Did anyone try to open a hard disk?

Y

yaro137

Well, I did and there is something that bothers me. I opened 2 old
laptop hard disks. One was surely working but in case of the second
one I'm not so sure. Anyway, after dismantling the controller cards
and then getting inside the drives I also managed to remove the plates
being very careful all the time. Then, once I connected the controller
cards back I was trying to connect the disks to my laptop via USB
connector. The green diode on the connector indicated that a device is
connected but the electric motor of the hard disk wasn't moving at
all. I did the same with the second disk and in this case the motor,
for a while was making small jumpy movements and than stopped. When I
tried to help it a bit ;-) it started again, changing the direction of
the movement this time. Eventually, within 2 or 3 seconds it stopped.
Can anyone tell me why the motor refused to work?
yaro
 
G

GT

Well, I did and there is something that bothers me. I opened 2 old
laptop hard disks.

Immediately introducing dust and moisture from the air and rendering the
drive useless.
One was surely working but in case of the second
one I'm not so sure.

Well neither of them will now if you took them apart!
Anyway, after dismantling the controller cards
and then getting inside the drives I also managed to remove the plates
being very careful all the time.

Well that's definitely screwed them then!
Then, once I connected the controller
cards back I was trying to connect the disks to my laptop via USB
connector.

Waste of time - you already broke them!
The green diode on the connector indicated that a device is
connected

No - it just indicates the presence of the circuit board - that should not
have been damaged by the experience!
but the electric motor of the hard disk wasn't moving at
all. I did the same with the second disk and in this case the motor,
for a while was making small jumpy movements and than stopped. When I
tried to help it a bit ;-) it started again, changing the direction of
the movement this time. Eventually, within 2 or 3 seconds it stopped.
Can anyone tell me why the motor refused to work?

What does it matter - you will never be able to get the platters to line up
with the heads again and if you do, you won't be able to read anything
because you opened the case and let the world in!
 
J

Joel

GT said:
Immediately introducing dust and moisture from the air and rendering the
drive useless.

I think you are thinking too hightly of how hard drive works. In early
70's I was working for manufacture that made hard drive, and we always had
around dozen hard drives running naked 24/7 with no cases. Of course they
were running in clean-room (101?), and we all wore white suite with hood to
cover hair and mouth, or the only thing not cover were the eyes.
 
G

GT

GT said:
Immediately introducing dust and moisture from the air and rendering the
drive useless.

I think you are thinking too hightly of how hard drive works. In early
70's I was working for manufacture that made hard drive, and we always had
around dozen hard drives running naked 24/7 with no cases. Of course they
were running in clean-room (101?), and we all wore white suite with hood to
cover hair and mouth, or the only thing not cover were the eyes.

Same conditions would be required now and I don't think the OP has them!
 
Y

yaro137

I think you are thinking too hightly of how hard drive works. In early
70's I was working for manufacture that made hard drive, and we always had
around dozen hard drives running naked 24/7 with no cases. Of course they
were running in clean-room (101?), and we all wore white suite with hood to
cover hair and mouth, or the only thing not cover were the eyes.


I think so too. I would be very surprised to find out that one can
render a hard
drive useless by just opening the case. Even though I could let some
dust in
it would only potentially affect the area where it thought the plate
and only if
the particular dust particle carried enough charge to demagnetize the
area it
fell onto. Still however the drive itself should be working fine. Of
course with time
and I don't believe we're talking minutes or even hours here the
information stored
on the plate would get unreadable, but it should not affect the motor
or any other
parts that easily. They don't really look so fragile if you look at
them. Maybe with
the exception of the tip of the r/w head.
 
G

GT

I think so too. I would be very surprised to find out that one can
render a hard
drive useless by just opening the case.

That's why they are sealed - to stop you opening the case!
Even though I could let some
dust in
it would only potentially affect the area where it thought the plate
and only if
the particular dust particle carried enough charge to demagnetize the
area it
fell onto. Still however the drive itself should be working fine. Of
course with time
and I don't believe we're talking minutes or even hours here the
information stored
on the plate would get unreadable,

Well, how long do you think the moisture and dirt in the air would take to
damage the few microns of iron on the drive surface? A grain of dust is
about the size of a house compared to a small frozen pea that is a 'bit' on
the drive. It doesn't matter how dense and strong the pea is, the house
landing on it is going to cause damage - especially as the drive spins as
fast a car engine at the red line!
but it should not affect the motor
or any other
parts that easily. They don't really look so fragile if you look at
them. Maybe with
the exception of the tip of the r/w head.

Can't comment on drive motors, I just know that taking drives apart is not a
good idea - perhaps you didn't get the platter back in exactly the right
place (we're talking microns) on the spindle, making the gap between platter
and head wrong and an automatic safety mechanism prevented the motor
spinning?
 
V

Vanguard

I think so too. I would be very surprised to find out that one can
render a hard
drive useless by just opening the case. Even though I could let some
dust in
it would only potentially affect the area where it thought the plate
and only if
the particular dust particle carried enough charge to demagnetize
the
area it
fell onto. Still however the drive itself should be working fine. Of
course with time
and I don't believe we're talking minutes or even hours here the
information stored
on the plate would get unreadable, but it should not affect the
motor
or any other
parts that easily. They don't really look so fragile if you look at
them. Maybe with
the exception of the tip of the r/w head.


"after dismantling the controller cards
and then getting inside the drives I also managed to remove the plates
being very careful all the time."

So what did that mean? You already said that you dismantled the
casing to get inside. So are the "plates" really the platters? If
you removed them then the low-level formatting marks will never line
up again (because you don't have the equipment). I can just see you
dragging the platters across the heads. So what good is the drive if
you removed the platters? Why remove them if you then put them back
in? You think you could really torque the mountings for the platters
to avoid uneven stress across the platters to avoid warp?

So what anti-static precautions did you take while cannibalizing your
hard drive? Just because the logic for the bus is still working well
enough to give you a green LED lighted up doesn't mean the rest of the
circuitry survived your touch. Sometimes one of the voltage
regulators chips blows if the drive doesn't spin up (which is what
happened to you) which means that PCB won't ever work again (since you
can't get the part and couldn't do the surface soldering, anyway).

If you're so enamored with the very boring mechanical operation of a
hard drive then buy one with a window. I remember seeing one, at a
price premium, that replaced a case cover with a window (might've been
a Seagate drive but not sure since I have no need to become brain
numbed watching platters spin and an actuator arm flick back and
forth).
 
E

ElJerid

Vanguard said:
"after dismantling the controller cards
and then getting inside the drives I also managed to remove the plates
being very careful all the time."

So what did that mean? You already said that you dismantled the casing to
get inside. So are the "plates" really the platters? If you removed them
then the low-level formatting marks will never line up again (because you
don't have the equipment). I can just see you dragging the platters
across the heads. So what good is the drive if you removed the platters?
Why remove them if you then put them back in? You think you could really
torque the mountings for the platters to avoid uneven stress across the
platters to avoid warp?

So what anti-static precautions did you take while cannibalizing your hard
drive? Just because the logic for the bus is still working well enough to
give you a green LED lighted up doesn't mean the rest of the circuitry
survived your touch. Sometimes one of the voltage regulators chips blows
if the drive doesn't spin up (which is what happened to you) which means
that PCB won't ever work again (since you can't get the part and couldn't
do the surface soldering, anyway).

If you're so enamored with the very boring mechanical operation of a hard
drive then buy one with a window. I remember seeing one, at a price
premium, that replaced a case cover with a window (might've been a Seagate
drive but not sure since I have no need to become brain numbed watching
platters spin and an actuator arm flick back and forth).

This was a long discussion to conclude that you must be really crazy (sorry
for that) to hope that a HD will still work fine after opening it, and even
a lot more after dismanteling the platter(s). I would suggest next time to
try to see how a cpu is build inside...
 
S

sandy58

Well, I did and there is something that bothers me. I opened 2 old
laptop hard disks. One was surely working but in case of the second
one I'm not so sure. Anyway, after dismantling the controller cards
and then getting inside the drives I also managed to remove the plates
being very careful all the time. Then, once I connected the controller
cards back I was trying to connect the disks to my laptop via USB
connector. The green diode on the connector indicated that a device is
connected but the electric motor of the hard disk wasn't moving at
all. I did the same with the second disk and in this case the motor,
for a while was making small jumpy movements and than stopped. When I
tried to help it a bit ;-) it started again, changing the direction of
the movement this time. Eventually, within 2 or 3 seconds it stopped.
Can anyone tell me why the motor refused to work?
yaro

Have a look here, yaro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Disk
 
J

Joel

sandy58 said:

Yup! they look like the ones on the right when I was working, and when
they started making 5-1/4 hard drive. Before that we started with somewhere
around 40-42" (I can't remember but we made a small round table out some
rejected ones), then 28", 25", 14", 12", 8", 5" when I retired (somewherein
between or not exact number) and they stacked like 5-10+ discs like the
photo on the right.
 
Y

yaro137

Ok, so I should probably start with explaining why I opened them at
all.
Surely not to just break them apart and then put together expecting
they
will work as nothing never happened. As to anti-static precautions
that
Vanguard mentioned I always use the wrist-strap when getting close
to electronics. Back to the reason, as the drives were of no use for
me
anyway I was just hoping to be able to dismantle them and see how the
platter spins and the head tries to find the MBR. Simple curiosity. I
removed
the platter when it turned up that it isn't spinning at all to look
for any indications
of the reason for that. Obviously I'd never do something like that if
I needed
these disks. It was quite interesting though to find out, thanks to
Vanguard that
there are some low-level formatting marks that need to be lined up.
However, I still
don't know why the motor (platter removed) wasn't moving at all in
case of one
of the drives and in case of the other was making small jumpy
movements.
And BTW don't you guys and I'm talking to thous of you who never seen
an open
hard drive were ever thinking of actually getting inside one? For some
people
the theory not always is enough. If it was so, the word "impossible"
would really
mean impossible instead of "quite difficult" ;-)
yaro
 
K

kony

Well, I did and there is something that bothers me. I opened 2 old
laptop hard disks. One was surely working but in case of the second
one I'm not so sure. Anyway, after dismantling the controller cards
and then getting inside the drives I also managed to remove the plates
being very careful all the time. Then, once I connected the controller
cards back I was trying to connect the disks to my laptop via USB
connector. The green diode on the connector indicated that a device is
connected but the electric motor of the hard disk wasn't moving at
all. I did the same with the second disk and in this case the motor,
for a while was making small jumpy movements and than stopped. When I
tried to help it a bit ;-) it started again, changing the direction of
the movement this time. Eventually, within 2 or 3 seconds it stopped.
Can anyone tell me why the motor refused to work?
yaro


I suspect that after removing the controller card and
reinstalling, you no longer had an electrical connection to
the motor.
 
C

CBFalconer

GT said:
.... snip ...

Well, how long do you think the moisture and dirt in the air would
take to damage the few microns of iron on the drive surface? A
grain of dust is about the size of a house compared to a small
frozen pea that is a 'bit' on the drive. It doesn't matter how
dense and strong the pea is, the house landing on it is going to
cause damage - especially as the drive spins as fast a car engine
at the red line!

The automobile engine isn't damaged by RPM, but by wear caused by
the linear piston speed, which in turn depends on bore and stroke
(and rpm). The magic number is roughly 2500 ft/sec. Cruising
speed is usually well below this, and so continuous operation above
about 3000 rpm is rare. Most automobile engines will last a long
time below about 4500 rpm. For contrast, the HD is operating at
7500 rpm day in and day out.
 
C

CBFalconer

Vanguard said:
.... snip ...

If you're so enamored with the very boring mechanical operation
of a hard drive then buy one with a window. I remember seeing
one, at a price premium, that replaced a case cover with a window
(might've been a Seagate drive but not sure since I have no need
to become brain numbed watching platters spin and an actuator arm
flick back and forth).

In the old days (Say '75 or so) the drives had 24 inch disks, stood
in a stand about 3 feet high and had definite visibility (and cores
could be exchanged). In use, the whole rig tended to walk across
the floor. A big one held about 10 megabytes. Access time was in
the order of 75 millisecs.
 
Y

yaro137

I suspect that after removing the controller card and
reinstalling, you no longer had an electrical connection to
the motor.

Nope, they are not soldered but only connected by copper pins.
 
K

kony

Nope, they are not soldered but only connected by copper pins.


AFAIK, none of them have soldered on boards, I meant that
after removal some of these may not make such good contact
anymore if the board had been flexed, had some residue
buildup over time, was not positioned as precisely as it was
at the factory.
 
V

Vanguard

in message
This was a long discussion to conclude that you must be really crazy
(sorry for that) to hope that a HD will still work fine after
opening it, and even a lot more after dismanteling the platter(s). I
would suggest next time to try to see how a cpu is build inside...


I wasn't the dismantling a hard drive.
 
V

Vanguard

As to anti-static precautions that
Vanguard mentioned I always use the wrist-strap when getting close
to electronics.

If the wrist strap is attached to the computer case, make sure to
leave the power cord connected since that's how you get grounded.
Then unplug the 20/24-pin PSU connector to the motherboard to ensure
the 5V standby line isn't still powering the PS-ON circuitry on the
motherboard.
I removed the platter when it turned up that it isn't spinning at
all to look for any indications of the reason for that. However,
I still don't know why the motor (platter removed) wasn't moving at
all in
case of one of the drives and in case of the other was making small
jumpy movements.

The motor is very weak. It has very little torque. It is meant to
keep the platters spinning and sucks in much more current when having
to first start up (which it does slowly and why it sounds like a jet
engine winding up). If the platters don't spin then that surge
current remains high and damages the motor and/or the PCB logic. All
motors suck in more current when they first start turning (and
especially if they don't turn at all) but hard drive motors are very
weak. The motor in your dryer has far more startup torque in
comparison to the weight on the load on that motor than does a hard
drive motor which has very little startup torque.

Since the platters didn't spin, that's why I mentioned that a voltage
regulator chip (about the size of 2 pinheads) probably blew and the
motor will never spin up again. On the PCBs that I've worked on,
there are 3 voltage regulator chips usually at the backside of the PCB
(away from the connector end). They're so small that seeing one blown
out is hard by the naked eye. I saw it by using a magnifying glass
and noticing a bit of shiny substrate where there should've been a
ceramic covering, and then looking very carefully underneath to notice
a carbon mark.

This was a drive with some wanted data (the user, of course, never did
backups) so I found someone still selling the same brand and model of
the really old hard drive (which was pricey by comparison with other
current drives of larger capacity) that *looked* like it had the same
PCB on it. I swapped the PCB, the platters now spun up but I still
couldn't read from it. That's because the logic timing of the PCB has
to be tuned to the hardware drive mechanism. The user still has the
old hard drive but hasn't yet bothered sending it in to a recovery lab
to pay the $1500 because the data really isn't that valuable - yet.
She figures when she wins the lottery then she'll have the data
recovered.

Before dismantling the hard drives, and before they went dead (i.e.,
stopped spinning or for whatever reason they were no longer usable),
did you check how hot they were running when the platters used to
spin? Could be the bearing(s) got worn so there was a lot of heat.
Components expand with heat which can either loosen up or sieze up the
parts. I had one hard drive that go so hot that you could cook eggs
on it (it would actually burn your arm) but it would keep spinning.
When stopped and cooled down, the platters wouldn't spin up until I
gave it a sharp but light rap with a metal hammer (my knuckles were
too soft). That drive actually had a plasticky coating used to
prevent the heads from scrapping on the rust (oxide) on the platter.
Because the drive got so hot, when the platters stopped turning, the
heads would settle on the plasticky surface (I think its the epoxy
they use with the rust to adhere to the substrate). With the high
heat, tiny divits impossible to see would form due to the pressure of
the heads and the high heat making the surface coating more pliant.
The motor was too weak for its torque to get the heads out of the
divits unless I rapped the drive to giggle them out. It was a
portable drive and built for industrial use so the PCB regulators
didn't blow (you'd actually hear some clicking noises as the motor
tried to start turning and then cut off to cool down the motor from
the surge current, and retry this cycle a few times).
It was quite interesting though to find out, thanks to
Vanguard that
there are some low-level formatting marks that need to be lined up.

That is why no one anymore does a true low-level format of a hard
drive because it will render it useless. At one time, hard drives
came with a label of defective spots and users could do a low-level
format and reenter this data. The PCB and heads are too weak to
determine the bad spots reliably and why special equipment is used to
detect and mask them out. At some point maybe around 15 years ago
(I'm guessing), and due to too many users ****ing over their hard
drives with low-level formats, the HD makers decided to pre-low-level
format so now you only do high-level formatting. There was a
transition period, however, where many users still thought they could
do low-level formatting which resulted in dead drives. I recall using
SpinRite back then because it was probably the only tool around (or
that I knew) that could non-destructively low-level format a hard
drive. I wouldn't recommend anything else nowadays, but then
low-level formatting is rarely required (the actuator and heads don't
usually get that much out of alignment), and by then it is often
cheaper to grab the data and replace the drive. Here is a quote from
SpinRite:

"No software of any sort can truly low-level format today's modern
drives. The ability to low-level format hard drives was lost back in
the early 1990's when disc surfaces began incorporating factory
written "embedded servo data". If you have a very old drive that can
truly be low-level reformatted, SpinRite v5.0 will do that for you
(which all v6.0 owners are welcome to download and run anytime). But
this is only possible on very old non-servo based MFM and RLL drives
with capacities up to a few hundred megabytes."

When users speak of formatting a hard drive, they are doing a
high-level, logical format, not a low-level physical format. As I
recall (I haven't used SpinRite in over a decade), it was possible to
realign the heads/actuator if the worst case for one of the heads was
less than half the width of a track out of alignment. You couldn't
manually replace the platters and ever hope to get with that level of
alignment. Read:

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/geom/formatLow-c.html
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/geom/formatHigh-c.html

Once IDE showed up which moved the controller onto the PCB on the hard
drive, you couldn't low-level format anymore. With the really old
drives, low-level formating wiped out the defective sectors that the
manufacturer's equipment was best at detecting (and why the drives had
a table printed on it of what the manufacturer found). Read:

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/geom/formatHigh-c.html

You aren't using those old drives. You only do high-level
formatting - but that is performed on an assembled hard drive. Before
you get it, the manufacturer still has to do the low-level formatting.
You won't be able to disassemble and reassemble a hard drive so that
all the low-level formatting is still usable.
 
Y

yaro137

You aren't using those old drives. You only do high-level
formatting - but that is performed on an assembled hard drive. Before
you get it, the manufacturer still has to do the low-level formatting.
You won't be able to disassemble and reassemble a hard drive so that
all the low-level formatting is still usable.

Well, now that's plenty of valuable information. Thanks a lot.
yaro
 
V

Vanguard

In the old days (Say '75 or so) the drives had 24 inch disks, stood
in a stand about 3 feet high and had definite visibility (and cores
could be exchanged). In use, the whole rig tended to walk across
the floor. A big one held about 10 megabytes. Access time was in
the order of 75 millisecs.

I was born when the IBM RAMAC 305 came out so it was still awhile
before I got into computing. When I showed up, hard drives had
removable disk packs. The physical design of those old disk packs
were far more loose than today. The first ones that I remember using
were like the IBM 3330 with a plastic shell within which were held the
platters on the spindle that you locked down and then removed the
shell (i.e., the removable disk pack; see pictures at
http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zvse/about/history1970s.html
and
http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/events/anniversaries/40th/images/unclassified2/print03.html).
Because they weren't sealed is why they had to be serviceable and why
backups to tape were mandatory and performed daily. Back then, you
also had memory units or memory cores the size of 4 washing machines
stacked 2x2 which used magnetic donuts with 3 wires going through
them, so you could see the memory (see picture at
http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/events/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/21.html).

Anyone today taking apart a memory chip knows they are destroying it.
Same for today's hard drives. You also used to be able to drive cars
into trees and only dent the fender a bit although the passengers
didn't fare as well. Now we have cars with crumple zones to let the
car take the brunt of the impact instead of the passengers. Things
change. No, they don't build them like they used to ... thank god!
 

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