Making an informed choice

[edswoods.1]

I'm searching for a recommendation. I'd go ask the local custom PC
builders, but if I bought from them I'd be paying "convenience store"
prices when I'd like to shop at Aldi.
This time when I buy a motherboard I don't want to be disappointed.
One way to avoid
disappointment is to know with as much specificity as possible what
features you want.
Could anyone recommend an Asus or Intel
Motherboard that will accept the following components
and have the following specs, keeping cost in mind?


Pentium D 950 Presler (reasonable choice?)


2 10000 rpm sata hard drives 0 stripe configuration

1 ide hard drive for backup

pci express and agp (don't know if these come together, but I'd like
to have
the option)

800 fsb

2 gb ddr 3200

I'd like to stick with ATX form factor because I don't
like the idea of all that hot stuff being crammed
even closer together.
I don't want to ask too many questions in one post, but
concerning onboard video - is this a mark of a lower-end motherboard,
or do better-featured motherboards sometimes have it too? In any case,
I will be getting a video card.

Thanks anyone
..

 

[RussellS]

Ed,

If you're looking for a motherboard only, and already have the other parts
to install, your choices are limited if you want to run DDR memory with a
Pentium D, since most compatible chipsets that accept the Pentium D use DDR2
memory. Your choices are even more limited if you want both AGP and
PCI-Express graphics ports onboard.

Having said that, I believe that Asrock has a motherboard with an ATI
chipset that features DDR RAM compatibility with a Pentium D and had both an
AGP and a PCI-Express graphics port, SATA RAID and an 800MHz FSB. You're
not going to find anything from Intel or Asus with those specific features
all bundled together.

Now...if you don't have the other components already, I'd go for a Core 2
Duo processor instead on the Pentium D and go with DDR2 RAM, PCI-Express
graphics and an Intel 965/975 series chipset. Motherboards for the Core 2
Duo processor generally also accept the Pentium D as well, if you already
have the processor, and it'll give you processor upgrade leeway later on.

Regarding the question about onboard graphics chips being a sign of an
inferior motherboard, that's not necessarily true. There are great
motherboards using the Intel 965G/945G, ATI and NVIDIA chipsets that have
onboard graphics as well as a separate PCI-Express port for a later graphics
card upgrade. If you want an onboard graphics chip, just be sure to get a
motherboard that also has a separate graphics card slot for upgradeability.
I'd personally steer clear of VIA chipset motherboards, and would prefer an
Intel chipset if you're not looking for an SLi/Crossfire dual card
motherboard.

Hope this is of some help to you.

 

[edswoods.1]

Ed,

Now...if you don't have the other components already, I'd go for a Core 2
Duo processor instead on the Pentium D and go with DDR2 RAM, PCI-Express
graphics and an Intel 965/975 series chipset. Motherboards for the Core 2
Duo processor generally also accept the Pentium D as well, if you already
have the processor, and it'll give you processor upgrade leeway later on.
Hope this is of some help to you.

I haven't gotten anything yet. This sounds like the way to go. Do you
think
I could find a motherboard in the $150.00 price range for this
processor-ram
combination? I could use makes and model numbers if it's off the top
of your
head.

thanks
Ed

 

[Paul]

I haven't gotten anything yet. This sounds like the way to go. Do you
think
I could find a motherboard in the $150.00 price range for this
processor-ram
combination? I could use makes and model numbers if it's off the top
of your
head.

thanks
Ed

To do the search, some motherboard companies have a page with
CPU compatibility info.

http://support.asus.com/cpusupport/cpusupport.aspx?SLanguage=en-us

If I search by CPU type here, for a Core 2 Duo E6600, or other
members of the same Core 2 Duo family, I can get a list like
this:

http://support.asus.com/cpusupport/....40GHz,1066FSB,L2:4MB,rev.B2)&SLanguage=en-us

Core 2 Duo E6600 (2.40GHz,1066FSB,L2:4MB,rev.B2)
The following table shows the support for CPU / Motherboard

Motherboard Since PCB Since BIOS Note
P3-PE5 ALL 0402
P5B ALL 0211
P5B Deluxe ALL 0302
P5B Deluxe/WiFi-AP ALL 0302
P5B-E ALL 0211
P5B-E Plus ALL 0302
P5B-V ALL 0117
P5B-VM ALL 0207
P5GZ-MX ALL 0205
P5LD2 2.01G 1207
P5LD2 SE 2.01G 0314
P5LD2-VM 2.00G 0901
P5LD2-VM DH 2.00G 0501
P5LD2-VM SE ALL 0401
P5L-MX ALL 0115
P5L-VM 1394 ALL 0203
P5N32-SLI Premium ALL 0401
P5N32-SLI SE Deluxe ALL 0204
P5NSLI 2.00 0601
P5PE-VM ALL 0604
P5VD2-MX ALL 0501
P5VDC-MX 2.00G 0709
P5V-VM DH ALL 0401
P5W DH Deluxe ALL 1101
P5W64 WS Professional ALL 0116
P5WDG2 WS Professional ALL 0206
T3-P5G965 ALL 0124
V2-PE2 ALL 0301

Then, go to Newegg, and list Asus socket 775 motherboards by price.
Find the cheapest board that is in the list above, and work from
there. The cheapest boards will have non-Intel chipsets, or
may be fashioned with older generation chipsets. The older
generation chipsets are good if you want to reuse DDR memory
or perhaps an AGP video card. For example, the revision 2
of this board, supports DDR, AGP, and can take a Core 2 Duo
processor (not that I'd want to try it, but it is offered):

http://usa.asus.com/products4.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=814&l1=3&l2=11&l3=242

Note - be careful with the boards listed as "2.01G" and the
like, as there is no easy way with online retailers, to verify
that you are getting one of the new revision motherboards. And
that is why changing revision numbers to handle Conroe/Allendale
is such a stupid idea. With online retailers, the phone support
is in a different city than the warehouse holding the goods, and
it is not possible for the phone support to dig up more info
than is shown online. Dealing with a local mom&pop computer
store, may make verifying a revision "2.01G" motherboard a
bit easier.

Boards with VM or MX in the name, may have built in graphics in
the Northbridge. That may offer a cheaper way to get a system
up and running, until you know what PCI Express video card to
get. Unless you just bought a high end AGP video card just
yesterday, and cannot bear the thought of wasting the money
spent on it, you'd be well advised to find a motherboard with a
PCI Express x16 slot and live with that. While you still occasionally
find new AGP cards being introduced, sometimes the drivers for
them leave a bit to be desired.

You can read the reviews that come with the Newegg products, to
get some idea of how new the product is, whether the BIOS is in
good shape etc.

The Asus manuals are downloadable, so you can read the manual and
see if the BIOS features you need are there. This is mainly
important for overclockers, but finding RAM adjustments
(timing, clock) does allow fixing compatibility problems if they
arise. And even a non-overclocking user may have need of
such adjustments. (Sort of like having a manual choke on an
old car - you can limp to the service station by pulling out
the choke.)

The Asus hosted forums here (when they are working), also have
thousands of posts offering feedback:

http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx?board_id=1&model=P5L-MX&SLanguage=en-us

If you want weird-ass boards, then Asrock is one place to look.
This board for example, supports both a real AGP slot, and has
PCI Express x4 wiring to a PCI Express video card slot. The
board does not support Conroe/Allendale, and while they could
likely have made a revision 2 of this board to do that, perhaps
the market demand for Conroe+AGP+PCI_Express_video just isn't there.
This kind of board would fill the niche where the owner wanted
to try both AGP and PCI Express cards, and can live with a bit
of performance loss when using PCI Express. If you are spending
a couple hundred on a new PCI Express video card, then you might
be better off thinking about a new motherboard with a full x16
rated interface on it instead.

http://www.asrock.com/product/775Dual-880Pro.htm

(The only good mixed tech board, was an Asrock board with a
ULI chipset for AMD processors. It had both a real AGP slot
and a real PCI Express x16 slot. I haven't seen anything like
that for Intel processors, and if a board comes with two
different video card slot types, usually one of them is
substandard performance-wise.)

It pays to stick with the mainstream and buy a more popular
board. A more popular board may get more BIOS updates than
an orphan. It also pays to note the technology trends -
the writing is on the wall for AGP, and I would stick with
a PCI Express video card slot equipped motherboard at this
point.

In terms of chipsets, the Southbridge has storage interfaces
on it. Intel ICH7 still has an IDE (PATA) ribbon cable interface.
ICH8 is going all SATA. If you own and use a lot of PATA (I
have no SATA drives), then you may want to consider the
Southbridge type as part of the purchase decision. Or find
a $35 PCI IDE plugin card to go with the motherboard.

Since there are so many variations involved, and the OPs
tastes may differ from mine, I'll leave the final selection
to you. This would be my choice, as a compromise between
best motherboard options, and sticking with the mainstream.
PCI Express x16 video, built-in graphics if you don't have
a video card yet, four DDR2 memory slots, Firewire/1394.
4 SATA, one PATA (good for a hard drive plus an old CDROM). $97
Apparently hasn't been shipping for too long, so user
experience is limited. I never buy the cheapest board
I can find, as it is a false economy...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131046

HTH,
Paul

 

[edswoods.1]

I haven't gotten anything yet. This sounds like the way to go. Do you
think
I could find a motherboard in the $150.00 price range for this
processor-ram
combination? I could use makes and model numbers if it's off the top
of your
head.

thanks
Ed

Thanks for pointing my nose in the right direction. Looks like a
Core 2 Duo and an
Asus P5W DH board. I do have another question, though.
Do you think there's a money's worth of difference between the E6300
and E6600
processors?

thanks again
Ed

 

[RussellS]

If you do a lot of CPU-intensive tasks on a regular basis, and are not
intending on upgrading for awhile, then perhaps the doubled L2 Cache on the
E6600 would be worth the extra $135 or so to you. The E6300, however, is a
great processor at a very good price that can be easily overclocked and will
perform well for you in any configuration, and if you're using the new
system for business apps, you shouldn't really notice any performance
difference between the 2. Maybe you could spend the extra money on more
memory or a graphics card upgrade.

 

[johns]

I would not do any of that. ASUS has a lot of useless
options and jumpers on their mobos, but you'll never
get a well integrated product just buying parts. To
design a well integrated system that does what you
need or want, and will work when you get it, you
should study it from an application point of view.
Then, you should look at warranty and company
tech support. And, finally, you should talk to the
people who have built systems like the one you
want. Here's a bunch of "other" considerations:

Sony DVDRW drives are quiet. ALL the rest of
them are noisy, and really irritating .. esp LG and
NEC. You can get NERO and PowerDVD bundled
with a Sony drive.

You only need 1 hard drive. It should be a 300 gig
SATA. Maxtor drives fail rapidly. Hitachi ( IBM )
drives seem to be much more reliable, and they
are quiet. People with multiple hard drives .. esp
SCSI, are stuck in the DOS era, and are highly
misinformed about what computers are good for.
Mostly they just don't care. All they really want to
do is use jargon.

When buying a mobo, ram, and cpu, you should
buy from a dealer who assembles and tests the
bundle .. and warrantees it themselves. I prefer
the Gigabyte bundles because that gives me 2
sources of tech support on the mobo, and I don't
get into a "parts" conflict ... OR especially, I don't
get sent a refurb that some kid broke. Right now,
I think optimum speed for games and apps, only
needs the AMD Athlon 64 3800 ... or the X2
version of same.

Right now, there are 2 video cards on the market
... the nVidia 7900 and 7950. The rest are junk.
You don't need SLI anything.

You do need a floppy drive.

You need to become familiar with Zalmon and
Artic Cooler technology for the cpu and video
card.

The best PVR on the market is the ATI 550
pci-e X1 card. All of the Hauppauges are pci,
and have problems with sync of audio-video.

I like the Antec SLK1650B case .. with a TruePower
480 watt psupply. It is very quiet.

I'm a real fan of the Viewsonic 20 inch wide-screen
LCD monitor. It is excellent for gaming, TV, DVD,
and as a CAD workstation monitor.

You need to know who the scumbag dealers are
.... and also who has been good to work with ..
so far.
Mwave is excellent .. esp mobo bundles
NewEgg gives good prices .. won't answer their phone.
XFX will send you a refurb video card, and require a
15% restocking fee. Buy your video card from BFG.

johns

 

[Rod Speed]

I would not do any of that. ASUS has a lot of useless
options and jumpers on their mobos, but you'll never
get a well integrated product just buying parts. To
design a well integrated system that does what you
need or want, and will work when you get it, you
should study it from an application point of view.
Then, you should look at warranty and company
tech support. And, finally, you should talk to the
people who have built systems like the one you
want. Here's a bunch of "other" considerations:

Sony DVDRW drives are quiet. ALL the rest of them
are noisy, and really irritating .. esp LG and NEC.

Pig ignorant lie, my LG is very quiet.

You can get NERO and PowerDVD bundled with a Sony drive.

You only need 1 hard drive. It should be a 300 gig
SATA. Maxtor drives fail rapidly. Hitachi ( IBM ) drives
seem to be much more reliable, and they are quiet.

Samsungs are quieter.

People with multiple hard drives .. esp SCSI, are
stuck in the DOS era, and are highly misinformed
about what computers are good for. Mostly they just
don't care. All they really want to do is use jargon.

When buying a mobo, ram, and cpu, you should
buy from a dealer who assembles and tests the
bundle .. and warrantees it themselves. I prefer
the Gigabyte bundles because that gives me 2
sources of tech support on the mobo, and I don't
get into a "parts" conflict ... OR especially, I don't
get sent a refurb that some kid broke. Right now,
I think optimum speed for games and apps, only
needs the AMD Athlon 64 3800 ... or the X2
version of same.

Right now, there are 2 video cards on the market
.. the nVidia 7900 and 7950. The rest are junk.
You don't need SLI anything.

You do need a floppy drive.
Nope.

You need to become familiar with Zalmon and Artic
Cooler technology for the cpu and video card.

Nope, particularly with the cpu.

The best PVR on the market is the ATI 550
pci-e X1 card. All of the Hauppauges are pci,
and have problems with sync of audio-video.

I like the Antec SLK1650B case .. with a
TruePower 480 watt psupply. It is very quiet.

 

[edswoods.1]

You only need 1 hard drive. It should be a 300 gig
SATA. Maxtor drives fail rapidly.

johns

Does anyone make a quality 10000 rpm hard drive
at a reasonable price?
To my untrained eye these drives are noticably faster.
And I'm hard of hearing, the only sounds I can hear
coming from the computer are the cheap fans I'm using
and maybe when the AV program is doing its daily
scan.

Ed

 

[johns]

I have replaced 100s of Western Digital drives. Doesn't
mean that some day they won't make a good one, but
I've been bit enough. Hard drive speed is kind of wasted
if you have enough ram, and a good cpu. My first
consideration with hard drives is warranty, compatability,
and reliability. Maxtor is none of the above, and getting
worse. I've run tests using MathCAD to solve a very
complex engineering calc on a huge data base. First,
I ran the calc on a Sun Microsystem dual Opteron PC
with SCSI hard drives .. a super-server. It was very
quick, and does all the multi-threading blah, blah, blah.
I then ran the same benchmark on a simple ATX mobo
that I use for gaming. It has 4 gigs ddr400, and an AMD
Athlon 64 3200+ cpu, hard drive is Hitachi 160 gig SATA.
It ran dead even with the Opteron ... and the Opteron
won't even start Far Cry .. crap of a video card in it.
I'm pretty sure my new 3800 X2 would just skunk it.

johns