Epson printers - 2400 vs. 4800 ??

[Gordon Moat]

Yes.
We know that.
But is the difference between 4800 (for example) and 9600 able to be
visually perceived without a loupe?

Yes, not resolution, think tonality. The idea is that any inkjet
printer, or even commercial offset printing, is not continuous tone.
Chemically based images (photographs) are continuous tone. The idea
behind higher dpi, more accurate dot placements, or other developments,
is to get closer to that continuous tone appearance.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>

 

[Kennedy McEwen]

The relationship between dot density and pixel density sets the number
of shades that can be produced by the printer.

Not quite - and that is the entire principle of stochastic dither
algorithms. The number of shades that can be produced in a pixel can be
surprisingly low, even on a high quality image. However, providing the
error in the shade of each pixel averages out over a group of pixels to
a sufficiently low level then the percieved image will appear
continuous. You don't see posterisation on single pixels, you see it
across a large number of pixels.

 

[rafe b]

It is worth every bit of that extra $1000 if you want ultra chrome, larger
prints, serious longevity, and industrial-strength product build.

What it's "worth" has to be considered on
an individual basis.

Though the 4800 is "industrial strength," when
it's broken and out of warranty, you'll need
an industrial-strength wallet to get it fixed by
Epson, or you'll need to be very handy and
resourceful. Will you be ready to change out
dampers, heads, waste-ink pads or main-
boards when the time comes?

On the other hand, when my R1800 is busted
and out-of warranty (I give it 18-24 months, at
the outside) I have the option of just chucking
it in favor of whatever's the latest and greatest
at the moment. From Epson or anyone else.

So buying a 4800 is like getting married.
Buying the 2400 or 1800 is a bit more like
"living together".... a more tentative
relationship, you might say.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com

 

[Mark²]

What it's "worth" has to be considered on
an individual basis.

Of course...which is why I included the "if" on three items above.

Though the 4800 is "industrial strength," when
it's broken and out of warranty, you'll need
an industrial-strength wallet to get it fixed by
Epson, or you'll need to be very handy and
resourceful. Will you be ready to change out
dampers, heads, waste-ink pads or main-
boards when the time comes?

I will be very surprised if any of that occurs during the years I'll use
it...though of course...it does and could happen...
BTW--The waste-ink "pad" on the 4000/4800 is a relatively HUGE "drawer" that
pulls out easily (in about .5 seconds), and is designed to be replaced by
the user. It is amazing how massive the thing is compared with the tiny
little band-aid sized "pad" (as you appropriately called it) found in
Epson's lesser printers. On the other hand... The little pad in my old
1270 has done the job for 6 years...even though it appears to be quite
saturated. On the 4000/4800, the drawer is 9 inches long...4 inches
wide...and 3 inches tall...and the drawer is entirely filled with felt-like
absorbsion material. The menu system actually keeps track of how full the
drawer is, and will warn you when you need to have another one handy. I've
not filled one, but I've got a spare for when that need eventually comes.

The 4000/4800 also has other user-serviceable parts...such as rollers,
automatic paper cutting unit replacements, and other odds and ends. There
is also extensive cleaning/priming functions built in in the case that a
clog does occur. It is a very robust machine, built with the assumption
that it will see heavy, prolonged, day-to-day use by people who sell it's
prints.

On the other hand, when my R1800 is busted
and out-of warranty (I give it 18-24 months, at
the outside) I have the option of just chucking
it in favor of whatever's the latest and greatest
at the moment. From Epson or anyone else.

If it's like my 1270...and you take proper care of it...it will be working
just fine for the next 6 years and beyond.

So buying a 4800 is like getting married.
Buying the 2400 or 1800 is a bit more like
"living together".... a more tentative
relationship, you might say.

I can see how you could view it that way. To me, though, I've already got
my money out of my 4000.
I've made a great number of very large prints, especially panoramas. These
would not only have been very expensive to have printed by others, but I
would have lost control over my image. Ink costs compared with using teh
relatively miniscule cartridges of smaller untra chrome printers has helped
off-set the initial investment.

My $1000 gets me the prints I simply can't produce with an 1800 or other
smaller machines...so for me, it just made sense. And as you say...each
must weigh their own needs/priorities.

-Mark

 

[Nicholas O. Lindan]

Not quite - and that is the entire principle of stochastic dither
algorithms. The number of shades that can be produced in a pixel can be
surprisingly low, even on a high quality image. However, providing the
error in the shade of each pixel averages out >>> over a group of pixels <<< to
a sufficiently low level then the percieved image will appear
continuous.

Quite: All that has happened is the creation of an Uber-Pixel and
the true number of pix/inch goes down ...

So many dots == so much data: you can have it as # shades or as resolution
and one can only trade the one for the other.

Anybody want to buy a carburetor that lets a car run on water?

 

[Nicholas O. Lindan]

Though the 4800 is "industrial strength," when
it's broken and out of warranty, you'll need
an industrial-strength wallet to get it fixed...
On the other hand, when my R1800 is busted
and out-of warranty (I give it 18-24 months, at
the outside) I have the option of just chucking it

And when the R1800 hits the dust it's replacement will
be running rings around a "three year old clunker 4800".

Odds are though, that by the time the 1800 wears out
the 4800 will have been long gone. A low end computer
product is made in high volume with mature technology,
proper tooling and a hefty respect for warranty
repair costs.

IMHO, high end computer gear is not worth the money, it never
was and it never will be.

Not called 'Bleeding Edge Technology' for nothing.

 

[Nicholas O. Lindan]

BTW--The waste-ink "pad" on the 4000/4800 is a relatively HUGE "drawer" that
pulls out easily (in about .5 seconds), and is designed to be replaced by
the user. It is amazing how massive the thing is compared with the tiny
little band-aid sized "pad" (as you appropriately called it) found in
Epson's lesser printer [the 1270].

Oooops, that may be because it spits a lot of waste ink and a 1270
doesn't. Even with a very expensive razor it is still a blade
business.

Sorry Mark, I don't want to disparage your printer, I am sure if
I played with it I would be filled with lust for the product. I have
a whole storage room filled to the brim with old high-tech products.
Anybody have a use for a dozen IBM Professional Graphics Systems?

 

[rafe b]

And when the R1800 hits the dust it's replacement will
be running rings around a "three year old clunker 4800".

Odds are though, that by the time the 1800 wears out
the 4800 will have been long gone. A low end computer
product is made in high volume with mature technology,
proper tooling and a hefty respect for warranty
repair costs.

IMHO, high end computer gear is not worth the money, it never
was and it never will be.

Not called 'Bleeding Edge Technology' for nothing.

Not quite the way I see it, at least with Epson's stuff.

Epson's "bleeding edge" technology is generally
found in their desktop printers, not in the Pro series.

The Pro (4x00, 7x00, 9x00, 10x00) series is generally
built with more conservative technology, but with a
view toward heavy usage and ruggedness.

Knock wood, that old klunker 7000 in my basement
is still churning out beautiful prints, albeit with dye
inks and dots a bit larger than Mark's 4800. I've
never had a desktop printer, from any brand, last
more than a couple years with hard use.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com

 

[Mark²]

BTW--The waste-ink "pad" on the 4000/4800 is a relatively HUGE
"drawer" that pulls out easily (in about .5 seconds), and is
designed to be replaced by the user. It is amazing how massive the
thing is compared with the tiny little band-aid sized "pad" (as you
appropriately called it) found in Epson's lesser printer [the 1270].

Oooops, that may be because it spits a lot of waste ink and a 1270
doesn't. Even with a very expensive razor it is still a blade
business.

Yes. Of course that seems the obvious implication, though I've found it
doesn't really seem to "fill" with ink, so much as its absorbtion capacity
dwindles.
That's the other aspect worth mentioning: Part of the reason for such a
HUGE absorber is because when teh heads are cleaned/primed, that ink needs
somewhere to be drawn TO so that it's no longer resting against the heads
every time it parks there or is "cleaned." Without a huge section of
absorbtion material, that ink quickly runs out of area to be drawn away TO.
It's not as though it's just a dumping ground. It's sort of like using a
large towel to clean up a large spill. That extra area of towel means the
working surface of the towel maintains capacity to absorb...rather than just
rub wetness around...because the mess has had somewhere to wick to. With my
1270, that little ink pad has no absorbing capacity left (and hasn't for
years) because it's soaking wet all the time. Interestingly, it remains
wet...NEVER drying--even after long periods on non-use. This means that
instead of "cleaning" the head, it simply wipes goo around and ONTO the
head. Perhaps this is partly what's helped my 1270 keep from clogging
over the years...because the head can't dry out/clog when it's parked in big
mess of wet goop!

Sorry Mark, I don't want to disparage your printer, I am sure if
I played with it I would be filled with lust for the product.

That's OK. I consider myself as a separate entity from my printer and other
equipment (yes, that includes all my Canon gear)...so you can't offend me by
"dissing" my printer.

I have
a whole storage room filled to the brim with old high-tech products.

Me too. -I just threw a bunch of it away as I cleadned the garage
yesterday.

Anybody have a use for a dozen IBM Professional Graphics Systems?

I still had my old 386 (older stuff was long gone)....because it still ran
beautifully...with it's 4 MB or RAM (which was a lot at the time) and 80MB
hard drive. Compared with my older computers...I bought that 386 feeling
like it was an unbelievable piece of high tech mastery! Heck...it once was
just that.
I felt it might be somehow appropriate to play a soft rendition of Taps on a
bugle as I lowered it into the recyclable bin. On the other hand...I
now have that space in my garage where I can keep OTHER dinosaurs of the
technology age...until they get their own funeral.
-Mark

 

[Mark²]

Not quite the way I see it, at least with Epson's stuff.

Epson's "bleeding edge" technology is generally
found in their desktop printers, not in the Pro series.

The Pro (4x00, 7x00, 9x00, 10x00) series is generally
built with more conservative technology, but with a
view toward heavy usage and ruggedness.

Knock wood, that old klunker 7000 in my basement
is still churning out beautiful prints, albeit with dye
inks and dots a bit larger than Mark's 4800.

Except I actually have the 4000.
I'd love the 4800 for black & white (which is troublesome using ultra chrome
inks), but I wouldn't like the black-ink swapping costs when switching from
matte to luster, etc....and yes, I've heard of the "phatte black"
alternative that supposedly avoids this...

I've
never had a desktop printer, from any brand, last
more than a couple years with hard use.

That seems to be what I hear too, though I have a cheapie HP that's even
older than my 6 year old Epson 1270...and it still sees use at work.
Amazing, really. I think it's 8 years old...and still going strong.
-Mark

 

[Nicholas O. Lindan]

With my
1270, that little ink pad has no absorbing capacity left (and hasn't for
years) because it's soaking wet all the time. Interestingly, it remains
wet...NEVER drying--even after long periods on non-use. This means that
instead of "cleaning" the head, it simply wipes goo around and ONTO the
head. Perhaps this is partly what's helped my 1270 keep from clogging
over the years...because the head can't dry out/clog when it's parked in big
mess of wet goop!

By George I think you've got it! I have this almost permanently clogged
Epson on which I keep cleaning the head cleaning pad -- I've just been
making it worse [though I can't see how it gets much worse]. I think
I will splash on some anti-freeze [propylene glycol, TTTT] and
see what happens...

 

[Mark²]

With my
1270, that little ink pad has no absorbing capacity left (and hasn't
for years) because it's soaking wet all the time. Interestingly, it
remains wet...NEVER drying--even after long periods on non-use.
This means that instead of "cleaning" the head, it simply wipes goo
around and ONTO the head. Perhaps this is partly what's helped
my 1270 keep from clogging over the years...because the head can't
dry out/clog when it's parked in big mess of wet goop!

By George I think you've got it! I have this almost permanently
clogged Epson on which I keep cleaning the head cleaning pad -- I've
just been making it worse [though I can't see how it gets much
worse]. I think
I will splash on some anti-freeze [propylene glycol, TTTT] and
see what happens...

Anti-freeze? Perhaps just a few head-cleaning/purgings would work, as this
would only goop it up with ink...rather than introduce anti-freeze(??).
Never heard of that...

Anyway...I don't know for sure, but the *possible* benefits ofa goopy pad
regarding the clog issue does make sense...especially since I've been so
utterly clog-free for so long.

I'll be interested to hear how it goes with your printer, though it'll be
hard to tell in the short term.

 

[rafe b]

With my
1270, that little ink pad has no absorbing capacity left (and hasn't for
years) because it's soaking wet all the time. Interestingly, it remains
wet...NEVER drying--even after long periods on non-use. This means that
instead of "cleaning" the head, it simply wipes goo around and ONTO the
head. Perhaps this is partly what's helped my 1270 keep from clogging
over the years...because the head can't dry out/clog when it's parked in big
mess of wet goop!

By George I think you've got it! I have this almost permanently clogged
Epson on which I keep cleaning the head cleaning pad -- I've just been
making it worse [though I can't see how it gets much worse]. I think
I will splash on some anti-freeze [propylene glycol, TTTT] and
see what happens...

Windex is the stuff you want.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com

 

[Nicholas O. Lindan]

Windex is the stuff you want.

Tried it, tried every cleaning agent I can find. Near
as I can tell it's semi-permanently clogged up with something
in the innards of the print head.

 

[Gordon Moat]

And when the R1800 hits the dust it's replacement will
be running rings around a "three year old clunker 4800".

Odds are though, that by the time the 1800 wears out
the 4800 will have been long gone. A low end computer
product is made in high volume with mature technology,
proper tooling and a hefty respect for warranty
repair costs.

IMHO, high end computer gear is not worth the money, it never
was and it never will be.

Not called 'Bleeding Edge Technology' for nothing.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

The value of professional (high end) gear is that it can make you money.
That is the idea behind the top of the line Epson printers. However, to
be fair, there are other choices that are slightly lower in cost to
operate, though some of those choices cost more up front for the machine.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I agree that being able to remove the saturated waste ink pad unit has
some value, in fact, I advocated for this design in the consumer models
as well, since they obviously often get used well beyond one "fill up".

I believe the pro models use a "chipped" waste ink unit, so you
basically have a similar situation as with the cartridges, you either
have to figure out a way to reset the chip, or buy a new unit from Epson.

As to the size of the waste ink pads, you may need them that large,
especially if you have to change black ink types in that model. As with
all the wider carriage models that use ink tube delivery, when you
change the black ink type, the system purges the ink out of the head,
damper and tube. That in itself would be horrible, if it only did that
for the black head, but, at least with the other wide carriage models,
and I assume as well the 4000 model, all the ink colors are purged at
once due to the one purge pump and ganged cleaning station. That's a
LOT of ink going down the drain, so they best have a good size waste ink
holder.

There is something horribly ironic about having to pay nearly the cost
of the printer (in the consumer models) or for a chipped and
non-reusable waste ink container on the larger pro models) for a part
that 1) is capturing all that wasted costly ink you bought, and 2) in
part a result of design issues in the head, capping and ink formulation
cause this need to begin with.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

That's the other aspect worth mentioning: Part of the reason for such a
HUGE absorber is because when teh heads are cleaned/primed, that ink needs
somewhere to be drawn TO so that it's no longer resting against the heads
every time it parks there or is "cleaned." Without a huge section of
absorbtion material, that ink quickly runs out of area to be drawn away TO.
It's not as though it's just a dumping ground. It's sort of like using a
large towel to clean up a large spill. That extra area of towel means the
working surface of the towel maintains capacity to absorb...rather than just
rub wetness around...because the mess has had somewhere to wick to. With my
1270, that little ink pad has no absorbing capacity left (and hasn't for
years) because it's soaking wet all the time. Interestingly, it remains
wet...NEVER drying--even after long periods on non-use. This means that
instead of "cleaning" the head, it simply wipes goo around and ONTO the
head. Perhaps this is partly what's helped my 1270 keep from clogging
over the years...because the head can't dry out/clog when it's parked in big
mess of wet goop!

Epson printers mainly use gravity and the purge pump to remove the ink,
not capillary action as you suggest. If you have totally filled up your
1270's waste ink pad by resetting the counter, then it may be swimming
in ink, but I know of many people who have removed the waste ink tube
from their printer and directed it to a bottle, so there is no "wicking"
occurring, and the system works just fine (and you get to see just how
much ink is wasted, too).

Your 1270 probably just needs a good cleaning of the cleaning station.
The purge pump may be all gummed up as well. Cleaning the cleaning
station and ink wiper can make a improvement in the cleaning cycles as well.

Me too. -I just threw a bunch of it away as I cleadned the garage
yesterday.

The problem is we pretty much all have a basement/closet/room filled
with lower high tech, and eventually it's all going to be tossed, but
where? Consumers, governments and manufacturers need to work together
of reducing and eliminating this spiral.

I still had my old 386 (older stuff was long gone)....because it still ran
beautifully...with it's 4 MB or RAM (which was a lot at the time) and 80MB
hard drive. Compared with my older computers...I bought that 386 feeling
like it was an unbelievable piece of high tech mastery! Heck...it once was
just that.
I felt it might be somehow appropriate to play a soft rendition of Taps on a
bugle as I lowered it into the recyclable bin. On the other hand...I
now have that space in my garage where I can keep OTHER dinosaurs of the
technology age...until they get their own funeral.
-Mark

It saddens me to see so much "valuable" stuff get dumped. The items
were leading edge at one point, and people paid big money to be "on
top" with this stuff. The amount of money I have spent on storage media
and devices and memory, all completely obsolete now, is sickening... I
try not to think about it!

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

The inks do use glycols as wetting agents and to slow down drying, to
try to lessen clogs. Which glycol they use, I am not sure, but I
suspect it's ethylene (which is poisonous, particularly to cats and dogs
even in relatively small amounts (well, they'd probably have to drink
the ink of a half a cartridge)... So, dispose of waste ink and empties
safely, away from pets or where animals can get at them. Glycols
small/taste sweet on their own, making them attractive to animals.

Art

With my
1270, that little ink pad has no absorbing capacity left (and hasn't for
years) because it's soaking wet all the time. Interestingly, it remains
wet...NEVER drying--even after long periods on non-use. This means that
instead of "cleaning" the head, it simply wipes goo around and ONTO the
head. Perhaps this is partly what's helped my 1270 keep from clogging
over the years...because the head can't dry out/clog when it's parked in big
mess of wet goop!

By George I think you've got it! I have this almost permanently clogged
Epson on which I keep cleaning the head cleaning pad -- I've just been
making it worse [though I can't see how it gets much worse]. I think
I will splash on some anti-freeze [propylene glycol, TTTT] and
see what happens...

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Most anti-freeze is still ethylene glycol, although the low toxicity
propylene is now being distributed. Propylene glycol is used as an
emulsifier and smoothing agent in foods.

Art

With my
1270, that little ink pad has no absorbing capacity left (and hasn't
for years) because it's soaking wet all the time. Interestingly, it
remains wet...NEVER drying--even after long periods on non-use.
This means that instead of "cleaning" the head, it simply wipes goo
around and ONTO the head. Perhaps this is partly what's helped
my 1270 keep from clogging over the years...because the head can't
dry out/clog when it's parked in big mess of wet goop!

By George I think you've got it! I have this almost permanently
clogged Epson on which I keep cleaning the head cleaning pad -- I've
just been making it worse [though I can't see how it gets much
worse]. I think
I will splash on some anti-freeze [propylene glycol, TTTT] and
see what happens...

Anti-freeze? Perhaps just a few head-cleaning/purgings would work, as this
would only goop it up with ink...rather than introduce anti-freeze(??).
Never heard of that...

Anyway...I don't know for sure, but the *possible* benefits ofa goopy pad
regarding the clog issue does make sense...especially since I've been so
utterly clog-free for so long.

I'll be interested to hear how it goes with your printer, though it'll be
hard to tell in the short term.

 

[Bill Hilton]

Arthur Entlich writes ...

As with all the wider carriage models that use ink tube delivery,
when you change the black ink type, the system purges the ink
out of the head, damper and tube. That in itself would be horrible,
if it only did that for the black head, but, at least with the other
wide carriage models, and I assume as well the 4000 model,
all the ink colors are purged at once due to the one purge pump
and ganged cleaning station.

Once again your ignorance of all things Epson shows ... you never have
to "change the black ink type" in the 4000 because it has both Photo
black and Matte black available at all times, switching between them as
required based on the chosen paper type. You are confusing that model
with others that only have a slot for one black cart at a time.

That's a LOT of ink going down the drain

I've owned a 4000 for going on two years and never had to change the
waste tank ... you are confused.

Bill