M
Mark D. VandenBeg
I'm just curious how MSFT is going to adjust the spinrate on this situation,
or if they will merely tray it for later...
or if they will merely tray it for later...
B
Bernie
Chad said:
I don't think Vista will ship for any other reason than money. But I
hope that the money it will ship for is the long term big money and not
just the short term initial sales followed by a slump and a justifiably
tarnished reputation leading to even less take up when they finally do
get it right. If I were a shareholder that is what I would be pushing for.
C
Colin Barnhorst
A classic example of your second paragraph that has been discussed in this
ng is the XP volsnap.sys problem when multibooting XP and Vista. MS
determined that the fix involved substantial rewriting of XP and has decided
not to do it.
ng is the XP volsnap.sys problem when multibooting XP and Vista. MS
determined that the fix involved substantial rewriting of XP and has decided
not to do it.
C
Colin Barnhorst
btw, I have found out since that the meaning of the bug levels and the
current bug level number varies by team according to the nature of the
product, the team's "bugload" (if there is such a word), available
resources, preponderance of user feedback, etc.
This must be the reason why MS folks don't publically discuss things like
bug levels. It would be way too easy to overgeneralize on a single team's
bug level. I know of one team where a level 5 bug is a three-alarm fire.
Does that team being at level 5 mean that only catastropic bugs in Vista
will now get fixed? Of course not. That is only one team with a heavy
bugload.
current bug level number varies by team according to the nature of the
product, the team's "bugload" (if there is such a word), available
resources, preponderance of user feedback, etc.
This must be the reason why MS folks don't publically discuss things like
bug levels. It would be way too easy to overgeneralize on a single team's
bug level. I know of one team where a level 5 bug is a three-alarm fire.
Does that team being at level 5 mean that only catastropic bugs in Vista
will now get fixed? Of course not. That is only one team with a heavy
bugload.
C
Colin Barnhorst
Well, of course they want optical performance.
Mark D. VandenBeg said:
C
Colin Barnhorst
Remember, the ones who hung in there at least long enough to look for the
newsgroups and ask the questions might only be the tip of the iceberg. I
wonder what the bail out rate was after the first unsuccessful attempt?
newsgroups and ask the questions might only be the tip of the iceberg. I
wonder what the bail out rate was after the first unsuccessful attempt?
M
Mark D. VandenBeg
It's just like you to laser in on a topic!
Colin Barnhorst said:
M
Mark D. VandenBeg
Colin Barnhorst said:
Ahhhha... Excellent point. But without a polling survey, how many of those
were due to (for whatever reason) a bad DVD?
C
Colin Barnhorst
Just remaining focused.
Mark D. VandenBeg said:
C
Colin Barnhorst
That's my point. My bet is a lot more than who made the greater effort to
look for an answer here.
look for an answer here.
M
Mark D. VandenBeg
My fault. I should have been more specific. To rephrase:
How many of those that gave up had problems that were specifically and only
related to having an unusable DVD after downloading and burning? And how
many were for other reasons, such as SATA drivers, or trying to install over
Norton AV, etc...
Yes, of course the actual numbers will be exponentially larger than those
who continued by coming here or elsewhere for help. But what the ratio of
bad DVD's as compared to the whole of reasons for a failed install, is a
number that will never truly be known unless you surveyed 2 million people
who probably don't really know why they could not install Vista anyway.
Still, in the back of my mind is that MSFT focused on the burning process.
So, if the problem has a solution without understanding the root cause of
the problem, is the actual problem truly "solved?"
How many of those that gave up had problems that were specifically and only
related to having an unusable DVD after downloading and burning? And how
many were for other reasons, such as SATA drivers, or trying to install over
Norton AV, etc...
Yes, of course the actual numbers will be exponentially larger than those
who continued by coming here or elsewhere for help. But what the ratio of
bad DVD's as compared to the whole of reasons for a failed install, is a
number that will never truly be known unless you surveyed 2 million people
who probably don't really know why they could not install Vista anyway.
Still, in the back of my mind is that MSFT focused on the burning process.
So, if the problem has a solution without understanding the root cause of
the problem, is the actual problem truly "solved?"
J
Jimmy Brush
Still, in the back of my mind is that MSFT focused on the burning process.
If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it actually make a
sound?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
- JB
Vista Support FAQ
http://www.jimmah.com/vista/
If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it actually make a
sound?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
- JB
Vista Support FAQ
http://www.jimmah.com/vista/
B
Bernie
That's just a corruption of an old Jewish joke Jimmy. If a husband says
something and his wife isn't around to hear it, is he still wrong?
something and his wife isn't around to hear it, is he still wrong?
J
Jimmy Brush
C
Colin Barnhorst
I like the definition of chutzpah: Someone who kills his parents and throws
himself on the mercy of the court as an orphan.
himself on the mercy of the court as an orphan.
J
jonah
Amazing, AOL & ME <shudders with horror>
Bet thats a bundle of laughs for you.
I have a fair amount of small business clients still persevering with
Win 98SE and one still on 95 with a dial up connection.
Its a living I suppose.
Jonah
C
Chad Harris
The tree can fall hard in that forest because I think it said in the 32nd
Federalist paper that "There is a Yenta behind every bush and couch."
--Hamilton, Jay, Madison and the Marx Brothers
Federalist paper that "There is a Yenta behind every bush and couch."
--Hamilton, Jay, Madison and the Marx Brothers
C
Chad Harris
I wish, I wish, Mark I had the way to find out the situation with what
media are being used with which players and software. I think that most
people have the idea to burn slowly. That data is really hard to come by.
I've looked for it. It would be great if a very extensive study with enough
numbers to make it statistical could be done on a gamut of popular DVD
writers, a gamut of popular media, with burning speed and a gamut of
software all studied systematically.
Colin's "tip of the iceberg/drop out point" is very valid:
"Remember, the ones who hung in there at least long enough to look for the
newsgroups and ask the questions might only be the tip of the iceberg. I
wonder what the bail out rate was after the first unsuccessful attempt?"
I can burn a Vista DVD Iso nearly every time and get through setup but I
have had some problems on one build with the download that redownloading and
reburning remedied.
I also believe a small percent of people know what a CRC or MD5 tool is, and
a smaller percent that that actually deploy it. The burning software has a
checker as well, although I can't say how accurate those are.
What I haven't been able to do is sustain the burned material on the DVD
weeks down the road for reasons I can't pin down. I'm relucatant to add a
Sony firmware update to the newest Sony internal writer, because their
strong advice had been "if it ain''t broke, don't fix it by applying our
Firmware."
CH
CH
There probably are a few studies but they all are probably limited.
I do put some stock in this one favoring DVD + over DVD- at least
theoretically.
Article Why DVD+R(W) is superior to DVD-R(W)
Date June 2003
CH Michael Spath
http://www.cdfreaks.com/print/article/113
media are being used with which players and software. I think that most
people have the idea to burn slowly. That data is really hard to come by.
I've looked for it. It would be great if a very extensive study with enough
numbers to make it statistical could be done on a gamut of popular DVD
writers, a gamut of popular media, with burning speed and a gamut of
software all studied systematically.
Colin's "tip of the iceberg/drop out point" is very valid:
"Remember, the ones who hung in there at least long enough to look for the
newsgroups and ask the questions might only be the tip of the iceberg. I
wonder what the bail out rate was after the first unsuccessful attempt?"
I can burn a Vista DVD Iso nearly every time and get through setup but I
have had some problems on one build with the download that redownloading and
reburning remedied.
I also believe a small percent of people know what a CRC or MD5 tool is, and
a smaller percent that that actually deploy it. The burning software has a
checker as well, although I can't say how accurate those are.
What I haven't been able to do is sustain the burned material on the DVD
weeks down the road for reasons I can't pin down. I'm relucatant to add a
Sony firmware update to the newest Sony internal writer, because their
strong advice had been "if it ain''t broke, don't fix it by applying our
Firmware."
CH
Mark D. VandenBeg said:
CH
There probably are a few studies but they all are probably limited.
I do put some stock in this one favoring DVD + over DVD- at least
theoretically.
Article Why DVD+R(W) is superior to DVD-R(W)
Date June 2003
CH Michael Spath
http://www.cdfreaks.com/print/article/113
C
Chad Harris
If the root of the solution is not known, than of course the problem isn't
actually solved because it may recur, and if the user were to try a
statistical number under the same conditions, it might recur then x percent
of the time.
I don't know how to determine what media is good for what writer. Yes they
have lists and charts on their sites, but if you take a large company like
Sony, there are very few brands listed compared with what is available in a
store like Fry''s. and 50% of what Sony lists aren't even in stores that
I've seen so you'd have to order them on the web.
Also the cost varies dramatically. I've seen the trend that minus DVDs are
significantly cheaper than plus. You can spend quite a lot of money per DVD
if you go into the higher price range, but how do you know that you get what
you pay for in that venue?
I can get good burns better than 95% of the time with Fuji DVDs on a Sony
internal writer for a Vista ISO, but can't make it "stay" on the DVD a week
or two later if I want to test Win RE's StR (Startup Repair Tool)--which I
like to test frequently.
We all know MSFT for cost purposes cannot use expensive media to burn in
masses for mail orders or retail sales for Vista, but every MSFT Vista DVD
I've gotten sent to me after attending some meeting is good for the duration
(at least in months--who knows years out)?
I know MSFT uses a service to get their DVDs burned, but I don't know what
they're using as media, and it's probably a commercial brand a lot of people
haven't heard of. I also don't know what they use to mass produce the
burned DVDs.
CH
actually solved because it may recur, and if the user were to try a
statistical number under the same conditions, it might recur then x percent
of the time.
I don't know how to determine what media is good for what writer. Yes they
have lists and charts on their sites, but if you take a large company like
Sony, there are very few brands listed compared with what is available in a
store like Fry''s. and 50% of what Sony lists aren't even in stores that
I've seen so you'd have to order them on the web.
Also the cost varies dramatically. I've seen the trend that minus DVDs are
significantly cheaper than plus. You can spend quite a lot of money per DVD
if you go into the higher price range, but how do you know that you get what
you pay for in that venue?
I can get good burns better than 95% of the time with Fuji DVDs on a Sony
internal writer for a Vista ISO, but can't make it "stay" on the DVD a week
or two later if I want to test Win RE's StR (Startup Repair Tool)--which I
like to test frequently.
We all know MSFT for cost purposes cannot use expensive media to burn in
masses for mail orders or retail sales for Vista, but every MSFT Vista DVD
I've gotten sent to me after attending some meeting is good for the duration
(at least in months--who knows years out)?
I know MSFT uses a service to get their DVDs burned, but I don't know what
they're using as media, and it's probably a commercial brand a lot of people
haven't heard of. I also don't know what they use to mass produce the
burned DVDs.
CH
R
Raven Mill
Chad Harris said:
Hmmm...many years ago, (96-97) there was a website that, if you checked the
imprinted number on the "spool circle" of a cd, you could do a search on the
database and gleen the manufacturer. It was due to, at that time, the lack
of packaging that most industrial burnable CDs had and the amount they
costed along with the number of "coasters" you ended up with back then. I
had one of the original Sony CD burners then. I can't remember where the
site was, or who ran it, but if anyone wants to spend some time searching
for it...
It was a nice site, though now, due to CDs being dirt cheap and plenty
compatible, it's rather obsolete, but it would be interesting to see if it's
still around...