CSS?

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Using CSS, your pages will NOT look right in all browsers, as all browsers currently in use do not
support CSS fully or at all. It is not the point of learning CSS, it is the implementation (trying
to make sure that it works cross browser, etc.) that is time consuming. I don't want to have to be
concerned about what browser / platform a site visitor might be using. If I use CSS, then I have to
be concerned, which means more time and effort.

I disagree that a browser loads a CSS page faster than a standard HTML page, minus images and other
external content. Unless using inline/embedded CSS, the browser must reference another file for each
page loaded, even if the file is in memory it still take time, especially the first page accessed on
a site. With plain HTML the browser has all of the information needed render the page. Same applies
to external JavaScript files.

Bottom-line, CSS is just another technology that can be used or not used, and I choose to not use it
for much. I get the same basic benefits with ASP/VBScript without the cross browser / platform
issues of using CSS.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Murray]

I disagree that a browser loads a CSS page faster than a standard HTML

page, minus images and other external content. Unless using
inline/embedded CSS, the browser must reference another file for each page
loaded, even if the file is in memory it still take time, especially the
first page accessed on a site. With plain HTML the browser has all of the
information needed render the page. Same applies to external JavaScript
files.

Check my site and measure the load time. Rebuild it with tables and measure
the load time. I guarantee you that even though I have an external CSS file
to download, it will load faster in its current state than with table code
filling the page. But the real benefit is on the next and subsequent page.
Since all presentation is now cached in the form of CSS files, those
subsquent pages load in a flash. You just can't get this with tables.

With regard to older browsers, if you are worried about NN2 and IE2, then
your font sizes are the least of your problems, since (as I recall) js
support wasn't good until v3+ browsers came along. Personally, I don't know
anyone who is serious about supporting such antique browsers. I do know
lots of people who spend quite a bit of time making sure that all v4+
browsers are supported on all platforms, and I believe that is the right way
to go. If my evaluation of the sites I see posted here is correct, there is
nobody here who should be worrying about anything less than v4.

Bottom-line, CSS is just another technology that can be used or not used,
and I choose to not use it for much. I get the same basic benefits with
ASP/VBScript without the cross browser / platform issues of using CSS.

It's not really likely. Honestly. CSS can do lots that you would have to
stand on your head to do. Like a first line indent, for example. Or a
non-tiling background image. Or positioning. But I don't want to argue
really. CSS will only benefit those who are willing to take the time to
learn it. If you are not, then it will not help you much.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that everyone must use CSS. I am
saying that one should not allow the notion that it's not well supported to
get in their way. Nearly all of CSS1 is supported by >95 % of the browsers
currently in use on the web. I am also saying that (I believe) the time and
effort spent familiarizing onesself with CSS will be repaid in pages that
are easier to maintain, and faster to load.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

See inline

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Check my site and measure the load time. Rebuild it with tables and measure the load time. I
guarantee you that even though I have an external CSS file to download, it will load faster in its
current state than with table code filling the page. But the real benefit is on the next and
subsequent page. Since all presentation is now cached in the form of CSS files, those subsquent
pages load in a flash. You just can't get this with tables.

With regard to older browsers, if you are worried about NN2 and IE2, then your font sizes are the
least of your problems, since (as I recall) js support wasn't good until v3+ browsers came along.
Personally, I don't know anyone who is serious about supporting such antique browsers. I do know
lots of people who spend quite a bit of time making sure that all v4+ browsers are supported on
all platforms, and I believe that is the right way to go. If my evaluation of the sites I see
posted here is correct, there is nobody here who should be worrying about anything less than v4.

I have client sites that show visitors are using older browsers. Anyone that is developing a
business or e-commerece web site should be concerned. Since I don't use CSS, I avoid having to spend
time worrying about CSS issues in older browsers, as I know they will not have a problem.

It's not really likely. Honestly. CSS can do lots that you would have to stand on your head to
do. Like a first line indent, for example. Or a non-tiling background image. Or positioning.
But I don't want to argue really. CSS will only benefit those who are willing to take the time to
learn it. If you are not, then it will not help you much.

Has nothing to do with learning, I design sites that do not have a need for any of the items you
have mentioned above.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that everyone must use CSS. I am saying that one should not
allow the notion that it's not well supported to get in their way. Nearly all of CSS1 is
supported by >95 % of the browsers currently in use on the web. I am also saying that (I believe)
the time and effort spent familiarizing onesself with CSS will be repaid in pages that are easier
to maintain, and faster to load.

My pages are easy to maintain and load fast as well, considering most are database driven.

I don't see this as arguing, just a nice friendly exchange of thoughts on the subject of CSS.

BTW: I do have a project where I used CSS for fonts and layout and one of these days, I will remove

 

[Murray]

LOL - a plague on you!

 

[John]

Anyone not using CSS is crazy! Same as templates and if FP has them like DW, library
items. Life is so much easier when you change make change to only one thing instead of
EVERY page. Now that just does not make sense to me!

I have to concur. If someone is using an old browser that
doesn't support CSS, it's time for a little update called Firefox !

Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

 

[John]

CSS CAN cause problems in NN4x.

Which is now 9 years old ? Yeah I bet that IE 2.0 has a real
problem with CSS as well. Come to think of it IE 2.0 had quite a few
problems.


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

 

[John]

Using CSS, your pages will NOT look right in all browsers, as all browsers currently in use do not
support CSS fully or at all.

Just to clarify "currently in use" does not mean currently
available. IE has supported the full implementation of CSS since IE5
which was released on 4.12.99. Unfortunately AOL bought Netscape and
stalled the development of a supporting browser until November of
2001. The funny thing is that Opera had already beat both out when
they had release 3.5 in November of '98. Frankly if someone's still
using IE4.X, NS4.X, Opera 2.X or some other piece of antiquity they
might as well be using Lynx.

I like your solution of using VB script but frankly it's much,
much easier to create a few style sheets that can easily be updated in
Notepad rather than have to learn ASP.

Lastly, don't ASP and VB-based engines have to run MS based
servers ?

Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

 

[John]

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that everyone must use CSS. I am
saying that one should not allow the notion that it's not well supported to
get in their way. Nearly all of CSS1 is supported by >95 % of the browsers
currently in use on the web. I am also saying that (I believe) the time and
effort spent familiarizing onesself with CSS will be repaid in pages that
are easier to maintain, and faster to load.

I strongly agree. It simply works and do so quickly and
easily.


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Just to clarify: Your information is out of date. IE 5 does NOT support CSS
2.0 much at all. Netscape 6 does.
See:

http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/supportkey/syntax.htm

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Like I indicated, I don't care what graphical browser a user is using, I want them to see the site
basically like everyone else, and that is not possible using a lot of the CSS functions, so I see no
reason to use CSS.

ASP can be run on Unix/Linux server using ChiliSoft ASP or similar application, just that you can't
use a Access Database, but my method would work via a single include (SSI) page. It can also be done
with any server-side scripting language. ASP and Windows IIS happens to be what I use for all my
projects.

Here is a short example of code that I use:

<%
Plink = "#000099" ' Hyperlink color
Pvlink = "#000099" ' Visited Hyperlink color
Palink = "#000099" ' Active Hyperlink Color
Accent = "#4A4DC6" ' This is cell background color
CheckOut = "#2C60B6" ' This is cell background color
Backgrd = "#21498C" ' Page background color
Font1 = "Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" ' Specify Fonts
ExtLink1 = "http://www.microsoft.com/" ' hyperlink to site or page, etc.
DateNow = Date() ' Display Current date
%>

To use any of the above, you just include the page with the above content in all pages via SSI, then
insert:

<%=Plink%>
in the body tag in place of the color for hyperlinks or as a font color, etc.

or

<%=DateNow%>
where ever you want to display the current date (from the server, but can be adjusted for time
zones)

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Murray]

Err - that's not out of date. It's just plain wrong. But, who's counting?
8)

CSS1 is good to go, in my opinion. Learn it and use it. By the time you
get there, you will know what works in which browser, and the best way to
get things done....

 

[John]

Just to clarify: Your information is out of date. IE 5 does NOT support CSS
2.0 much at all. Netscape 6 does.
See:

http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/supportkey/syntax.htm

"IE has supported the full implementation of CSS since IE5"

Not 2.0 but it did fully support v1.0. That was my point. I
doubt it's likely that an amateur will need the full implementation of
2.0.


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

 

[John]

ASP and Windows IIS happens to be what I use for all my projects.

It has my interest but I'm thinking more and more about going to PHP
instead. I attempted to install .NET on my XP SP2 system and it
crashed at the third CD. It's very, very rare that a program shuts my
system down and even more rare that I use something that has done it.
I've just completely reinstalling Windows 2000 Professional so I may
just give it another try.

Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Not 2.0 but it did fully support v1.0. That was my point. I

doubt it's likely that an amateur will need the full implementation of
2.0.

You didn't mention what version, just a blanket statement that IE supports
"the full implementation of" CSS better than Netscape:

IE has supported the full implementation of CSS since IE5
which was released on 4.12.99. Unfortunately AOL bought Netscape and
stalled the development of a supporting browser until November of
2001.

In fact, comparing apples to apples, the latest version of IE supports LESS
CSS than the latest version of Netscape.

Also, this is your first mention of "amateur." I don't see the relevance of
that. There are both amateurs and professionals, as well as full-fledged
experts using this newsgroup.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

I also have a Windows 2003 server, but I don't use .Net

..Net is best suited for Windows 2000 or 2003 server, not Windows 2000 Pro or XP Pro.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Murray]

Thomas:

I understand the point you are making.

If you are building mostly applications that don't do much other than grab
info from the visitor or from a database and then display it, I can see
where CSS would have limited appeal (although I'd still rather do it in CSS
than in server-script).

Most of the posts I see here are not like that however. They are mostly
from new users or intermittant users, all of whom could benefit from
exposure to the concepts and the benefits. Some may find it an epiphany.
Some may not. Whatever! 8)

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

I don't tell anyone not use CSS, just mainly to avoid using Absolute Positioning.

I actually work with CSS on a daily basis, because it is used by my developer clients, however I do
not use it where I have complete control of the project.

What else is there to a web site, then to either display static or database driven content or get
content from users in a interactive way?
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[John]

I also have a Windows 2003 server, but I don't use .Net

.Net is best suited for Windows 2000 or 2003 server, not Windows 2000 Pro or XP Pro.

Thanks for the info. I haven't had the time to look into .NET
but my nephew is doing a lot of online sales for some wholesale
company using it. He seems to like it a lot.


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

 

[John]

You didn't mention what version, just a blanket statement that IE supports
"the full implementation of" CSS better than Netscape:

Sorry. I should have thought of that. I just took it for
granted that most would know that CSS 2.0 wasn't implemented
_in_browsers_ until a much later time as the spec wasn't even
published until '98.

In fact, comparing apples to apples, the latest version of IE supports LESS
CSS than the latest version of Netscape.

I'm sure that's accurate and I use Mozilla most of the time
myself. Since AOL bought up Netscape, I just prefer to stay away from
it.

Also, this is your first mention of "amateur." I don't see the relevance of
that. There are both amateurs and professionals, as well as full-fledged
experts using this newsgroup.

A lot of pro's are using .NET and other programming languages.
Most amateurs don't have the time or skill to learn those
capabilities. OTOH it doesn't take much if any skill to write a basic
style sheet.


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

Your statement is not right
Currently NO browser supports CSS1 entirely, although many are pretty close now
- there are numerous sites documenting the bugs like
(http://css.nu/pointers/bugs.html)
and for IE history of support of the CSS GUIDELINES see
(http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/css/reference/attributes.asp)
- each browser has elements of the GUIDELINE that are not supported (and may never be), (or supported flakily at best) and in quirks
mode are unsupported
The point many of us are trying to make is CSS is a Tool and you must know how and when to correctly use any tool
The CSS Guidelines are just that, Not a mandate for browsers to adopt
- for legacy reasons some browsers will never fully support CSS1 or 2

--




| On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:50:52 -0500, "Thomas A. Rowe" <[email protected]>
| wrote:
|
| >Using CSS, your pages will NOT look right in all browsers, as all browsers currently in use do not
| >support CSS fully or at all.
|
| Just to clarify "currently in use" does not mean currently
| available. IE has supported the full implementation of CSS since IE5
| which was released on 4.12.99. Unfortunately AOL bought Netscape and
| stalled the development of a supporting browser until November of
| 2001. The funny thing is that Opera had already beat both out when
| they had release 3.5 in November of '98. Frankly if someone's still
| using IE4.X, NS4.X, Opera 2.X or some other piece of antiquity they
| might as well be using Lynx.
|
| I like your solution of using VB script but frankly it's much,
| much easier to create a few style sheets that can easily be updated in
| Notepad rather than have to learn ASP.
|
| Lastly, don't ASP and VB-based engines have to run MS based
| servers ?
|
| Regards,
|
| John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
| Please remove the "_" when replying via email