FIXMBR redux

[William B. Lurie]

Reply inline:

The XP Pro CD I have is not a Restore CD....it is a genuine
Install CD. I know, because I installed from it. However,
"backing up all data" is the reason for all of these
machinations. I have a few dozen 'folders' full of files and
data which are easy as pie (or pi) to copy to a CD, but
that's just the tip of the iceberg. What would be utterly
impossible to 'back up' is all of the software that's
contained in all that is in "Program Files" and the Registry.

I still say that, reading its literature, Drive Image was
designed to do exactly what I'm trying to do. But it doesn't.
And Power Quest, now Symantec, is almost impossible to get
questions to, much less get answers from. I'm living with
an Error Message in Norton System Works because, to repair
it, just to fully uninstall it, would take reading through
all the reference documents they had me link to...and print
out....about 25 pages worth.......if I were to do it. The cure
is worse than the disease. Sounds a little like trying to get
rid of my Recovery Console.

I will experiment with the cloned hard drive, and see if the
procedures you have kindly detailed will get it 'repaired'.
I doubt that I would ever accept the risks and uncertainties
of doing it on my sacred system. The cloned drive may or may
not be amenable to responding to that procedure. We shall see.
And thank you for your inputs.

 

[*Vanguard*]

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) said in

I need to understand what you've stated as I have Drive Image 2002 as
well.

If Drive Image 2002 doesn't include the contents of the MBR, would
that not make image restoration useless as it would not produce a
bootable drive? Since I've used Drive Image 2002 through several
betas wherein I deleted my system partition and restored the image
created with Drive Image and had a bootable system upon completion of
the restore process, I'd like to know how that is possible. In fact,
as a part of the DI 2002 restore routine, you must first delete the
partition.

As an example, at one time I used to use BootMagic to multiboot between
Windows 98 and Windows NT4 (later replaced with a fresh install of
Windows 2000). When I restored the disk image saved onto CD-R on a new
hard drive, I had problems. Don't remember if it was because the MBR
had not yet been written or if because it was the standard bootstrap
code. In any case, the replacement MBR bootstrap code from BootMagic
was not there. However, as part of using BootMagic, it lets you create
a recovery floppy where it stores the old MBR (which wasn't really
useful). What you do to recover is use FDISK to make the partition
active that contains the install of BootMagic (which requires
installation on a non-NTFS partition) where you can run it to again
replace the standard MBR bootstrap program with BootMagic's. If I had
use mbrutil to save the MBR along with my image fileset then I could've
booted using a DOS-bootable floppy and ran mbrutil from there to restore
a saved copy of the MBR that previously contained the BootMagic
bootstrap program. Because BootMagic installs only in a non-NTFS
partition (mine was FAT32 for the Windows 98 partition), and because I
could use FDISK to make that partition active to run BootMagic from
there to rewrite the MBR bootstrap code, or by using BootMagic's rescue
diskette, I was able to get the MBR back the way it was. I don't
remember if I had to run FDISK /MBR at that time but suspect that I did
to start the boot process (to get the FAT32 partition booted).

FDISK /MBR or FIXMBR usually work okay or well enough to get you started
along the path to recovery, but it can cause problems. If you are
infected with a boot sector virus, it may move the partition tables
within the MBR area. FDISK /MBR and FIXMBR only know how to overwrite
the 460-byte bootstrap code area of the MBR and where to expect the
partition table to begin, so if the partition table got moved then the
standard bootstrap code won't know where to find the partition table.
So using FDISK /MBR or FIXMBR is not always a fix for what ails ya.

But there is also a danger in backing up the MBR. This backup probably
includes all of sector 0 instead of just the first 460 bytes for the
bootstrap code. That means the backup includes a copy of your partition
table at that time. If you later resize, move, or otherwise change your
partitions, the copy saved in your backup copy of the MBR won't be
correct anymore. So you restoring the MBR will overwrite the partition
table which will probably result in none of your partitions being
accessible anymore. The mbrutil from Powerquest appears to save all of
sector 0 in an MBR backup (and obviously all of sector 0 in a track 0
backup). The only option I see is to let it restore ALL of sector 0 (or
track 0). So you really don't want to just do an MBR backup when you
create disk (er, partition) images but you want to maintain a separate
MBR backup floppy where you save the MBR anytime you have something
usurp the bootstrap code OR change your partition table.

I think the MBRtool lets you write only to the bootstrap code area of
the MBR but I also think it only writes the standard bootstrap code and
not the bootstrap code from your backup copy of the MBR. Admittedly I
am not familiar with MBRtool (got it but haven't used it yet) so one of
its many options or features described at
http://www.diydatarecovery.nl/~tkuurstra/MBRtool_manual.htm might
actually let you restore just the first 460 bytes of the MBR in order to
restore just the original bootstrap program. I just use Powerquest's
mbrutil anytime something overwrites the bootstrap code (like a disk
overlay manager, Goback, multiboot managers, security products, etc.) or
when the partition table changes (resize, move, delete, add, or
whatever). Since you can filename for the backup output, you can save
multiple copies and give a descriptive name to clue you in as to what
was different about the MBR and why you backed it up, or put it into its
own folder and add a descriptive .txt file.

 

[Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)]

You said it was supplied by Emachines, even it wasn't a restore CD, even if
it was identical to a retail CD, if you didn't have to activate this on your
system when you installed or installed and formatted, it's different from
the retail CD. That would make it an OEM and likely locked to that system
in some way.

I can only go back to what I told you in the first place a long time ago,
I've never tried this scenario. It's one thing to image a drive to say,
backup a partition, or have two hard drives installed on the system, install
the OS to one and then image it to the other and quite another issue to
install XP, create an image and then place that image on a hard drive the
setup never saw in the first place.

I'm not saying it can't be done or hasn't been done but from everything
you've told me, it appears XP's anti-piracy scheme is the issue. There may
be others who have done this, if they have, then I'm wrong and it may have
something to do with a peculiarity with your setup, an issue with the image
in the first place or something else of which I have no idea.

 

[*Vanguard*]

William B. Lurie said in news:[email protected]:

Thank you, Sharon. You speak the truth, of course, and I'll simplify
your thinking by making it clear that when I've spoken about what
I do with the 'cloned' hard drive, I mean that I physically shut
the system down, and pull out the Master, and insert the Clone
exactly in its place, electrically and physically. There should
be no conflict there. BTW, D-I 7 is, I believe, the only version
for XP. The D-I 2002/6 version is expressly not for XP.

Yes, the drive onto which I Recover the Image is Active and Primary.
It is brand new and not even partitioned.

As an aside, and not pertinent here, I have another completely
separate drive with WIN ME on it, and I am able, through a
simple manipulation of the BIOS, to boot to HDD-0 (these XP
alternates) or to HDD-1 (the ME), should I care to go that route.

I think the next step will be for you, or Michael, to instruct me how
to deactivate the RC altogether, after which I will first test my
Master Drive (and pray that it will still work), and then repeat
the D-I Image creation followed by trying to create the clone from it.
W B L

Haven't had time to read everything (and still don't) but wanted to
inject a couple of points.

One,

A disk image is a set of files used to restore to the same or other
partition or drive. The disk image fileset is not itself usable to boot
from the partition where that fileset was stored. A *cloned* drive is
completely different. DriveImage will do both. You can have it create
a fileset containing a logical description of the physical definition of
a partition, or you can have it clone a drive (via "Copy Drives"
function).

A cloned disk can be swapped in for the source drive to look and behave
just like the source drive as long as you connect it the same way (as
you mention by moving it to the same port in the same physical scan
order). To a degree, a cloned drive is something like a one-shot
mirrored drive: the target disk is an exact copy of the source disk but
only at the time the target disk got cloned. A disk image fileset
cannot be used by itself to bring up a system but instead requires
running the imaging program to restore that image.

Two,

As far as the boot menu asking whether to select Windows XP or Recovery
Console, that has nothing to do with the boot sequence for starting the
operating system. The BIOS loads the bootstrap program from the first
460 bytes of sector 0 (MBR) of the first physically scanned hard disk
which then runs and loads the boot sector of the primary partition
marked as active which then starts the load of the operating system
which then reads (in the case of NT-based Windows) boot.ini to see which
parallel installed operating system to load, Windows XP or the Recovery
Console. The OS has already loaded its initial loader program and is
running and the boot process (from BIOS and hardware) is over.

You could uninstall the Recovery Console if you don't want to get the
menu to choose. Or you could shorten the menu timer to expire quicker.
Or you could edit boot.ini to remove the entry defining where to find
the Recovery Console interface (but that won't eliminate the Recovery
Console's files).

 

[Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)]

That's a different situation than what I was describing as BootMagic lives
on it's own small partition and, as I recall, rewrites the MBR on the OS
boot partition and I can see where this could create an issue with Drive
Image. Even if that's not exactly the case, I've run into issues of
restoring images when I've also used Boot Magic and ended up having to use
either the Drive Image emergency disks or the BootMagic emergency disks in
order to set things right again.

 

[Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)]

If you create an image using Drive Image and you wipe the current boot
partition of your hard drive and restore that previously created image, that
drive will boot even if you've deleted the previous partition so the image
should, as far as I can tell, be usable to clone a drive. Drive Image
creates a sector by sector copy of the drive it is imaging and should be an
exact duplicate of the imaged drive, hence a clone.

The error message that Bill is receiving is consistent with XP's anti-piracy
scheme though it may not be the issue at all. Nonetheless, my understanding
of Drive Image is apparently different from yours.

If you delete the partition on the drive you originally imaged, the MBR is
gone, hence, if that drive is bootable upon restoring the image you created
of that drive, it must be restoring the MBR when it restores the image.

 

[=?iso-8859-1?B?uyBtcnRlZSCr?=]

If what you are trying to do is make an image of your system and restore it to a different drive may I reccomend TrueImage7 from www.acronis.com. It works and for only $49.99.

--
Just my 2¢ worth
Jeff
__________in response to__________
| The XP Pro CD I have is not a Restore CD....it is a genuine
| Install CD. I know, because I installed from it. However,
| "backing up all data" is the reason for all of these
| machinations. I have a few dozen 'folders' full of files and
| data which are easy as pie (or pi) to copy to a CD, but
| that's just the tip of the iceberg. What would be utterly
| impossible to 'back up' is all of the software that's
| contained in all that is in "Program Files" and the Registry.
|
| I still say that, reading its literature, Drive Image was
| designed to do exactly what I'm trying to do. But it doesn't.
| And Power Quest, now Symantec, is almost impossible to get
| questions to, much less get answers from. I'm living with
| an Error Message in Norton System Works because, to repair
| it, just to fully uninstall it, would take reading through
| all the reference documents they had me link to...and print
| out....about 25 pages worth.......if I were to do it. The cure
| is worse than the disease. Sounds a little like trying to get
| rid of my Recovery Console.
|
| I will experiment with the cloned hard drive, and see if the
| procedures you have kindly detailed will get it 'repaired'.
| I doubt that I would ever accept the risks and uncertainties
| of doing it on my sacred system. The cloned drive may or may
| not be amenable to responding to that procedure. We shall see.
| And thank you for your inputs.
|
| --
| William B. Lurie

 

[Geoffw]

If the OS actually exists on the HD you could re install over the top to get a working version, I would then try the fixmbr and fixboot, reason I suggest this is that I had a problem with a non working clone that basically gave "no ntldr" errors everytime I tried to boot. I was able to switch between Os's because I ahd a few OS installled on different drives.

Point was that when I performed fixmbr and fixboot all the problems went away.

I am not positive but I thought that fixmbr was also included on the win98 boot disk - someone may clarify this - used it to fix a lilo boot loader problem a while back.

Good luck

Geoff

Tried that, Geoff. Cannot get to Recovery Console. I put in the XP-CD,
rebooted. It gave me choice of going to XP or to RC. I chose RC, and
instead of finding it on the hard drive (where it was on the drive I did
the Image of), or on the CD, it stopped with message "file missing
or corrupt system32/hal.dll ......Please install a copy of that file."
Of course, it didn't tell me how to install it, even assuming I can find
in on the CD, where, if I find it, I expect it to be a ".dl_" file and not .dll..
Bill L.

Geoffw wrote:

boot from your cd and go to recovery console from there, I
assume it recognises the new clone as the OS when you search
for it via RC

use fixmbr and fixboot

I had a similar problem and this has resolved them for me

good luck

Geoff


I think this leads back to my discussions with, and
advice from, Michael Solomon a while back.......

Since 'solving' the problems of creating a drive image
of my master hard drive with Drive Image 7, and creating
a clone of that drive with its PowerQuest Recovery
Environment software, I've been living is a fool's
paradise. I discovered this when I went to create the
monthly Drive Image yesterday, and create the clone on
a newly purchased hard drive.

I've been living with my Master drive booting to a
choice between normal start-up and Recovery Console,
a minor annoyance because after a ten-second countdown
it goes to normal boot, automatically. No problem there.

I believe that the main part of the problem is now that
the new exact clone does not have Master Boot Record
correct, because the 'Normal Boot' path leads to the
choices of Safe Mode or Normal etcetera, and no choice
gets to anything other than a repeat of that set of
choices. If I select Recovery Console, I get a short
DOS-type message saying that file 'xxxxx.dll' is missing,
and to reload it somehow from somewhere. I suspect that
more than one '.dll' file will be in the list of what it
needs. I tried selecting Recovery Console, hoping that I
could somehow do a FIXMBR there, but I can't get to RC.

Incidentally, in running Drive Image, I've repeated the
whole image-and-recreate process, with and without the
'keep the MBR' option, with no apparent difference in
results. I've tried to solve the problem without going to
you experts, but what I've considered all logical paths
haven't solved it.

William B. Lurie

 

[William B. Lurie]

William B. Lurie said in


Haven't had time to read everything (and still don't) but wanted to
inject a couple of points.

One,

A disk image is a set of files used to restore to the same or other
partition or drive. The disk image fileset is not itself usable to boot
from the partition where that fileset was stored. A *cloned* drive is
completely different. DriveImage will do both. You can have it create
a fileset containing a logical description of the physical definition of
a partition, or you can have it clone a drive (via "Copy Drives"
function).

A cloned disk can be swapped in for the source drive to look and behave
just like the source drive as long as you connect it the same way (as
you mention by moving it to the same port in the same physical scan
order). To a degree, a cloned drive is something like a one-shot
mirrored drive: the target disk is an exact copy of the source disk but
only at the time the target disk got cloned. A disk image fileset
cannot be used by itself to bring up a system but instead requires
running the imaging program to restore that image.

Two,

As far as the boot menu asking whether to select Windows XP or Recovery
Console, that has nothing to do with the boot sequence for starting the
operating system. The BIOS loads the bootstrap program from the first
460 bytes of sector 0 (MBR) of the first physically scanned hard disk
which then runs and loads the boot sector of the primary partition
marked as active which then starts the load of the operating system
which then reads (in the case of NT-based Windows) boot.ini to see which
parallel installed operating system to load, Windows XP or the Recovery
Console. The OS has already loaded its initial loader program and is
running and the boot process (from BIOS and hardware) is over.

You could uninstall the Recovery Console if you don't want to get the
menu to choose. Or you could shorten the menu timer to expire quicker.
Or you could edit boot.ini to remove the entry defining where to find
the Recovery Console interface (but that won't eliminate the Recovery
Console's files).

Thank you very much, Vang, for taking the time to enumerate
those facts explicitly. They make sense and I agree but am
unable to do what I'd like to try. For one thing, I'd like
to take Recovery Console out of the picture, and not by
reducing its delay time to zero, but just remove that option.
If any of the MVPs told me how to do that, I missed it.

For another thing, your interpretations of the *image* of a
drive, and a *copy* of a drive, make sense but are different
from what some MVPs led me to believe. Of course Drive Image 7
creates a file called an *image* which is a string of code
which its Restore software will convert back to something
like the original hard drive's code, but which itself is not
executable code. To me a *copy* of every bit and byte of
the code on the original source, an identical copy,
indistinguishable from the original, should be called a copy.
I was led to believe that that is not what I want.

It would be nice if it were possible to communicate with the
perpetrators of Drive Image 7 (PowerQuest, now Symantec) but
they have buried their tech support so deep that it just
isn't practical to try to get them to sort it out. And
the record speaks for itself with Microsoft. Well, I don't
know where to go from here. And thanks again.

 

[Sharon F]

For one thing, I'd like
to take Recovery Console out of the picture, and not by
reducing its delay time to zero, but just remove that option.
If any of the MVPs told me how to do that, I missed it.

It was at the end of my other post to you:

"To remove the recovery console, delete the cmdcons folder from the root
(usually C and edit the boot.ini file to remove the reference to it."

You can also delete the cmldr file that is added by the recovery console
installation - also in the root folder.

William, the term image is used interchangeably for a cloned hard drive and
for an image set that is restored using the imaging software. Usually which
type of image is being discussed is noted very early in a discussion so
that both parties are on the same page. This is why I made the effort to
define the distinction at the beginning of my previous message.

Vanguard picked up on what I was trying to say and did a great job
expanding on the two different meanings. Thanks, Vanguard!

 

[William B. Lurie]

It was at the end of my other post to you:

"To remove the recovery console, delete the cmdcons folder from the root
(usually C and edit the boot.ini file to remove the reference to it."

You can also delete the cmldr file that is added by the recovery console
installation - also in the root folder.

William, the term image is used interchangeably for a cloned hard drive and
for an image set that is restored using the imaging software. Usually which
type of image is being discussed is noted very early in a discussion so
that both parties are on the same page. This is why I made the effort to
define the distinction at the beginning of my previous message.

Vanguard picked up on what I was trying to say and did a great job
expanding on the two different meanings. Thanks, Vanguard!

Oh, you are at least 105% correct, Sharon. On all counts. And I
did see your note and saved the message but didn't follow up right
away (or yet) because I wasn't sure I could find all the items.
I'm in a ticklish position: I willingly perform any operations
on the clones while keeping the Master off the system, out of
harm's way, but I'm reluctant to do anything to the Master which
might cause me to have *no* working system. My question, obviously,
is, if I do what you show in quotes above, am I taking any chance at all
that I'm endangering my Master system?
Bill Lurie

 

[Sharon F]

Oh, you are at least 105% correct, Sharon. On all counts. And I
did see your note and saved the message but didn't follow up right
away (or yet) because I wasn't sure I could find all the items.
I'm in a ticklish position: I willingly perform any operations
on the clones while keeping the Master off the system, out of
harm's way, but I'm reluctant to do anything to the Master which
might cause me to have *no* working system. My question, obviously,
is, if I do what you show in quotes above, am I taking any chance at all
that I'm endangering my Master system?

No chances that I know of. I had the Recovery Console installed too with a
3 second time out. Eventually I removed it too. Those were the steps I used
(including the deletion of the cmldr file) and my setup didn't keel over.

The same directions can be found in this document:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=307654

 

[William B. Lurie]

It was at the end of my other post to you:

"To remove the recovery console, delete the cmdcons folder from the root
(usually C and edit the boot.ini file to remove the reference to it."

You can also delete the cmldr file that is added by the recovery console
installation - also in the root folder.

William, the term image is used interchangeably for a cloned hard drive and
for an image set that is restored using the imaging software. Usually which
type of image is being discussed is noted very early in a discussion so
that both parties are on the same page. This is why I made the effort to
define the distinction at the beginning of my previous message.

Vanguard picked up on what I was trying to say and did a great job
expanding on the two different meanings. Thanks, Vanguard!

Sharon, it's indeed unfortunate that the software designer,
in PQ, chose to leave the words 'copy' and 'image' mixed
up. What they call a "drive image" is indeed a bunch of code
which their own recovery program is supposed to convert to
a clone or exact copy or duplicate of the original. Neither
they nore anybody else has made it clear to tired, muddled old
me, why that two-step capability is necessary or even desirable.

So I went back to where I was a month ago, when I tried making
what PowerQuest describes as a "copy". I installed my Slave
drive as Master and formatted it anew, as Active and Primary,
and empty. I then jumpered it as Slave, put it in Slave
position, put my Master on as Master, and used Drive Image 7.0
to "Copy One Drive to Another This copes the contents of
your Drive directly to another drive". Actually, I copied only
the first (Master) partition of my Master Drive to the Slave.

I used Partition Magic to verify that the Slave Drive contained
very close to the same number of bytes as the Master OS. I then
shut down, jumpered the Slave Drive as a Single Drive, put it in
Master position on the cable, no other drive present, and booted
up. It got to where I was when I did this same thing a month
ago, so at least it's reproducible. It booted through BIOS, to
the place where I could select XP Pro or Recovery Console, I
picked XP, and got the black Windows logo screen, and then after
the usual wait, the light blue Windows logo screen, which should
say "loading your personal settings"........and there it hangs.
So Windows copied nicely, and all my data and files and programs
and applications copied nicely, but it doesn't get to the "Loading
your personal settings" place. Those words are missing from the
light blue screen, and that's where I was when one of the MVPs
(who shall remain nameless) convinced me that I should not use
the "Drive Copy" path, that I really wanted the Image.

Well, he couldn't get me past that road block, in the XP
boot-up procedure, Sharon, maybe you can? Or maybe I need the other
piece of software that somebody just suggested here.

By the way, I searched for cmdcons folder on C:\ and can't find
it. Yes, I told it to seek hidden files. I did find it in boot.ini,
however.

 

[William B. Lurie]

No chances that I know of. I had the Recovery Console installed too with a
3 second time out. Eventually I removed it too. Those were the steps I used
(including the deletion of the cmldr file) and my setup didn't keel over.

The same directions can be found in this document:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=307654

Okay, I put the clone back in Slave spot so that I could search and
make the deletions you recommended. I found boot.ini and removed
the line referring to CMDCONS. That's the first good news. The first
bad news is that Search couldn't find CMDCONS itself, nor could
it find CMLDR.

The second good news is that I ran that drive again in Master or
Single position (alone, as Master) and this time it (of course)
didn't do the RC choice,ecause it is gone from boot.ini ....

But the second bad news is that it proceeds then to the black
Windows XP logo screen, and then to the light blue screen where
it should load my personal settings......and still hangs there.
So I'll hope you can tell me how to get past that road block.
Bill Lurie

 

[=?iso-8859-1?B?uyBtcnRlZSCr?=]

"C:\cmdcons" is where mine is found. Just open Explorer.

--
Just my 2¢ worth
Jeff
__________in response to__________
» snip «|
| By the way, I searched for cmdcons folder on C:\ and can't find
| it. Yes, I told it to seek hidden files. I did find it in boot.ini,
| however.
|
| --
| William B. Lurie

 

[William B. Lurie]

"C:\cmdcons" is where mine is found. Just open Explorer.

Thanks, Jeff. I looked for cmdcons and \cmdcons all over
c: ..... several ways. Windows Explorer; Search;
and even went to run 'cmd' and went to c:\ root
directory and I couldn't find it. And of course, I did all
the *show hidden files and folders* and cleared the Hide
Protected operating system files.

Of course, if I can't find those files and folders, then
I don't have to delete them.

 

[Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)]

Well, I'm not sure, should I be insulted?

William, I did the best I could for you under the circumstances and I did
initially try to direct you to the hardware forum where I thought there
might be users who had done what you were trying to do.

Second, when pressed, I tried to help but cautioned I had not done precisely
what you were attempting.

Third, my understanding of a "drive copy" versus an "image" is exactly the
opposite of what has been presented in that the copy is simply a copy of
what is on the drive while an image is an exact sector by sector duplicate.

You've now had problems attempting to do what you are trying to do with
either method, using the same product. Perhaps you are using the wrong
product, (That's rhetorical, I don't want to be accused of encouraging you
to use a different product only to have it fail as well and get blamed for
that too<G>) perhaps it's the nature of your setup or perhaps it's the
manner in which you are using the product; I don't know.

I've had some pretty vile things said to me and about me on these boards,
usually from people that I wasn't even trying to help and often from people
who contributed nothing else to a particular thread. That was easy to
ignore. But, when I've gone out of my way to help someone who from the very
outset I specifically told I had not done this procedure in the manner it
was being done yet gave whatever benefit of my experience I could when
pressed by that someone and he has the temerity seemingly to offer up an
implied dig in my direction, I can't help but find that a bit insulting.

I wasn't arguing with you last night with regard to my interpretation of the
issue. I cannot be sure XP's anti-piracy scheme is the source of the
problem but I said and reiterate the error message is consistent with that
being the issue. Kirk to Spock, "Nonsense, no ship that size could generate
energy enough to hold a ship the size of the Enterprise." Spock to Kirk,
"We are being held, Captain," and all the logic in the world and
pronouncements about imaging software doesn't change the fact, you did
indeed receive such a message and it is consistent with that type of issue
and I had this concern and expressed it from the very beginning. I don't
expect to be complimented, especially when I haven't resolved the issue but
I don't appreciate left handed comments when I've gone out of my way to help
someone and have spent as much time on the issue as I have with you.

Symantec has a bulletin board on USENET, it's simply listed as
symantec.support. If you can't find it in your newsreader on a USENET
server to which you might have access, you might find at Google under
groups. Perhaps, you will be able to find someone there who has tried
precisely what you are attempting and will know what is wrong. The issue I
sited, may only be a symptom, perhaps someone who is doing this can diagnose
the cause and give you the help you need.

 

[William B. Lurie]

Michael, please take no umbrage. Realize that it is frustrating,
and the whole system of narrow-band Q & A and waiting only
adds to the frustration. You may be right, and "they" may be
right, but your definitions of "image" and "copy" are the
reverse of what some other knowledgeable people prefer. As
you say, I've tried both and they lead me ultimately to the
same place, which is almost a dead end. Even the Microsoft
Article 307654 doesn't accurately lead me to folders and
files that should be there. Maybe if they were there, my
system would work the way it should.

I acknowledge with appreciation that you spent considerable
time and effort trying to educate me, and to work through
to a solution to the problem. That you didn't succeed doesn't
mean that you failed....the problem may not be solvable. It
may be an after-effect or interactive effect, caused by
Microsoft's passion or obsession with security. Note,
however, that others have succeeded, maybe by starting
with a cleaner system.

As for Norton, their practice is to give you a document which
includes links to five other documents, each of which has links
to five other documents, and you have to print them all out
because you can't possibly remember what steps to take or
what registry items to find and delete, and the end result
is even more unsatisfying than what we've been going through.
Even more so than 307654 to which I was recently directed.

Again, please don't misinterpret my frustration and impatience
as dissatisfaction with your spirit of cooperation, only with
the end result.

 

[Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)]

Okay, William, I apologize for my stridency, your post just seemed to touch
a raw nerve with me. I understand your frustration and don't blame you for
being annoyed, you are justifiably so.

The Symantec newsgroup to which I pointed you is a user to user, peer
support group much the same as this group. They may point you toward Norton
Ghost, a very good product that I have used as well. As such, you might be
able to explain to the users what you are trying to do, what errors you've
received and they may be able to tell you why you've been having trouble
(Which may require an in-depth description of the procedure you followed) or
if what you are trying to do can be done. You should be able to get more
their than what you get from the Symantec website or their e-mail tech
support.

 

[Sharon F]

Okay, William, I apologize for my stridency, your post just seemed to touch
a raw nerve with me. I understand your frustration and don't blame you for
being annoyed, you are justifiably so.

The Symantec newsgroup to which I pointed you is a user to user, peer
support group much the same as this group. They may point you toward Norton
Ghost, a very good product that I have used as well. As such, you might be
able to explain to the users what you are trying to do, what errors you've
received and they may be able to tell you why you've been having trouble
(Which may require an in-depth description of the procedure you followed) or
if what you are trying to do can be done. You should be able to get more
their than what you get from the Symantec website or their e-mail tech
support.

Michael, I hope I didn't put an extra twist in this. I have great respect
for your knowledge and abilities. Apologies to you if anything I said made
you uncomfortable as that was not my intention. Your help in William's
experiments has been amazing and a learning experience for me.

Personally, I've used Drive Image and Image for Windows to create
compressed images of a drive. Have also restored those images successfully.
However, I've never created a cloned drive/copied drive/imaged drive that
can be dropped into place to run the operating system.