parts of
Philadelphia are to go wireless soon.")
(http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/06/opinion/06tue3.html?th&emc=th)

Many airports, umpteen hotels, and countless other sources intentionally
offer their bandwidth freely. So, please spare me the moralizations and
legal citations about stealing someone's signal as we address the following
technical challenge:

I'll be on a boat full time. I'll be in range, more or less, of lots of
freely available access - such as San Francisco Bay, for example. I want to
be able to sit in the cabin (less signal due to fiberglass, mast, rigging,
etc.) or on deck, and access *WITHOUT WIRES* the available signal(s) on my
laptop.

Where I am now, there are very marginal signals available from several free
sites. There are also stronger signals available from several subscription
sites. So, I need either my external antenna's configuration utility, or my
internal Windoze Zero Configuration utility to be able to specify to which
of the access points I wish to associate my computer. Because I'll be in
differing locales, I'll not know the SSID or MAC addresses in advance.
Likewise, because I have no control over what's used, I have no assurance
that what I have installed will be the same manufacturer's in the AP. So,
requirements that I have the same mfr. gear, or specify SSID or MAC are out.
Likewise, as subscription sites are likely to have more powerful stations,
or just where I am at the time might have such differences, just having the
gear associate with the strongest signal won't get it either.

Previous attempts to find something I could put up the mast, with some minor
amplification to enable returning the signal, and about an 8.5dBi omni
antenna to hear the signal (omni because at anchor one never knows the
direction we'll face, and it changes all the time, and 8.5 because it's
strong enough without having a totally narrow pattern which would limit what
it saw) have failed miserably.

However, I'm reasonably sure that's just because I haven't looked in the
right places. I have a relatively unlimited amount of 12V available to
power this setup, whether POE or directly wired. If it doesn't come that
way, I can put whatever it is in a NEMA waterproof enclosure, keeping it
safe, with the antenna N-mounted to the box or the mast, putting all that
very high up, assuring good range.

So, who knows what I need to accomplish this? Recall that I want to be able
to have my laptop see the shoreside point, through whatever is up the mast,
and be able to communicate with it, in the same fashion as I'd do if I were
in immediate laptop range. Intermediate steps (such as seeing the SSIDs and
manually entering the one I want after selection from what's available) are
acceptable, but definitely not preferred over WZC or the like's point and
click.

I've entertained, but had defective/faulty/somehow not work
ethernet-connected bridges with the same omni 8.5dBi antenna setup associate
but fail to actually pass data, to a station known good as I can (like now)
communicate over it with my USB external antenna. As both of the Senao
2611CB3 Deluxe units I had behaved in that fashion, I assume this is another
case of manufacturer specific or other limiting circumstances, as I (gasp!)
about wore out the owner's manual, and did every possible change, one at a
time, with no success (other than association and the same signal and link
ratios as found on my USB antenna). So, I've given up on those.

Is there a plug-and-play solution to this technical challenge? Anybody done
the equivalent (something free-standing, some distance away from your
laptop, and a very long distance from the selectable AP you're using)?

Thanks for the assistance. We're getting ready to leave, permanently, and
would surely like to be able to access all the free APs now arising.

--
L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

 

[George]

So, the world is migrating to free internet access. Even the NYTimes,
today, has an article on the subject, saying, in effect, "It's not coming,
it's here!" (The first paragraph, in part: "No fewer than 300 cities and
towns around the nation have taken wireless Internet access, or Wi-Fi, to
the people. San Francisco's aim is to make the entire city a hot spot,
Chicago plans to blanket the city with access, and large parts of
Philadelphia are to go wireless soon.")
(http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/06/opinion/06tue3.html?th&emc=th)

Typical pointless newspaper article. How could they claim "its here"
when most of those cities are in the thinking about it stage?

Many airports, umpteen hotels, and countless other sources intentionally
offer their bandwidth freely. So, please spare me the moralizations and
legal citations about stealing someone's signal as we address the following
technical challenge:

Actually you posted in a public forum so if you are using it without the
owners permission then what would you call it?

I'll be on a boat full time. I'll be in range, more or less, of lots of
freely available access - such as San Francisco Bay, for example. I want to
be able to sit in the cabin (less signal due to fiberglass, mast, rigging,
etc.) or on deck, and access *WITHOUT WIRES* the available signal(s) on my
laptop.

Where I am now, there are very marginal signals available from several free
sites. There are also stronger signals available from several subscription
sites.

So it sounds like you have an answer already.


So, I need either my external antenna's configuration utility, or my

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Thanks so much for the enlightenment and entire disregard for objective.
I'll try to remember your name so I don't waste any more time than this on
you, which doesn't include the very obvious observations which are begging
for view to your comments, left below for the entertainment of archive
readers.

--
L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

 

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.internet.wireless - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:48:32

So, the world is migrating to free internet access. ...

That's a pretty big leap. Time will tell if it spreads, dies, or remains a
niche. The big issue is how to pay for it. Cheap services tend to be, well,
cheap.

I'll be on a boat full time. I'll be in range, more or less, of lots of
freely available access - such as San Francisco Bay, for example. I want to
be able to sit in the cabin (less signal due to fiberglass, mast, rigging,
etc.) or on deck, and access *WITHOUT WIRES* the available signal(s) on my
laptop.

See Wi-Fi on sailboats in the Wi-Fi How To below.

Where I am now, there are very marginal signals available from several free
sites. There are also stronger signals available from several subscription
sites. So, I need either my external antenna's configuration utility, or my
internal Windoze Zero Configuration utility to be able to specify to which
of the access points I wish to associate my computer. Because I'll be in
differing locales, I'll not know the SSID or MAC addresses in advance.
Likewise, because I have no control over what's used, I have no assurance
that what I have installed will be the same manufacturer's in the AP. So,
requirements that I have the same mfr. gear, or specify SSID or MAC are out.

Doesn't really matter in any event.

Likewise, as subscription sites are likely to have more powerful stations,
or just where I am at the time might have such differences, just having the
gear associate with the strongest signal won't get it either.

Not usually how it works -- most software, including Windows, make a
connection from a priority list of profiles.

Previous attempts to find something I could put up the mast, with some minor
amplification to enable returning the signal, and about an 8.5dBi omni
antenna to hear the signal (omni because at anchor one never knows the
direction we'll face, and it changes all the time, and 8.5 because it's
strong enough without having a totally narrow pattern which would limit what
it saw) have failed miserably.

Covered in the Wi-Fi How To.

Is there a plug-and-play solution to this technical challenge? Anybody done
the equivalent (something free-standing, some distance away from your
laptop, and a very long distance from the selectable AP you're using)?

There are companies selling packaged solutions, but they're pretty expensive.

 

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.internet.wireless - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:19:01 -0400,

Thanks so much for the enlightenment and entire disregard for objective.
I'll try to remember your name so I don't waste any more time than this on
you, which doesn't include the very obvious observations which are begging
for view to your comments, left below for the entertainment of archive
readers.

Just a thought: You're more likely to get free help you seek if you get the
chip off your shoulder and exercise more restraint.

 

[tex]

I recommend an oudoor short or long range 2.4 GHZ cpe unit. You can buy
one at this place http://store.totalaccess.net online. They range from
179 to 229 based on how far away you want to reach. Then you can plug
this into DC power system of the boat, and simply add a short range
access point so you can wirelessly get internet anywhere on the boat.

Visit there places for examples:
http://www.wirelessworlds.com

 

[Benedictum]

well said, John.

[POSTED TO alt.internet.wireless - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Tue, 6 Jun 2006
11:19:01 -0400,

Thanks so much for the enlightenment and entire disregard for objective.
I'll try to remember your name so I don't waste any more time than this on
you, which doesn't include the very obvious observations which are begging
for view to your comments, left below for the entertainment of archive
readers.

Just a thought: You're more likely to get free help you seek if you get
the
chip off your shoulder and exercise more restraint.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_How_To>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

 

[SMS]

So, the world is migrating to free internet access. Even the NYTimes,
today, has an article on the subject, saying, in effect, "It's not coming,
it's here!" (The first paragraph, in part: "No fewer than 300 cities and
towns around the nation have taken wireless Internet access, or Wi-Fi, to
the people. San Francisco's aim is to make the entire city a hot spot,

<snip>

I'd try the Buffalo AirStation Turbo G High Power Wireless Ethernet
Converter
(http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=118&categoryid=29)
and one of their high gain omni-directional antennas mounted on the mast
(http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=40&categoryid=8).
You're going to want the shortest distance possible between the Ethernet
converter and the antenna.

With omnidirectional it could be tough. Depending on how much money
you're willing to spend, you might be better off with multiple
directional antennas, connected to multiple Ethernet converters.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

[POSTED TO alt.internet.wireless - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
Just a thought: You're more likely to get free help you seek if you get
the
chip off your shoulder and exercise more restraint.

Hi, John, and group,

Given the absolute avalanche of helpful info, I conclude my original
cautions to be right on target.

The chip on my shoulder comes from being very specific in my requests,
including observing what has *not* worked in the past in order to save
effort of those interested in either the outcome or being part of the
solution, on many prior areas of discussion, only to find them either
totally ignored or blatantly flouted.

As I presume responders here are considerably smarter than the average bear,
that infers either stupidity or more rudeness than Boortz. Most of the
other fora, whether mailing list, web forum, usenet or otherwise grouped
interest areas in which I participate have a considerably higher signal to
noise ratio, along with rather more civility, than I've observed here in the
infrequent times I can access the group.

As I was merely asking for those who may have seen a working example of a
solution, not asking for someone to (take the time to) devise a debugging
exercise, nor any more "free help" than "I've seen XYZ work; here's a link",
I didn't think I was being very opportunistic. I certainly wasn't trolling,
nor attempting to generate other than a "Here's something which I know to
work" response.

I've gotten nearly nothing of the sort, or, responses which ignore my
specifications, in fora which (I assumed - silly of me, of course) addressed
this sort of thing. Interestingly, non-technical fora seem to have been
fairly productive of info and leads.

Ah, well.

The question still stands: how to be able to *wirelessly* connect my
computer to a shoreside AP via some sort of mast-top repeater which can pass
through info - and not have as a requirement that it either be manufacturer
specific, nor manually entered SSID info. And, as specified, I'm willing to
manually enter SSID info once displayed if that's what it takes, but would
prefer a point and click solution similar to WZC or the utility I use with
my current (stationary, not needing height, wired - all of which won't be on
the end result) solution.

By this time, of course, with the preceding deafening silence other than to
take me to task, however, I expect none other than opprobium. Should I be
mistaken, I'll be grateful and surprised. Should I be correct ...

.... Well, it will prove the point.

--
L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Hi, Steven, and Groups,

I'd try the Buffalo AirStation Turbo G High Power Wireless Ethernet
Converter
(http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=118&categoryid=29)
and one of their high gain omni-directional antennas mounted on the mast
(http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=40&categoryid=8).
You're going to want the shortest distance possible between the Ethernet
converter and the antenna.

The solution I tried used a 6" pigtail between the card and the lightning
arrestor/hard mount on the NEMA box, so we have the lossy coax problem
handled.

I've not yet dug into the Buffalo stuff, but prior looks at Buffalo have
them pretty manufacturer specific as to what they'll talk to. Do you know
if they are omni-accepting in this model - and does this act as a repeater
(that is, amplify and send the signal both ways, being transparent to both
ends)?

With omnidirectional it could be tough. Depending on how much money you're
willing to spend, you might be better off with multiple directional
antennas, connected to multiple Ethernet converters.

Heh. I'm trying to avoid that sort of thing. The 8.5dBi omni stick I was
testing, alongside my 6.5 directional desktop USB one, saw the same stations
at the same signal strength, so I think that will do - if I can find
something to attach to it!!

Thanks for your input. I'll have a look at the Buffalo; your knowledge in
the above will be appreciated as well.

--
L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Hi, John, and groups,

(about the wiki stuff)

Covered in the Wi-Fi How To.

I went to the wiki, and found that it addressed wired solutions. I'm trying
to achieve a wireless solution.

I know several ways to skin a cat about using wires, from amplifiers and
mega coax, to ethernet to cards with antennas, to active USB connections,
but all of them have wires running to the computer.

If I give up, I'll likely use an ethernet solution to an amplified bridge
(not huge amplification - just enough to get to shore - so I'm not a
bigmouth overkiller) along with a high (not so high as to have a pancake
pattern - more like a bagel that's been stepped on, not as fat as a donut)
gain omni antenna.

There are companies selling packaged solutions, but they're pretty
expensive.

Any suggestions as to whom and what they are? And, of course, to a tinkerer
who wants to make cantennas, anything in three figures - maybe even in the
high twos! - is expensive. OTOH, communications at sea can run into 5 and 6
figures (I'm not in that league!!), and the failed solution I have beat
myself to death with was over $400.

If I can achieve continuous at-anchor communications, a few hundred bux
isn't a deterrent. Several thousand will have me considering other options,
but to put it in perspective, a HAM or SSB (Single Side Band, aka marine
radiotelephone) modem and software (that's without the radios, of course) to
accomplish the equivalent of 1980s dialup speeds is well into the teen
hundreds of dollars. Of course, the advantage there is that it works in the
middle of the ocean (relatively speaking; one doesn't alway succeed in
connection), and the downside is that it's distinctly not a browser; text
email is all you get on one, and 50k limit on size on another.

Satellite phone comms is another option, giving the advantage of being at
sea as well, but with the same limitations, and accompanied by a high
minutes cost, accompanied by areas of no-coverage; no single provider has it
all. Globalstar runs out of steam in the south Caribbean with very spotty
coverage in the other hemisphere, Iridium doesn't talk to almost anyone in
the Atlantic, etc.

Various cellphone companies with GSM3 phones can give voice if near a cell
tower, internationally it is spotty, but there are many countries which are
included. However, none do internet for free, and not many of them do it at
all, so while voice is possible in some areas, email and other internet
based stuff isn't, and outbound minutes are breathtakingly expensive.

So, you see my dilemma...

Thanks for the help, if you (or anyone) can...

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_How_To>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

--
L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

 

[John Navas]

Hi, John, and groups,

(about the wiki stuff)


I went to the wiki, and found that it addressed wired solutions. I'm trying
to achieve a wireless solution.

You either didn't read carefully enough, or made unwarranted
assumptions. You're going to have to run a power cable up the mast
anyway, so it only makes sense to use it for signal as well, avoiding
the fairly serious problems of a repeater in a location like that. If
you want wireless on the boat, then put a wireless access point at the
lower end of the cable.

Any suggestions as to whom and what they are?

Again, see the Wiki.

 

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.internet.wireless - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
Just a thought: You're more likely to get free help you seek if you get
the
chip off your shoulder and exercise more restraint.

Hi, John, and group,

Given the absolute avalanche of helpful info, I conclude my original
cautions to be right on target.

Given your attitude in this post, I conclude my original assessment of
the chip on your shoulder to be right on target.

The chip on my shoulder comes from being very specific in my requests,
including observing what has *not* worked in the past in order to save
effort of those interested in either the outcome or being part of the
solution, on many prior areas of discussion, only to find them either
totally ignored or blatantly flouted.

My advice was based on what actually works. Perhaps you should rethink
not only your attitude, but also your requirements/expectations.

As I presume responders here are considerably smarter than the average bear,
that infers either stupidity or more rudeness than Boortz. Most of the
other fora, whether mailing list, web forum, usenet or otherwise grouped
interest areas in which I participate have a considerably higher signal to
noise ratio, along with rather more civility, than I've observed here in the
infrequent times I can access the group.

The Wiki is pretty much all signal.

As I was merely asking for those who may have seen a working example of a
solution, not asking for someone to (take the time to) devise a debugging
exercise, nor any more "free help" than "I've seen XYZ work; here's a link",
I didn't think I was being very opportunistic. I certainly wasn't trolling,
nor attempting to generate other than a "Here's something which I know to
work" response.

Again, my advice was based on what actually works.

I've gotten nearly nothing of the sort, or, responses which ignore my
specifications, in fora which (I assumed - silly of me, of course) addressed
this sort of thing. Interestingly, non-technical fora seem to have been
fairly productive of info and leads.

Good luck to you then.

Ah, well.
Indeed.

The question still stands: how to be able to *wirelessly* connect my
computer to a shoreside AP via some sort of mast-top repeater which can pass
through info - and not have as a requirement that it either be manufacturer
specific, nor manually entered SSID info. And, as specified, I'm willing to
manually enter SSID info once displayed if that's what it takes, but would
prefer a point and click solution similar to WZC or the utility I use with
my current (stationary, not needing height, wired - all of which won't be on
the end result) solution.

Your question was actually answered. If you're really serious, take a
more open look at the answer, and ask whatever questions you might have.
If OTOH you're going to continue to assume you know more about this than
we do, and think it's appropriate to reward free help with discourtesy,
then good luck to you -- please don't waste any more of our time, and
don't let the door smack you in the tush on the way out.

By this time, of course, with the preceding deafening silence other than to
take me to task, however, I expect none other than opprobium. Should I be
mistaken, I'll be grateful and surprised. Should I be correct ...

... Well, it will prove the point.

I think you've actually proved my point. I'm frankly not surprised
you're having so much trouble getting an answer.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

hello, again...

Well, I went back and reread all I'd seen. I don't want to seem
contentious, so I'll not cite all the citations listed as solutions which
don't meet the specifications I outlined (yes, I agree that there are many
other ways to skin the cat as long as one doesn't mind being joined by a
wire).

However, one solution wasn't clear, and perhaps it's the one to which you
refer as meeting my specs.

It's the one where there's a bridge (even specifying essentially what I
have, a weatherized, NEMA box mounted, 2611CB3Deluxe [later 2611]) which is
POEd and data-connected to an AP.

Unfortunately, whether it's the nature of the specific beasts, or something
else, a 2611 won't play with another one, whether by crossover or direct
cat5 connection. Worse, in the two supplied me, neither would even act as a
bridge successfully.

As I know you prefer to keep this to the usenet, I can't send you what I
did, step by step (and it's way too long for general discussion, I think),
eliminating all the potential possibilities under the manufacturer's
instructions, one at a time, but the 2611s I have will interrogate, given
the same IP and subnet families, will allow me to select an AP and show it
associated with that AP, but not pass any data.

That makes me not very enthusiastic about pursuing that line.

Later, you refer to putting an AP on the other end of the cat5 for wireless
comms. From that I infer you mean the AP will talk to the laptop, and to
the bridge, which will talk to the shore point. That, in fact, is what was
sold to me - but all located in the NEMA box... Perhaps some other pair
might, but these won't even live together, let alone cooperate, and, as
above, if a hardwired 2611 bridge won't pass data, I'm SOL.

Ideas?

Thanks.


--
L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

 

[kony]

I've gotten nearly nothing of the sort, or, responses which ignore my
specifications, in fora which (I assumed - silly of me, of course) addressed
this sort of thing. Interestingly, non-technical fora seem to have been
fairly productive of info and leads.

You continue trying to "think" you know what to do then
blame the hardware for not doing it, instead of doing what
can be done with the hardware available.

Ah, well.

The question still stands: how to be able to *wirelessly* connect my
computer to a shoreside AP via some sort of mast-top repeater
which can pass
through info - and not have as a requirement that it either be manufacturer
specific, nor manually entered SSID info.

PAY ATTENTION-

You do not need to focus on "manufacturer specific",
anything. That is why there are standards for wifi. Any
open networks that you are allowed to use will connect if
you have a clean enough signal and don't go trying to
outthink things and screw it all up in the process.

You do not need to manually enter a SSID if you are allowed
to use the signal. If you are instead trying to find some
way to hack into networks illegally then no wonder nobody is
going to help you do it.

 

[John Navas]

Well, I went back and reread all I'd seen. I don't want to seem
contentious, so I'll not cite all the citations listed as solutions which
don't meet the specifications I outlined (yes, I agree that there are many
other ways to skin the cat as long as one doesn't mind being joined by a
wire).

However, one solution wasn't clear, and perhaps it's the one to which you
refer as meeting my specs.

It's the one where there's a bridge (even specifying essentially what I
have, a weatherized, NEMA box mounted, 2611CB3Deluxe [later 2611]) which is
POEd and data-connected to an AP.

Unfortunately, whether it's the nature of the specific beasts, or something
else, a 2611 won't play with another one, whether by crossover or direct
cat5 connection. Worse, in the two supplied me, neither would even act as a
bridge successfully.

So, either you've got (1) some cockpit error you haven't figured out, or
(2) you've got some buggy gear that won't do the job. OTOH, the gear
and configuration in the Wiki *will* work.

As I know you prefer to keep this to the usenet, I can't send you what I
did, step by step (and it's way too long for general discussion, I think),

I think I've already seen it.

eliminating all the potential possibilities under the manufacturer's
instructions, one at a time, but the 2611s I have will interrogate, given
the same IP and subnet families, will allow me to select an AP and show it
associated with that AP, but not pass any data.

That makes me not very enthusiastic about pursuing that line.

So cut your losses.

Later, you refer to putting an AP on the other end of the cat5 for wireless
comms. From that I infer you mean the AP will talk to the laptop, and to
the bridge, which will talk to the shore point. That, in fact, is what was
sold to me - but all located in the NEMA box...

NO -- not the same thing!

Perhaps some other pair
might, but these won't even live together, let alone cooperate, and, as
above, if a hardwired 2611 bridge won't pass data, I'm SOL.

Ideas?

Standard gear, configured as described in the Wiki, *will* work.

See <http://i6.tinypic.com/14msa3p.png>.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

This discussion (in a rather different tone) has been going on in other
groups. Here's what I recently replied to one of them:

Howdy...

It appears we're headed down somewhat the same road, though I'm far less
than sufficiently technically motivated to do what you're proposing...

That was what I'd wanted to do in the first place, really. My original,
failed, setup, was an amplified bridge with omni stick antenna, crossover
connected to an amplified AP with a rubber duck.

Supposedly (according to the vendor), after first configuring them with my
laptop individually, via URL IP address, connecting them with a crossover
cable would be all I'd need. The AP with the duck would give me and probably
the entire anchorage access to the bridge points, which would see the shore
points.

The vendor never tested it out, and the only way it ever worked at all was
in a system that was invisible, seeing only the strongest signal,
unaddressable, and therefore not configurable, and likewise subject to
landing on an unknown spot that neither I nor anyone else could communicate
with. Since that time, it's never worked, and generated only IP conflicts.
Neither of the units will even perform as a wired bridge, as it will
associate, but not pass data on a known good site (the one I use on the
boat).

by the way, here's the plan for my own boat as far as this goes ... i
say plan because it isn't installed on the boat, but it IS installed in
my truck, that's the vehicle i used to develop this prototype system.

i'm going to use an old laptop running debian linux as my router on the
boat. from the laptop i'm running a number of cables/connectors
including - a regular telephone socket near where shore power comes on
the boat so that i can hook up a telephone line, an ethernet cable that
goes through a hub to both a wireless access point and an RJ-45
connector for boat hard wire connections, and a strong pcmcia wireless
card that is wired to an the same kind of antenna setup you are working
on up in the mast. the other pcmcia slot has a verizon wireless
broadband card in it which is easilly configured in linux because it's
just seen as a usb device with native drivers. finally i want to have
a handheld/tripod mount yagi that i can put in the cockpit or mount to
a pole temporarilly and aim for when i really need a signal for a short
period of time and just "have to have it", i'll have to actually
unscrew the connector on the laptop pcmcia and swap it to the cable for
the yagi to do that.

once situated in port that gives me options of either using dialup if i
have access to a phone line, ethernet if there is some kind of wired
ethernet connection, talking over wireless and the mast mounted
antennas, or over verizon broadband if it's available (in the states).
the laptop acts as a router for the network and anyone within range
(depending on acl's and access point configuration) can route traffic
across it through the wireless access point on the boat and get online.

the great thing about this solution is that it's very adaptable, can be
installed using all the big/fat hardware you need to use for it, etc,
but your end user laptop doesn't have any cables attached to it and
still gets a great signal.

i've gone a little beyond this by wiring up the laptop so that i can
boot it and shut it down remotely, but this is basically what is going
to end up on the boat.

I've left all the above in case I've missed something. You're essentially
setting up a server on an old laptop? And that's doing the routing, allowing
you to use the AP it's serving as the gateway to your laptop which is the
"real" computer?

As I'm trying to minimize space and clutter belowdecks, my objective was to
put something in a NEMA box up the mast, with the appropriate antennas, and
not have to do anything else other than power it up.

Your earlier stuff led me to look at some gear that I've not yet had the
opportunity to dig into; first glance wasn't conclusive as to whether it
would do the job specified.

Interestingly, over in a couple of techie newsgroups, there were assertions
that all I needed was a bridge and an AP connected together. However, off
those groups, I was in extensive comms with a guy who designs municipal and
other large-scale wifi applications.

He did a lot of work on the project, and said that all I really needed to
make my current gear do the job was a router in between. He suggested the
router be at the nav or similar, but the AP and Bridge be topsides with the
antennae, connected with ethernets to the router. If desired, I could cable
to the router, or plug in a VOIP box (the router looking like a broadband
feed to the VOIP at that point) or other ethernet device (similar to the
$1800 unit shown on another site which URL doesn't immediately spring to
mind, but an advance over the previously only wired version of shipside wifi
they'd had earlier; this new unit had 250ma AP and 250ma Bridge with router
between them, N and one other antenna mount - perhaps an N also, don't
recall, and a cat5 RJ45 out - all in one box designed to mount mast-top or
similar), but that project was stillborn with the failure of the Senao units
to even act as a Bridge - accompanied by massive IP conflict messages.

So, I presume it's do-able, maybe even achievable by my own playing around,
but now it's getting in the way of casting off, and I either need a
plug-and-play proven item, or to shelve it for a while. Logic and my
minimal understanding of how things work network-wise tells me that while
the AP and Bridge alone is a lovely idea, I need a router to give out
addresses and translate. If I thought I wouldn't encounter what I have
already experienced, I'd try again. But I've been through such hell with
this, each time and attempt taking many hours, I'm gunshy.

Prior correspondents, thinking they'd solved it with standard, off-the-shelf
gear, have found on review that it only worked in a proprietary environment,
where specific maker and model gear were involved, with specific SSID and
MAC, known in advance, were specified. That won't work out in the "real
world" that I'll be facing...

So, I look forward to additional commentary. I'm not ready for the
complexity you've described - three items, one of which was down on the nav
(as suggested by the muni developer), was pushing my limits as it was, but
if I got a VOIP feed rather than the softphone (software enabling of my
laptop to be a telephone with headset or mike and speakers), I was willing
to hide it and use an outlet for the POTS device I'd hook to it. However,
see above for the disappointment :{/)

Thanks for any additional insights...


--
L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Hi, John, and thanks for the continued dialogue. Comments inline:

So, either you've got (1) some cockpit error you haven't figured out, or
(2) you've got some buggy gear that won't do the job. OTOH, the gear
and configuration in the Wiki *will* work.

The testing I did was to go from computer to XO cable to 2611 with antenna.
It's entirely possible I've got buggy gear. Lord knows I've about worn out
the CD with the manual on it. That there are two units which fail in the
same fashion (on multiple computers) is either frustrating or confirming of
the problem in them.

(snip)

So cut your losses.

:{)) Heh. Have done, and recently sent the 1/2 ream of documentation to
Discovercard to reinstitute the refund and eventual return of the
product(s).

NO -- not the same thing!

This is where, following your miniURL, I guess I'm missing the point.

How is locating the AP and Bridge - connected by ethernet - in the same
place different from locating them in different places, connected in the
same fashion other than a longer C5?

Standard gear, configured as described in the Wiki, *will* work.

See <http://i6.tinypic.com/14msa3p.png>.

As above. Of course, with all the bruiting of their superiority (the
various commentary from other failed attempts to use them by others and the
failure of the reps to follow up - all in these usenet groups - enhancing),
the failure of the 2611s was a bitter pill to swallow, as I was convinced
that they *should* work - even if it took inserting a router in between.
That the recommended gear in the wiki was also a senao makes me nervous to
start over. That just walking into the local bigbox joint doesn't seem to
produce readily available (and returnable) alternatives further discourages
me.

But I'm still here, and still listening...


--
L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

 

[John Navas]

Interestingly, over in a couple of techie newsgroups, there were assertions
that all I needed was a bridge and an AP connected together.

*Client* bridge wired to a wireless access point.

However, off
those groups, I was in extensive comms with a guy who designs municipal and
other large-scale wifi applications.

Should I be impressed? Is his work one of the many that don't work?

He did a lot of work on the project,

It doesn't take a lot of work.

and said that all I really needed to
make my current gear do the job was a router in between. [SNIP]

He's in the wrong line of work.

So, I presume it's do-able, maybe even achievable by my own playing around,
but now it's getting in the way of casting off, and I either need a
plug-and-play proven item, or to shelve it for a while. Logic and my
minimal understanding of how things work network-wise tells me that while
the AP and Bridge alone is a lovely idea, I need a router to give out
addresses and translate.

That would be wrong.

If I thought I wouldn't encounter what I have
already experienced, I'd try again. But I've been through such hell with
this, each time and attempt taking many hours, I'm gunshy.

Fair enough -- bon voyage.

Prior correspondents, thinking they'd solved it with standard, off-the-shelf
gear, have found on review that it only worked in a proprietary environment,
where specific maker and model gear were involved, with specific SSID and
MAC, known in advance, were specified. That won't work out in the "real
world" that I'll be facing...

What I'm recommending *does* work in the real world.

So, I look forward to additional commentary. ...

Not me. Wasted too much time on this already. Have tried to tell you
how to do it but you won't listen. So at this point I'll only wish you
bon voyage.

 

[John Navas]

Hi, John, and thanks for the continued dialogue. Comments inline:

This is where, following your miniURL, I guess I'm missing the point.

How is locating the AP and Bridge - connected by ethernet - in the same
place different from locating them in different places, connected in the
same fashion other than a longer C5?

A repeater is *not* the same as a client bridge wired to an access point
-- way more difficult to get working: compatibility issues, interference
issues, on and on. OTOH, my way *does* work. If you insist on doing it
some other way, then you're on your own (no offense intended).

As above. Of course, with all the bruiting of their superiority (the
various commentary from other failed attempts to use them by others and the
failure of the reps to follow up - all in these usenet groups - enhancing),
the failure of the 2611s was a bitter pill to swallow, as I was convinced
that they *should* work - even if it took inserting a router in between.

No, no, no!

That the recommended gear in the wiki was also a senao makes me nervous to
start over.

Any good client bridge will work. The Senao is just one that's known to
work very well.

That just walking into the local bigbox joint doesn't seem to
produce readily available (and returnable) alternatives further discourages
me.

Your needs aren't what they are addressing.

But I'm still here, and still listening...

Fair enough. Take it step by step -- prototype the whole thing on the
deck *before* doing anything major. If you do it right, following my
instructions, it *will* work.