AP access hardware

[Skip Gundlach]

So, I'm a starving college student, living in an AP rich environment.

However, my laptop antenna, including amps like the Hawking 54G desktop,
can't get out of my concrete cellar apartment.

Several folks have offered to share their connection on wifi, but I can't
see them (from downstairs). I can't afford my own ISP broadband (or any
other, for that matter) subscription, relying on the school or my neighbors
for access (thus the gmail address). Having to go out is a nuisance, but I
can't see them at home, so that's currently the solution. Makes
study/homework and research a nuisance at best.

Is there a way (what equipment needed??) to set up a piece, or pieces, of
gear so that my laptop antenna could see said equipment, and said equipment
could see those APs, such that I could select from them, and wifi surf, as I
can when I'm out of the basement? I'm assuming I'd need some omni
antenna(s?) and amplification for distance to overcome my bunker.

Assume for the moment that I can set this up somewhere with power available
but it needs to stand alone, otherwise. No connection to my or the other
computers or my benefactors' hardware.

Can it be done? Is anyone now doing it? What gear do I need?

Thanks.

Skip

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

PS you can also reach me at skip at engr dot uga.edu

 

[kony]

So, I'm a starving college student, living in an AP rich environment.

However, my laptop antenna, including amps like the Hawking 54G desktop,
can't get out of my concrete cellar apartment.

Several folks have offered to share their connection on wifi, but I can't
see them (from downstairs). I can't afford my own ISP broadband (or any
other, for that matter) subscription, relying on the school or my neighbors
for access (thus the gmail address). Having to go out is a nuisance, but I
can't see them at home, so that's currently the solution. Makes
study/homework and research a nuisance at best.

Is there a way (what equipment needed??) to set up a piece, or pieces, of
gear so that my laptop antenna could see said equipment, and said equipment
could see those APs, such that I could select from them, and wifi surf, as I
can when I'm out of the basement? I'm assuming I'd need some omni
antenna(s?) and amplification for distance to overcome my bunker.

Assume for the moment that I can set this up somewhere with power available
but it needs to stand alone, otherwise. No connection to my or the other
computers or my benefactors' hardware.

Can it be done? Is anyone now doing it? What gear do I need?

You need a "repeater", it plugs into an AC jack (wall-wart
usually), picks up the wifi signal and as the name suggests,
repeats it. A router "might" be able to function as one,
but it'd need be listed in the specs as it's not manditory
feature. Many access points can do it too but again, check
the specs (features) for any product not marketed
specifically as a repeater.

It may have better pickup than your notebook when sitting
right beside the notebook, but ideally it would be placed
strategically closer to the wifi source.

If your repeater has trouble picking up the signal too, then
you'd look for a better antenna for it.

 

[Chuck F.]

.... snip ...

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

Can't help with your problem, however the sig is amusing. You
should be aware that all sigs should be preceded by a sig marker,
with is a line with exactly "-- " (note final blank) on it.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>

 

[Mike Schumann]

If you are in the same building with your buddy, you might be able to solve
the problem using a powerline carrier repeater solution. I believe Netgear
sells a kit solve your exact problem.

Mike Schumann

 

[Skip Gundlach]

If you are in the same building with your buddy, you might be able to
solve the problem using a powerline carrier repeater solution. I believe
Netgear sells a kit solve your exact problem.

Mike Schumann

Nope - no connection, RFI/Carrier included possible. Gotta be airwaves...

Actually, there's several volunteers - which is why I need a dhcp type
solution, and can select among them.

Back when I was involved in the security alarm installation field, that
(carrier signal on 110VAC) was a popular means of getting around tough
situations in a lousy environment for wiring - but I don't have that luxury.

Gots to be standalone, other than the power supply (though I suppose I could
rig some sort of UPS-type power - it can't take much, can it? A car battery
could power a 12V unit a long time, right?)...

Thanks

Skip

--
--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[kony]

Actually, there's several volunteers - which is why I need a dhcp type
solution, and can select among them.

DHCP is not a problem, providing their (router, usually) is
set up to provide it as is usually the case.

Back when I was involved in the security alarm installation field, that
(carrier signal on 110VAC) was a popular means of getting around tough
situations in a lousy environment for wiring - but I don't have that luxury.

Gots to be standalone, other than the power supply (though I suppose I could
rig some sort of UPS-type power - it can't take much, can it? A car battery
could power a 12V unit a long time, right?)...

A car battery would probably be overkill, shouldn't be
charged inside, and you'd be better off with a deep-cycle
style battery since the last thing you'll need is high
instantaneous current from it. Roughly guesstimating it'd
take 12V and 200mA, all you need is enough battery reserve
to last you until your neighbors' routers go down from the
power outtage... it'll do you little good to have 200 hours
runtime remaining if everything else is dead. Typical 7AH
sealed lead-acid cell like used in many UPS should be
plenty.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

A car battery would probably be overkill, shouldn't be
charged inside, and you'd be better off with a deep-cycle
style battery since the last thing you'll need is high
instantaneous current from it. Roughly guesstimating it'd
take 12V and 200mA, all you need is enough battery reserve
to last you until your neighbors' routers go down from the
power outtage... it'll do you little good to have 200 hours
runtime remaining if everything else is dead. Typical 7AH
sealed lead-acid cell like used in many UPS should be
plenty.

Right.

Now all I have to do is find the equipment which will let me do it.
Powering was a total aside. I need the hardware to accomplish the trick...

Thus:

"So, I'm a starving college student, living in an AP rich environment.

"However, my laptop antenna, including amps like the Hawking 54G desktop,
can't get out of my concrete cellar apartment.

"Several folks have offered to share their connection on wifi, but I can't
see them (from downstairs). I can't afford my own ISP broadband (or any
other, for that matter) subscription, relying on the school or my neighbors
for access (thus the gmail address - though you can also reach me at skip at
engr dot uga.edu). Having to go out is a nuisance, but I can't see them at
home, so that's currently the solution. Makes study/homework and research a
nuisance at best.

"Is there a way (what equipment needed??) to set up a piece, or pieces, of
gear so that my laptop antenna could see said equipment, and said equipment
could see those APs, such that I could select from them, and wifi surf, as I
can when I'm out of the basement? I'm assuming I'd need some omni
antenna(s?) and amplification for distance to overcome my bunker.

"Assume for the moment that I can set this up somewhere with power available
but it needs to stand alone, otherwise. No connection to my or the other
computers or my benefactors' hardware.

"Can it be done? Is anyone now doing it? What gear do I need?"


L8R

Skip


--
The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

You need a "repeater", it plugs into an AC jack (wall-wart
usually), picks up the wifi signal and as the name suggests,
repeats it. A router "might" be able to function as one,
but it'd need be listed in the specs as it's not manditory
feature. Many access points can do it too but again, check
the specs (features) for any product not marketed
specifically as a repeater.

Got any url suggestions?

It may have better pickup than your notebook when sitting
right beside the notebook, but ideally it would be placed
strategically closer to the wifi source.

If your repeater has trouble picking up the signal too, then
you'd look for a better antenna for it.

So, assume a high gain antenna omni - such as a Hyperlink 20" stick 8.5dBi
(http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/hg2409u.php) or the like, assuming a
pigtail can be done to mate with the repeater, therefore (presumed) easily
able to see the various APs. Will that (say it's high up - though anything
is higher than the bunker/basement apartment!) also transmit to me
effectively, or do I need some other antenna to be able to see the repeater,
too (the other one has a pretty flat donut pattern [see the bottom of the
url above], and, assume it's way above me)?

Thanks.

Skip
--

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[kony]

Right.

Now all I have to do is find the equipment which will let me do it.
Powering was a total aside. I need the hardware to accomplish the trick...

Thus:

"So, I'm a starving college student, living in an AP rich environment.

"However, my laptop antenna, including amps like the Hawking 54G desktop,
can't get out of my concrete cellar apartment.

I already posted the solution- a "repeater", with a better
antenna added if it can't be located strategically to cover
both areas. If even that is not enough, your next option is
either a 2nd repeater, or a bridge situated remotely nearer
the hotspot and a wired lead (ethernet cable) down to the
basement where there is an access point to regain the
wireless(ness).

 

[kony]

Got any url suggestions?

I don't know which particular model works *best* at any
particular price-point, nor if *best* will even matter...
most major consumer-wifi oriented brands have at least one
offering. Pick on price if nothing else, whatever you see a
deal on since hours and hours of research is hardly worth $6
return shipping cost to a vendor if it doesn't work.

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=repeater+802.11g&price2=100.00

So, assume a high gain antenna omni -

You'd probably find an omni to be worse, it's not like you
need the omni coverage locally, rather than focused on the
distant hotspot... then again, I don't know where these
spots are nor where the repeater will be located relative to
you. IF you were situated such that the repeater could be
somewhere inbetween you and the hotspot an omni may be best
but if not, if the repeater ends up having to be on your
premises, directional may be better... we have no idea if
you have a window or roof access or whatever, too many
variables to consider.

such as a Hyperlink 20" stick 8.5dBi
(http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/hg2409u.php) or the like, assuming a
pigtail can be done to mate with the repeater, therefore (presumed) easily
able to see the various APs. Will that (say it's high up - though anything
is higher than the bunker/basement apartment!) also transmit to me
effectively, or do I need some other antenna to be able to see the repeater,
too (the other one has a pretty flat donut pattern [see the bottom of the
url above], and, assume it's way above me)?

Depends on distance, I would expect your notebook or desktop
system to be the weakest link, so they "might" need better
antennas... better to just get the repeater first and see
how well it does then contemplate an antenna, but yes your
general concept seems right.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

You need a wireless repeater (or wireless client, if you can run a
wire to it from your laptop). I've had good luck with the Linksys
WAP54G in this kind of situation, but note that it only repeats the
signal from a Linksys WRT54G or WAP54G.

Well, that *is* part of the problem, I expect, as - while I have not
interrogated them - I suspect the volunteers didn't do a group buy.

I need my laptop to be able to select from those available, and I need
something (a repeater, it seems?) to see my laptop and allow me to select
between the other APs. I also need to do it with no physical connection to
my new gear from my laptop.

Buffalo has the same problem in their "solution" - which for me isn't a
solution at all...

Other repeater solutions should be carefully selected to work with the
AP or WiFi router you want to repeat, as most of them have similar
restrictions, and you'll get a lot of finger pointing if you try to
call two tech support teams and ask what's wrong...

I have inquiries out to several manufacturer/distributor types about their
purported repeaters (and sometimes + amps), with no replies to date. Of
course, that's been my experience in general - web inquiries, or email
inquiries, get little attention, and then, largely useless. You'd think
they didn't want to sell their gear...

Skip


--
The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Check around, if you have a number of volunteers to select from, I'd
be real surprised if not a one of them had a WRT54G, it's probably the
best selling wireless router in the known universe.

You aren't going to be able to find any vendors (*) who will support
the use of their repeater with another vendor's AP, there are just too
many things that can go wrong, over which they have no control.

(*) Well, D-Link will probably promise you everything in their
pre-sales literature, but they are well known for lying or
mis-implementing features. _Don't_ get me started...

So, the answer to my question is, basically, "no"?

That is, there's no solution to act as an amplifier both ways to and from
other APs and my laptop?

While I can - if I'm in range - effortlessly choose from several APs with a
connected ("wired") antenna, there's no wireless solution? That my computer
can figure it out, but there's nothing which can amplify or transmit, choose
your terminology, the signals to make them go further, without a wire?

Skip


--

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

I already posted the solution- a "repeater", with a better
antenna added if it can't be located strategically to cover
both areas. If even that is not enough, your next option is
either a 2nd repeater, or a bridge situated remotely nearer
the hotspot and a wired lead (ethernet cable) down to the
basement where there is an access point to regain the
wireless(ness).

Do you agree or disagree with William P.N. Smith, further down this list? He
asserts no repeater will do it...

Thanks...

Skip
--

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

 

[kony]

Do you agree or disagree with William P.N. Smith, further down this list? He
asserts no repeater will do it...

Where did he assert that? Seems like all he asserted was
that a certain model needs to work with other of same brand.

Since you have no control over the other equipment
generating the hotspots, and presuming these are friendly
parties and you have permission to use their wifi, you might
ask them what their equipment is.

Generally the problems are more likely trying to bridge, not
run at access point. Your time is best spent just buying
one and trying it.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Where did he assert that? Seems like all he asserted was
that a certain model needs to work with other of same brand.

Actually, my question (all along) was about the ability to select from the
available, visible, APs, as I can do, _if I'm in range_, (select which of
several I want - or, as circumstance may require, switch from one to
another), from my laptop with or without the Hawking (directional, USB,
desktop) external antenna. He asserts the repeaters require compatibility,
which is outside the scope of what I'm trying to accomplish. Thus, the
answer is - at least from his side - apparently, "no," as his assertion* is
that that's how it is with all.

(* "You aren't going to be able to find any vendors who will support
the use of their repeater with another vendor's AP, there are just too
many things that can go wrong, over which they have no control.")

Since you have no control over the other equipment
generating the hotspots, and presuming these are friendly
parties and you have permission to use their wifi, you might
ask them what their equipment is.

Generally the problems are more likely trying to bridge, not
run at access point. Your time is best spent just buying
one and trying it.

As final installation would require some (notable, more than simply plugging
into an outlet, given the location) effort, and to adequately test same
would require installation at the same point, I'm looking for something more
assured than "buy one and test it". Meanwhile, being the weekend, there are
no responses to the several manufacturer queries sent off.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure I understand your comment regarding
problems/bridge/access point. Can (well, "would") you expand?

Thanks.

Skip, still searching for a wifi solution allowing selection between
available APs, repeater or not

--

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[kony]

Actually, my question (all along) was about the ability to select from the
available, visible, APs, as I can do, _if I'm in range_, (select which of
several I want - or, as circumstance may require, switch from one to
another), from my laptop with or without the Hawking (directional, USB,
desktop) external antenna. He asserts the repeaters require compatibility,
which is outside the scope of what I'm trying to accomplish. Thus, the
answer is - at least from his side - apparently, "no," as his assertion* is
that that's how it is with all.

(* "You aren't going to be able to find any vendors who will support
the use of their repeater with another vendor's AP, there are just too
many things that can go wrong, over which they have no control.")

Of course they won't "support" it, but that doesn't mean
it's necessarily not going to work.

You're not trying to use their repeater with another
vendor's AP either. you're trying to use a repeater with
another router?

As final installation ...

Who said anything about "final instalation"?

would require some (notable, more than simply plugging
into an outlet, given the location) effort,

Like what? That's really all there is to it, you plug it
into the outlet and try it.

and to adequately test same
would require installation at the same point, I'm looking for something more
assured than "buy one and test it". Meanwhile, being the weekend, there are
no responses to the several manufacturer queries sent off.

Buy one and test it.

Even if you find something that theoretically has supposed
"support", that's no assurance that plugging it in and
trying it will result in signal strenth from the hotspot to
it, or it to you.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure I understand your comment regarding
problems/bridge/access point. Can (well, "would") you expand?

You need to buy a repeater and try it, not fixate on
problems more common with a different device or device
function (a bridge).

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Hi, and thanks for the response. Comments and more questions inline
below...

Oh, you want to change the AP that the repeater is connecting to on
the fly, that's slightly different...

The Linksys WAP54G when acting as a repeater, selects the repeater
based on it's MAC address, so you could change the AP you are
repeating by changing the MAC address. However, when configuring
these things, I frequently find I have to reboot or reset them, which
sounds like it may not work for you.

It may, but I'm into simplicity. Plus, this installation won't be readily
accessible, so reboot and reset may be a bit complicated, too (I have in
mind a secure location but one which takes some [notable] effort to visit).
A power-down and up again will be easy, but hands-on definitely won't.
Think, for example, at the top of a major utility pole like you'd see a
barnyard light on, with a secure switch below. EZ on, EZ off, but out come
the climbers and the belt if I want to fiddle with it.

You might do something with back-to-back boxes in client-mode and AP
mode, then the one that's in client mode can do a discovery of
available APs.

Hm. For example, a unit which can be either a bridge or an AP (they seem
common, based on a quickie search), using two of them? The bridge unit
discovers the neighborhood APs? (That part's pretty simple - if it weren't
for the wire connection challenge, I could run a cat5 crossover to a bridge
and be done with it!) Would that be a point-to-point, or, since I'm trying
to be able to not only see, but select from, several, a point-to-multipoint
configuration?

By back-to-back, do you mean connected with a crossover, relying on the AP
to talk to me, and the bridge to the other APs? The AP passes through like
a repeater, so instead of my wiring to the bridge, the AP sends that to me
via wifi? (That is, if wired, the ethernet NIC in my computer talks to the
bridge over ethernet. If wireless, the wireless LAN talks to the AP over
wifi, that wifi link taking the place of the long part of ethernet - which
is then connected to a short part of ethernet between the AP and the Bridge,
completing the connection between my computer and the Bridge?) Then, I
control the bridge (setup, selection of AP to associate with, etc.) through
the AP? Please pardon my density, here, as it's not my field (as must
already be evident!).

If that's correct, I'd assume I'd need a relatively smaller antenna for the
AP to talk to me (I'm relatively close), and a larger (both cases in dBi,
not just size) antenna for the bridge to talk to the other APs. I'd assume
the Bridge would see my AP as one of the available (so I'd not choose it, of
course)? Presumably, unless I were to encrypt the AP, others could also see
it? Or would I have to associate only my machine to make it work? Would
you see any conflicts in IP, antenna, or other issues if they were the same
units, but configured to one AP and one Bridge?

Why can't you leave it nailed to a particular AP?

Well, I might, in the end. But what if the instance case graduates? Moves?
Newer, stronger, signal (which I'd prefer) arrives/appears? Something else
making it unavailable or those, I'd want to be able to change.

Thanks for the engagement and assists in thinking this through.

Skip


--
The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Hi, again, and thanks for keeping up with my cluelessness

Then how about getting your own broadband service? It's gonna be a
lot more reliable (and probably cheaper to set up) than a couple of
APs up a pole. Weatherproofing them and preventing overheating in the
summer are going to be challenges.

Ehhh... A NEMA box takes care of the weather, and mostly the overheating.
I haven't a clue about my own broadband service (or, do you mean an ISP
running to my place?) - but if it's a one-time cost similar, I'm all ears
(or antennae, if you prefer).

[I wrote]

By back-to-back, do you mean connected with a crossover, relying on the AP
to talk to me, and the bridge to the other APs?

Yes, that's the ticket. Configuring and maintaining it is left as an
exercise for the student.

See minor comment immediately below, where I'll continue this part about the
exercise:

Why can't you put it in aproximately the middle? Once you start
talking about external antennas the price rises rapidly...

Well, perhaps. The other part about that was interference, as all the boxes
I've seen already have one or two antennae on them. I'd have to feed
something to the outside, in any case, for best reach, so I'd be in for a
pigtail. Would there be antenna conflict?

And, on to the exercise left to the student: This is where I come unstuck.
I have the luxury of a couple of pretty good AP/Bridge (switchable, not
concurrent) units, 200mW each, which should give me pretty good range. When
I set up one as AP (on channel 1, say) and the other as bridge (on channel
11, say, both to make sure I'm as far away from the typical channel 6 as
possible), using different IPs for each, including the most off-the-wall
ones I can imagine (so there can't possibly be any conflict with anything
else around - see below), so long as they are in the same family and subset
(e.g. 192.168.1.x and 255.255.255.0, but instead something like 15.0.0.x),
*and* my NIC which I used to configure them, *and* my wireless NIC are in
the same family and subset (different end numbers, of course, for all, to
avoid IP conflict - which, by the way, the properties confirm as "no
conflict"), when I plug the two together (AP+Bridge with crossover), they do
just fine. I've also gone into the "advanced" section and set up the extras
(start with the 192 set, and add the oddballs), to no avail.

However, that's as far as it gets. The wireless NIC sees the AP, loud and
clear - and nothing else. As soon as I put the wireless into dhcp, the
computer immediately responds with IP conflict messages, and there's no
connectivity. Without my ethernet NIC connected to either of them, they
can't be interrogated (web interface). With the wireless NIC in static IP,
it won't surf. The only thing it sees is the AP.

I've about worn out the CD reading the manual and going through iterations
of potential setups where there might not be an IP conflict. If I keep the
crossover cable connected (with my ethernet NIC) to the bridge, it acts like
a large external antenna, and I see the available points and can select
between them. But it's got this #$%^&(_)(&* wire on it.

So, there I am, the worst of all worlds. I can't cut the cord, I can't
interrogate wirelessly, I can't select from APs, and I can't get out in
static mode. In DHCP, all I can see is the AP - and conflict messages
ensue, to boot, though, as I've been typing this and mucking around with
these two, for whatever reason, the IP conflict has gone away, despite my
going to dhcp. OTOH, I can't get the AP to communicate, any more, either -
it shows "limited or no connectivity". That is, my wifi NIC can't talk to
the AP - it can *see* it, but it can't get an address.

So, there I am, stuck.

Ideas?

Thanks.

Skip

--
The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.