Dumb onboard vide question?

[me]

Questions

If buying a card with a dedicated video card FROM the
factory..... does that mean there does NOT exist any
onboard video period on the m-board?

IOW.... are the two motherboards different.... one have
onboard video and the other none.... or do ALL
motherboard have onboard video among all lines and they
just turn it off if dedicated card ordered?

 

[Paul]

Questions

If buying a card with a dedicated video card FROM the
factory..... does that mean there does NOT exist any
onboard video period on the m-board?

IOW.... are the two motherboards different.... one have
onboard video and the other none.... or do ALL
motherboard have onboard video among all lines and they
just turn it off if dedicated card ordered?

No, there are different chipsets, some with video and
some without.

Built-in video tends to get used on microATX sized boards.
A board like that is 9.6"x9.6", tends to be lower priced,
and might be used in a business computer. By using
integrated video in the chipset, the motherboard
manufacturer hopes to reduce the cost of ownership
for the large business having the computer built.

There are exceptions to every rule, and I have seen
12"x9.6" full sized ATX boards with integrated video as well.

An integrated video chipset, can continue to have a
PCI Express x16 interface, so that a video card can be
plugged in. There are also some integrated video chipsets,
which don't have the PCI Express x16 or AGP interface present.

Some examples from my generation of motherboards.

875P - DDR, enthusiast chipset, AGP slot, no built-in video.
865PE - Same features, slightly lower price. (Lower overclock.)
865G - Same features, but with integrated video, and can use
AGP slot. If AGP card is plugged in, built-in is disabled.
865GV - "Graphics Value". Has integrated video, but no AGP slot.
Used in pre-built Dell/HP/Gateway computers, to surprise
and shock customers, who later discover they cannot upgrade
the video by buying a good video card.

http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/chipsets/index.htm?iid=chipsets_body+dt_all

Paul

 

[me]

No, there are different chipsets, some with video and
some without.

Wow

I'm glad I asked then! I would have assumed that ALL
motherboards now days had some form if integrated video
and sound!

 

[Paul]

Wow

I'm glad I asked then! I would have assumed that ALL
motherboards now days had some form if integrated video
and sound!

Inclusion of integrated sound is pretty good. I cannot remember
the last motherboard that lacked some form of sound. Some of
the motherboards now, even include their own separate sound card.
And that is done, to improve the background noise level in the
sound subsystem. (The motherboard is an electrically noisy place.)

So getting *some* sound is not a problem.

Video, on the other hand, is pretty well divided between small
and big motherboards. The small ones get it, the big ones don't.
On the big ones, you can put in a separate video card in the
provided AGP or PCI Express x16 slot.

You can find cheap video cards, although they may not play games well.

This card is "so good", they couldn't even afford a picture

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102078

Paul

 

[me]

Inclusion of integrated sound is pretty good. I cannot remember
the last motherboard that lacked some form of sound. Some of
the motherboards now, even include their own separate sound card.
And that is done, to improve the background noise level in the
sound subsystem. (The motherboard is an electrically noisy place.)

Ok thanks

The reason I ask these questions is that I'm on a
severe budget right now.... full time adult college
student with no income for a few more months.

But I NEED a computer ....don't have anything right now
at home. I thought abt a laptop but just hate lugging
anything around! And some of the things I want to
"play" with..... voice recognition software, VM Ware
maybe, just would probably work better on a desktop
system. Also thinking abt using it for TV DVR by
putting TV tuner card in it.

You just get so much more "bang for buck" with a
desktop over a laptop...even a cheap desktop!

Anyway..... been thinking abt this $519 Dell Optiplex
deal in link

http://www.dell.com/content/product...&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&dgc=BF&cid=27471&lid=639567

I was thinking I could buy it "bare bones" with onboard
video only just to get buy..... put TV tuner card in it
when back to work this summer. Work?

Then..... if I really do need some kind of mobile
device would get a super small device like a pocket PC
or palm unit with wireless built in.

 

[Paul]

Ok thanks

The reason I ask these questions is that I'm on a
severe budget right now.... full time adult college
student with no income for a few more months.

But I NEED a computer ....don't have anything right now
at home. I thought abt a laptop but just hate lugging
anything around! And some of the things I want to
"play" with..... voice recognition software, VM Ware
maybe, just would probably work better on a desktop
system. Also thinking abt using it for TV DVR by
putting TV tuner card in it.

You just get so much more "bang for buck" with a
desktop over a laptop...even a cheap desktop!

Anyway..... been thinking abt this $519 Dell Optiplex
deal in link

http://www.dell.com/content/product...&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&dgc=BF&cid=27471&lid=639567

I was thinking I could buy it "bare bones" with onboard
video only just to get buy..... put TV tuner card in it
when back to work this summer. Work?

Then..... if I really do need some kind of mobile
device would get a super small device like a pocket PC
or palm unit with wireless built in.

I found a manual here, but it doesn't have a picture of the
motherboard that I've found yet.

Optiplex 330 User's Guide
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/op330/en/ug/RW281A00MR.pdf

Pg.27 Mini Tower Specification.

G31 Northbridge (G means built-in graphics)
ICH7R Southbridge (R for RAID capable, 4 SATA, 2 IDE on one cable)
2 DDR2 memory slots (2 x 2GB max)

Optional PS/2 (see the accessories tab on the Dell page -
"PS2 Serial port adapter, full height [add $9]"). One guy in one
of the WinXP groups, is dealing with a problem right now, where
the USB ports stopped working, and he doesn't see a PS/2 connector
to use for his backup keyboard. He has no way to do input. If the
optional part is available, it would be handy to have.

Audio is via an Analog Devices HDaudio chip AD1984. Speakers
are an optional extra (see the accessories tab on the Dell page,
or shop for speakers separately). I have a set of $20 amplified
speakers I got from a surplus place in town that I'm using right
now, after my stereo died, and they're good enough for simple things.
You need amplified speakers or "computer" speakers for this, as the
computer only has milliwatts of audio power (enough for headphones,
but not enough to drive the cone of an unamplified speaker).

305W power supply, manual claims 25W PCI Express x16 slot. A
normal PCI Express video card slot, has a 75W rating. Whether
the rating in the manual, is related to the power supply is
unclear. When you build a computer, normally you'd use something
a bit bigger than that, to allow for future expansion. And that
is one of the things I don't like about some of the prebuilt
computers.

I couldn't find a spec for the power supply. This is for another
Dell 305W. This is what you might see printed on the label stuck
to the side of the power supply.

3.3V @ 17A, 5V @ 22A, 12V1 @ 18A, 12V2 @ 18A, -12V @ 1A, 5VSB @ 2A
<------ <150W -----> <------ <264W -------->
<---------------------------- <305W ----------------------------->

I downloaded a brochure for a business version of the thing you're
interested in, and it looks like the video card they offer is an
ATI HD 2400 series. (The Southbridge listed in this document
is also different, which bothers me a bit. I wonder if Dell
really knows what they're shipping ?)

http://www.dell.com/downloads/ap/products/optix/brochure_optix_330_anz.pdf

The manual says full height cards are supported, but it doesn't
mention card length. Before you buy a graphics card some day,
you may want to take the side off and check the available space.
Some video cards are 8" or 8.5" or so, long, and may not fit
in a compact computer. (One of the reasons I like to build my
own, and pick a larger case.)

The E4500 is listed here. 65W max power, doesn't use much of the 264W
limit. It is possible the video card slot power limit is thermal,
and maybe they state that limit, to keep the temperature reasonable
in the box. Otherwise, I would think there'd be a bit more than
25W available to run a video card. The box really shouldn't be
that hard on electricity in normal usage (won't draw 305W all
the time, but a lesser number).

http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLA95

I don't see anything wrong with the computer, except if you wanted
to build a gaming rig from it. For video or TV, it should be OK. One
of those 2.2GHz processors, is roughly equivalent to a 3.3GHz+ P4.
(The Core2 family has a higher IPC than the P4, which is why the
lower clock speed is not a problem.)

Don't forget the PS/2 adapter

Paul

 

[me]

I found a manual here, but it doesn't have a picture of the
motherboard that I've found yet.

Wow Paul.... thanks so much!!!

I'm also gonna need a wireless PCI card for the
desktop.

Would like to go ahead and get an N card I think

any advice on brand/model card to get from NewEgg?

Or is N still over kill? If yes... what lower spec card
from NewEgg?

 

[Paul]

Wow Paul.... thanks so much!!!

I'm also gonna need a wireless PCI card for the
desktop.

Would like to go ahead and get an N card I think

any advice on brand/model card to get from NewEgg?

Or is N still over kill? If yes... what lower spec card
from NewEgg?

Do you already have a wireless router ? What is the planned
setup ?

"N" here, certainly has advantages possible with its usage,
but I wonder how many of those would still exist in a
congested situation (like an apartment building). If the
protocol requires dropping back to less greedy settings,
when there are a lot of other wireless lans in the vicinity,
maybe there isn't quite as much advantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_N

I get the impression sometimes, that "N" is like a part of
a "wireless arms race"

If you buy "N" now, it would be Draft N, and I understand
that sometimes, if you mix brands of components, they
end up using less aggressive settings (20 MHz channel). I'd try
reading the Newegg reviews, to see what kind of reported
thruput they were getting, when mixing different brands,
or staying within the same brand, for the components.

I like wires myself, because their behavior is more
predictable. I haven't even tried any wireless yet.

Paul

 

[me]

Do you already have a wireless router ? What is the planned
setup ?

No router yet either but would go N there as well I
think

Bad idea? Just get cheaper and wait?

Other question..... one thing I don't like abt the
Optiplex is the physical size of the case. I really
don't need all that room. just need space for one TV
tuner card and wireless adapter card. cant see myself
stuffing more than one hard drive in it.

Do the small for factor version of the Otiplex present
a problem in that regard? Will it be hard...almost
impossible to find half height TV tuner card, wireless
cards, etc?

 

[Paul]

No router yet either but would go N there as well I
think

Bad idea? Just get cheaper and wait?

Other question..... one thing I don't like abt the
Optiplex is the physical size of the case. I really
don't need all that room. just need space for one TV
tuner card and wireless adapter card. cant see myself
stuffing more than one hard drive in it.

Do the small for factor version of the Otiplex present
a problem in that regard? Will it be hard...almost
impossible to find half height TV tuner card, wireless
cards, etc?

I think you know the answer to that question already.

The smaller you make or buy a computer, the harder
it is to find stuff to fit, to meet all the
constraints it presents.

I view the computer, as an expandable workbench,
ready to take whatever stuff I want to throw in it.
The size to me is irrelevant. What would really
annoy me, is if I discovered there was some
expansion feature I overlooked. So I value
function over form, and would sooner have a
practical box, than a pretty one.

Now you understand why I suggested throwing in that
$9 PS/2 adapter. I would rather spend $9 now, than
discover two years from now, I needed a PS/2 connector
right this instant, and I couldn't plug anything in
because it was missing.

I would expect your main problem, would be fitting a
future video card. Getting a decent one of those,
half height in form factor, with a quiet cooler,
would be a challenge. There are no after market
coolers to fit a half height card, so you cannot
fix a noise problem later.

TV tuners are getting quite small, and if forced to,
you could always get a USB version of one of those.
For those, read plenty of reviews, because product
quality is variable. On some of these, the weak
link is the accompanying software - some people buy
third party recording applications, to use with the
hardware they buy. So that can be a hidden cost.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/15-116-017-01.jpg

Paul

 

[me]

I think you know the answer to that question already.

The smaller you make or buy a computer, the harder
it is to find stuff to fit, to meet all the
constraints it presents.

I view the computer, as an expandable workbench,
ready to take whatever stuff I want to throw in it.
The size to me is irrelevant.

Agree with your logic! But doesn't the Shuttle form
factor at lest allow you to use one or two FULL size
cards....something the "thin" and taller form factors
do not?

Se link

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101059

Cant I put one or two REG an full size cards in this
box?


Where as with something like this form factor in link
below it would be impossible?

http://www.dell.com/content/product...tix_740?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~tab=bundlestab

See where it says "low" profile cards in slots in ink
above?

Bottom line.isn't the Shuttle just a reg mini tower
HACKED of at top and therefore better than the "other"
small computers?

Just trying to learn something here..... I'm ready to
pull the trigger real soon.... but keep coming back to
this Shuttle form factor idea since I anticipate only
one or two extra cards in the box... and need full
height.

 

[Paul]

Agree with your logic! But doesn't the Shuttle form
factor at lest allow you to use one or two FULL size
cards....something the "thin" and taller form factors
do not?

Se link

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101059

Cant I put one or two REG an full size cards in this
box?


Where as with something like this form factor in link
below it would be impossible?

http://www.dell.com/content/product...tix_740?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~tab=bundlestab

See where it says "low" profile cards in slots in ink
above?

Bottom line.isn't the Shuttle just a reg mini tower
HACKED of at top and therefore better than the "other"
small computers?

Just trying to learn something here..... I'm ready to
pull the trigger real soon.... but keep coming back to
this Shuttle form factor idea since I anticipate only
one or two extra cards in the box... and need full
height.

The power supply in the shuttle is 250W. The form factor is
not ATX. The Shuttle PC50 might be an upgrade for it. Or
if the original fails.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/56-101-059-10.jpg

You can see the power supply as a separate item here. There isn't
enough current for a top end video card. You have to be more
careful doing power calculations, when the supply has only
250W. There is certainly enough power for a HTPC. And I know
some people "run the wheels" off these things (run them on the
edge).

http://www.fastcorp.co.jp/product/shuttle/img/sg_250.gif

3.3V @ 18A
+5V @ 19A
+12V @ 16A (Peak 18 A - like during startup, for the first 10 seconds)
-12V @ 0.3A
+5VSB @ 2.0 A

I don't see anything wrong with the Shuttle, for what it is
intended for. It would probably make a dandy HTPC. But for
gaming, there would be more heat from a gaming video card,
and while some of the Shuttles have a side vent, it still
isn't an ideal situation. (Notice the comment by one poster
here, that the power supply lasts about 3 years.)

http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/100997/

In this picture, you can see the two card slots. Note that
the right most one in the picture, is pretty close to the
case cover. Depending on the clearance, you might have a
problem with stuffing a card in there (like if the card
had a heatsink or some other large component). That
might even be the video card slot.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/56-101-059-07.jpg

There is a review here, in Japanese.

http://www.woosusu.com/mbs/index.php?13,847,cid=1

This picture gives a bit better view of the two card slots.

http://img.danawa.com/images/desc/7/200712/13/64051/a 023.jpg

They used a fanless video card in that article, and presumably
it is a one-slot-thick card, and that is why it fits.

You're right, the PCI slot looks fine.

Paul

 

[Paul]

305W power supply, manual claims 25W PCI Express x16 slot. A
normal PCI Express video card slot, has a 75W rating. Whether
the rating in the manual, is related to the power supply is
unclear. When you build a computer, normally you'd use something
a bit bigger than that, to allow for future expansion. And that
is one of the things I don't like about some of the prebuilt
computers.

I found a reference to a 25W power limit for PCI Express graphics.

http://www.pcisig.com/developers/ma...c_id=d872e785231af9805c112a0a3844f21c9410a858

On page 32 of that spec, a reference is made to a "low profile card".
So the 25W limit may be implying that a full sized video card
won't fit.

It would be something to check at least.

Paul

 

[ProfGene]

Questions

If buying a card with a dedicated video card FROM the
factory..... does that mean there does NOT exist any
onboard video period on the m-board?

IOW.... are the two motherboards different.... one have
onboard video and the other none.... or do ALL
motherboard have onboard video among all lines and they
just turn it off if dedicated card ordered?

Not all motherboards have onboard video