Defrag Query

M

Michael Shergold

Defrag in the old days used to run for a while and move fragmented files up
in the DriveSpace temporarily, then move unfragmented data down so that
most of free space ended up at the top. It would then collect all the
fragmented files and putting them (unfragmented) either within the
contiguous file area (if it could find) space or in the next free space
are.. Using the current XP diagram this meant that generally the left had
side was solid blue except for locked and unmoveable files like paging
areas. and the right hand side would hopefully be contiguous white (free
drivespace)

Now the thing mucks around for a while and moves some data into the blue
area but still leaves many fragmented clusters and lots of spaces. If you
run 'analyse' again immediately afterward it tells you that the drive needs
deframenting. Is it giving up before it has really finished? Or what is
happening here?

Michael
 
S

smlunatick

Defrag in the old days used to run for a while and move fragmented files up
in the DriveSpace temporarily, then move unfragmented data down so that
most of free space ended up at the top. It would then collect all the
fragmented files and putting them (unfragmented) either within the
contiguous file area (if it could find) space or in the next free space
are..  Using the current XP diagram this meant that generally the left had
side was solid blue except for locked and unmoveable files like paging
areas. and the right hand side would hopefully be contiguous white (free
drivespace)

Now the thing mucks around for a while and moves some data into the blue
area but still leaves many fragmented clusters and lots of spaces.  If you
run 'analyse' again immediately afterward it tells you that the drive needs
deframenting.  Is it giving up before it has really finished?   Or what is
happening here?

Michael

Microsoft's defrag is still a "lamed" version of someone elses better
defrag tool. You should be looking the a better tools.
 
T

thecreator

Hi Michael,

If you are finding that the Hard Drive needs to be defrag again, after
running it, I would advise you to download your Hard Drive's Manufacturer's
Tools for testing the Hard Drive. It might be failing.
 
M

Michael Shergold

Defrag in the old days used to run for a while and move fragmented files
up
in the DriveSpace temporarily, then move unfragmented data down so that
most of free space ended up at the top. It would then collect all the
fragmented files and putting them (unfragmented) either within the
contiguous file area (if it could find) space or in the next free space
are.. Using the current XP diagram this meant that generally the left had
side was solid blue except for locked and unmoveable files like paging
areas. and the right hand side would hopefully be contiguous white (free
drivespace)

Now the thing mucks around for a while and moves some data into the blue
area but still leaves many fragmented clusters and lots of spaces. If you
run 'analyse' again immediately afterward it tells you that the drive
needs
deframenting. Is it giving up before it has really finished? Or what is
happening here?

Michael

Microsoft's defrag is still a "lamed" version of someone elses better
defrag tool. You should be looking the a better tools.

Why should it be lamed? 'Hardly in anyone's interest!
What do you recommend? I used O&O defrag offline i.e running in DOS mode
at boot. And then tried the MS XP defrag again with virtually the same
results as before..What I can't understand is why after a full defrag it
seems to think it still need de-fragging. Why pay for an expensive defrag
product that has lots of options but seems to achieve very little extra?
Michael
 
B

bojimbo26one

Have you tried JKDefrag ?



Microsoft's defrag is still a "lamed" version of someone elses better
defrag tool. You should be looking the a better tools.

Why should it be lamed? 'Hardly in anyone's interest!
What do you recommend? I used O&O defrag offline i.e running in DOS mode
at boot. And then tried the MS XP defrag again with virtually the same
results as before..What I can't understand is why after a full defrag it
seems to think it still need de-fragging. Why pay for an expensive defrag
product that has lots of options but seems to achieve very little extra?
Michael
 
U

Unknown

Be sure to shut down everything before defragging. Active programs cannot
be defragged.
 
M

Michael Shergold

Thanks for the tip,, I'm giving JKDefrag a try.. Not pretty, but seems to
know what it's all about!! More my style.
Thks
 
T

Twayne

Michael Shergold said:
Defrag in the old days used to run for a while and move fragmented
files up in the DriveSpace temporarily, then move unfragmented data
down so that most of free space ended up at the top. It would then
collect all the fragmented files and putting them (unfragmented)
either within the contiguous file area (if it could find) space or in
the next free space are.. Using the current XP diagram this meant
that generally the left had side was solid blue except for locked and
unmoveable files like paging areas. and the right hand side would
hopefully be contiguous white (free drivespace)

Now the thing mucks around for a while and moves some data into the
blue area but still leaves many fragmented clusters and lots of
spaces. If you run 'analyse' again immediately afterward it tells
you that the drive needs deframenting. Is it giving up before it has
really finished? Or what is happening here?

Michael

It is possible that defrag might need to be run twice or three times to
completely defrag the disk IFF fragmentation had gotten high, but it's
the exception rather than the norm. If you're running editing video
movies or running highly intensive math applications, then fragmentation
can occur very quickly (as in one session) but if you're only running
"standard" applications, then fragementation shouldn't be much of an
issue once it's been completely defragged at least once and then monthly
or whatever schedule you choose. Monthly is a good starting point. The
more often you defrage the less time it requires each time.

If a second, and especially a third, defrag doesn't bring the
fragmentation under control then there is somethine seriously wrong
somewhere; malware or a problem with the drive.
Computer speed?
How much RAM?
Drive size? Mfg? File System Type?
How much space is left on the drive? It has to be >15 % or so,
including accounting for the page file, restore points, etc. Low disk
space can reall trash the defrag process.
How long since you last defragged?
What was the amount of fragmentation?
What is the fragmentation after running defrag?
How about after running it again?

Assuming your data is backed up, try running chkdsk on the drive in
question using chkdsk /r the "r" means to repair bad stuff if it can.
You might simply have frogged up file tables.

Does chkdsk find any bad sectors? If so, is that the same number it
found last time, or a larger number? Increasing number of bad sectors
indicates a failing drive.

Your disk Mfr should have a free tester to determine the health of your
hard drive. If you have any bad sectors, you should run that tester.

I say make sure you back up because if the disk is having problems,
chkdsk can uncover the problem but at the same time, in the extreme, it
can make the disk unaccessible. So, back up your data, emails,
favorites, etc., before you do much of anything else, just in case the
drive is going bad.

As you can guess, lots of things can affect it.

When I'm doing video editing, I defrag every day when I first start
the machine or before I shut it down, whichever is most convenient. But
if I'm only using Office, VB, e-mail and surfing, then once a month is
plenty often enough for defrags, at least until/unless you know it
should be more often or could wait longer. At one month it usually says
I don't have to but I do anyway, because in another week it'll hit the
threshold and tell me I need to defrag. Only use the Analyze function
to ask whether it needs to be defragged or not; you can not tell from
the graphic display.

Post back with that data and let's see if we can tell what's going on.

HTH

Twayne
 
M

Michael Shergold

Twayne said:
It is possible that defrag might need to be run twice or three times to
completely defrag the disk IFF fragmentation had gotten high, but it's
the exception rather than the norm. If you're running editing video
movies or running highly intensive math applications, then fragmentation
can occur very quickly (as in one session) but if you're only running
"standard" applications, then fragementation shouldn't be much of an
issue once it's been completely defragged at least once and then monthly
or whatever schedule you choose. Monthly is a good starting point. The
more often you defrage the less time it requires each time.

If a second, and especially a third, defrag doesn't bring the
fragmentation under control then there is somethine seriously wrong
somewhere; malware or a problem with the drive.
Computer speed?
How much RAM?
Drive size? Mfg? File System Type?
How much space is left on the drive? It has to be >15 % or so,
including accounting for the page file, restore points, etc. Low disk
space can reall trash the defrag process.
How long since you last defragged?
What was the amount of fragmentation?
What is the fragmentation after running defrag?
How about after running it again?

Assuming your data is backed up, try running chkdsk on the drive in
question using chkdsk /r the "r" means to repair bad stuff if it can.
You might simply have frogged up file tables.

Does chkdsk find any bad sectors? If so, is that the same number it
found last time, or a larger number? Increasing number of bad sectors
indicates a failing drive.

Your disk Mfr should have a free tester to determine the health of your
hard drive. If you have any bad sectors, you should run that tester.

I say make sure you back up because if the disk is having problems,
chkdsk can uncover the problem but at the same time, in the extreme, it
can make the disk unaccessible. So, back up your data, emails,
favorites, etc., before you do much of anything else, just in case the
drive is going bad.

As you can guess, lots of things can affect it.

When I'm doing video editing, I defrag every day when I first start the
machine or before I shut it down, whichever is most convenient. But if
I'm only using Office, VB, e-mail and surfing, then once a month is
plenty often enough for defrags, at least until/unless you know it should
be more often or could wait longer. At one month it usually says I don't
have to but I do anyway, because in another week it'll hit the threshold
and tell me I need to defrag. Only use the Analyze function to ask
whether it needs to be defragged or not; you can not tell from the
graphic display.

Post back with that data and let's see if we can tell what's going on.

HTH

Twayne

Twayne, Thanks for your reply but it doesn't really answer the question,
which was what was the MS De-fragger really doing.
There should be a lot more either help or suggestions there to stop people
wasting there time by using it.
For example to defrag properly you need to close down as many other tasks
as possible and probably turn off hibernation and restore activity etc..
If it does any degree of optimisation then it would be nice to know how or
what it is doing.
In fact if you follow back on this thread you will notice that I have tried
several other de-fraggers since last week.
I've been working in engineering with hard-disks since 1960, so I think I
now understand what is happening.
In fact I just tried MSDF analyse on this XP disk and it still says it
needs defragging.
I don't have any hardware problems on either of my two hard disks on this
machine or on the hard disks on my Win98 machine and our XP laptop (touch
wood!!!)
thanks again
take care
Michael
 
S

Swifty

Twayne, Thanks for your reply but it doesn't really answer the question,
which was what was the MS De-fragger really doing.

Oh, that bit is simple. The MS defragger is a FILE defragger. You end up
with files that individually are contiguous on the disk. It make no (or
little) attempt to move the files so that the files are physically close
to each other (or the free space is contiguous, same result).

So it is happy to have some of your files at one end of the disk, with
other files in the middle, and some at the far end, as long as none of
the individual files are themselves fragmented across the disk.
 
S

sareth

My 2 Yen:

If the MS defragger is saying that it needs to defrag again just after
a defrag, then it's probably because it could not defragment some
larger files due to lack of sufficient disk space, or it could not (and
cannot) defrag the MFT and/or paging file. For the MFT you'll need one
of the payware defraggers that run a boot defrag; I do no know of any
free defragger that will do the job. Also, sometimes, it takes multiple
passes to defrag a drive fully, with any manual defragger.

But manually defragging doesn't make much sense these days with
ridiculously large HDDs and large files. The PC gets tied down for too
long especially when defragging 2 or 3 large drives. The trend is
towards auto defrag, which allows you to use the PC as you would
normally while the drives get defragged in the background whenever
there are free sysem resources. This is especially relevant in labs,
schools, offices etc where auto defrag reduces the workload of the
admin compared to manual or scheduled defrag of a few tens to hundreds
of workstations. It's a convenient solution for the home user too who
doesnt have to deal with defrag again.
 
T

Twayne

Well, to me it seems like I answered what you asked, but if that's not
it I guess I erred because your question wasn't clear enough to me.
Is Swifty's response what you were looking for? If not, then I guess
some clarification is in order.

If you're looking for info on the internals of defrag, MS has several
good articles on that.

Twyne
 
M

Michael Shergold

sareth said:
My 2 Yen:
If the MS defragger is saying that it needs to defrag again just after
a defrag, then it's probably because it could not defragment some
larger files due to lack of sufficient disk space, or it could not (and
cannot) defrag the MFT and/or paging file. For the MFT you'll need one
of the payware defraggers that run a boot defrag; I do no know of any
free defragger that will do the job. Also, sometimes, it takes multiple
passes to defrag a drive fully, with any manual defragger.

But manually defragging doesn't make much sense these days with
ridiculously large HDDs and large files. The PC gets tied down for too
long especially when defragging 2 or 3 large drives. The trend is
towards auto defrag, which allows you to use the PC as you would
normally while the drives get defragged in the background whenever
there are free sysem resources. This is especially relevant in labs,
schools, offices etc where auto defrag reduces the workload of the
admin compared to manual or scheduled defrag of a few tens to hundreds
of workstations. It's a convenient solution for the home user too who
doesnt have to deal with defrag again.
sareth

I think the main reason why it is never satisfied is because it is a
partition files defragger and in my particular case this partition
contains all the Windows XP operating system components and very little
else although it has 25% free space.. This means that under normal usage a
huge number of fragmented clusters are locked and cannot be defragged.
As I mentioned I am a bit of an old-timer and since I downsized to PCs have
always organised my PCs in three partitions
C for the system, D for my Data and E for Executables. I keep offline
copies CDisk, DDIsk and Edisk which makes any recovery fairly simple..
Currently my C partition is 20G but only 14G is used.but of course contains
Page.sys and hiberfil etc. and all the restore stuff.
Just to confuse the issue last year I added a larger faster drive which
became I,J & K.. XP was reinstalled on I using dualboot but I left all the
executables on E which is now the slowest access partition. J and K are
used as temporary area for media manipulation. G & H are writable CD and
DVD drives.
What really prompted this exercise was that I noticed that 'Add and Restore
Programs' was taking longer and longer to populate the "list" but I guess
that is a result of keeping most of them in partition E even though the
Program Files folder is on I: and I guess it pops to the far end of that
disk to make sure the program is really where is thinks it is.

Next upgrade I must re-sort it all out and keep things simpler.
Anyway thanks for the 2 yens worth!
take care
Michael
 

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