C-sharp demand on par with Assembler - Apache releases a Java app server (Re: Skills in most demand)

[Roedy Green]

They may
code like whizzes, but may not yet know the "why's". And when volume is the
priority, even the best programmers will produce bugs.

This sounds like the racist clap trap I heard as a child that the
Japanese were only capable of mindlessly copying. They ended up
surpassing America in quality.

There is nothing to stop a repeat with software in India.

They have a major advantage -- a lower cost of living.

 

[Joe Jitsu]

BeastFish wrote:

The level of intelligence isn't as much a factor as some would assume
regarding the outsourcees (?). One factor is that many of the overseas
outsourcees are little more than code factories, where quantity takes
precedence over quality. Also, most working for such a facility are
probably young recent grads since they cost less. Thus they may be the

You know whenever people try to *soften* a major trend like outsourcing,
they end up eating their hat. At first they criticize the quality, then
the language barriers and so on...

If you looked at what people said about Japanese products and workers in
the 1960's and 70's -- just prior to the wave of automobile imports in
the 1980's -- you will see the same thing.

Japan proved that language is not a barrier to selling to other people
-- hell, we've been doing that for 100 years! And now, India, a
country which actually has more of claim to *English* -- having been a
former member of the Empire -- is poised to do the same in 'high
technology' -- and why not. If they would let me, I would move there
in a flash, get a hut, and join a c# sharp sweatshop and work 16 hours a
day and live, breathe and love c# and I would be happy. Eventually, I
would save enough rupees to buy a few wives and put another couple of
mud brick walls on my hacienda.

THAT'S LIVING !

 

[Michael N. Christoff]

This sounds like the racist clap trap I heard as a child that the
Japanese were only capable of mindlessly copying. They ended up
surpassing America in quality.

I'm not sure if he was being rascist. He didn't say Indians do not know the
'whys', he said that the typical hire is usually a recent college grad
because they can demand less compensation. Most recent college grads do not
know all the 'whys' yet (due to lack of experience), no matter what country
they're from. Lack of experience does not equate to lack of potential.



l8r, Mike N. Christoff

 

[Jeff Relf]

Hi Joe Jitsu,

Re: Outsourcing coding to India.

You wrote,
" If they would let me,
I would move there in a flash, get a hut,
and join a c# sharp sweatshop and work 16 hours a day
and live, breathe and love c# and I would be happy.
Eventually, I would save enough rupees to buy a few wives
and put another couple of mud brick walls on my hacienda.

THAT'S LIVING ! "

Love C# ? C++ is better.

Buy a few wives ? Anything is better.

 

[Jeff Relf]

Hi (e-mail address removed),

Re: Certifying flight critical apps.

You commented,
" Obviously, this creates an incentive
to keep the software as lean as possible
( i.e. no bloated OO tool-kits ). "

That's were Linux really shines, thanks for that story.

I love lean and mean code.

 

[Joe Jitsu]

Jeff Relf wrote:

Buy a few wives? I'll take 3 !
If they would let me,
I would move there in a flash, get a hut,
and join a c# sharp sweatshop and work 16 hours a day
and live, breathe and love c# and I would be happy.
Eventually, I would save enough rupees to buy a few wives
and put another couple of mud brick walls on my hacienda.

Jeff, now you've learned that c#/mono are your future meal ticket.

Learn, Jeff, Learn mono...and maybe those jute bags will be yours !

 

[Joe Jitsu]

That's were Linux really shines, thanks for that story.

I love lean and mean code.

Then why not keep everything to a minimum, with c#/mono ?

Mono is going to be on every desktop, everywhere worldwide.

Why not build on an installed based of assemblies, rather
than porting libraries around, like a caveman toting water
on the backs of his oxen?

 

[BeastFish]

offshoring is a different issue, i think. while, say, indian

Agreed. Many people seem to think that all Indian programmers must
necessarily be less intelligent or less able just because they are paid less
money. That isn't the case at all. Many Indian (and other nationality)
programmers are very intelligent and very well educated people and in many
cases they are far more capable than the average American programmer. I
would agree that there is a bit of a language problem due to the fact that
English is not their first language, but judging by the appalling grammar
and spelling in many newsgroup messages written by native English and
American programmers I can't see that being too much of a problem for them!

Mike

The level of intelligence isn't as much a factor as some would assume
regarding the outsourcees (?). One factor is that many of the overseas
outsourcees are little more than code factories, where quantity takes
precedence over quality. Also, most working for such a facility are
probably young recent grads since they cost less. Thus they may be the
brightest, smartest, most book-knowledgeable there is, but may be lacking in
the type of knowledge and wisdom one acquires through experience. They may
code like whizzes, but may not yet know the "why's". And when volume is the
priority, even the best programmers will produce bugs.

I read an article in one of the major business publications a while ago
analyzing the development of the tech sector in India. India is in the
early stages of building a substantial venture capital base. Taking into
consideration India's growing venture capital base and plenty of HB visa
holders returning home with entrepreneurial ambitions, India is expected to
become the technology leader of the world in around 10 years. IOW, India
will be the home of the majority of software companies and where most future
innovations will be coming from. Heck, even Microsoft is investing
financially in India and also employs a lot of HB workers from India in
Redmond.

 

[Jeff Brooks]

Hi Hot Tamales !,

Re: Your endless envy.

You commented,
" Should programmers be paid like
customer service representatives rather than demigods ? "

I make 400 per month ... Is that low enough for you ?

If thats all you make as a programmer you should look for another job.
Last time I checked programmers with zero experience just out of
university make $42,000 a year.

Check out these sites:
- www.monster.com
- www.dice.com

Jeff Brooks

 

[Michael N. Christoff]

If thats all you make as a programmer you should look for another job.
Last time I checked programmers with zero experience just out of
university make $42,000 a year.

In Canada its probably between 30-40 grand. But I agree about Jeff finding
a new job. Its one thing not to be driven by money, its another thing not
to be driven by basic survival. Isn't $4800 a year illegal in the states?
Its gotta be far less than minimum wage.

Check out these sites:
- www.monster.com
- www.dice.com

l8r, Mike N. Christoff

 

[J French]

This sounds like the racist clap trap I heard as a child that the
Japanese were only capable of mindlessly copying. They ended up
surpassing America in quality.

It does not sound like 'racist clap trap' to me

Perhaps 'ageist' clap trap
- provided one believes that it is clap trap that people learn through
experience ...

 

[Peter Ammon]

The level of intelligence isn't as much a factor as some would assume
regarding the outsourcees (?). One factor is that many of the overseas
outsourcees are little more than code factories, where quantity takes
precedence over quality. Also, most working for such a facility are
probably young recent grads since they cost less. Thus they may be the
brightest, smartest, most book-knowledgeable there is, but may be lacking in
the type of knowledge and wisdom one acquires through experience. They may
code like whizzes, but may not yet know the "why's". And when volume is the
priority, even the best programmers will produce bugs.

I don't know if the above is true or not. One problem I have heard is
that many parts of India are undergoing rapid salary inflation. This
gives tech workers an incentive to leave for higher paying jobs, and new
workers are continually brought in to fill the gaps. This means that
few people stay around to get much experience with any particular
project. Again, just something I read.

I read an article in one of the major business publications a while ago
analyzing the development of the tech sector in India. India is in the
early stages of building a substantial venture capital base. Taking into
consideration India's growing venture capital base and plenty of HB visa
holders returning home with entrepreneurial ambitions, India is expected to
become the technology leader of the world in around 10 years. IOW, India
will be the home of the majority of software companies and where most future
innovations will be coming from.

I don't resent anyone taking my bread and butter because they're smarter
or hungrier (in the ambition sense) than me. My fear is that my smarts
and hunger will be trumped by the apparent short term benefits of moving
my job where someone else can afford to work more cheaply.

Heck, even Microsoft is investing
financially in India and also employs a lot of HB workers from India in
Redmond.

Even so, they might still be able to innovate

 

[Jeff Relf]

Hi Joe Jitsu ( John ),

You wrote,
" Jeff, I've finally learned that c++ is just plain fun.
The money is now very secondary to me.

I don't know why I ever thought C++ was so difficult.
C++ can create open-source / cross-platform applets
better than any fly-by-night language such as C#.

I must learn, Jeff, Learn C++ ...
and then maybe ... just maybe ...
I won't be so horny anymore. "

Wow, John. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Jeff Relf]

Hi Michael N. Christoff,

Re: My income for programming in C++.

You commented,
" It's one thing not to be driven by money,
its another thing not to be driven by basic survival. "

Basic survival ?

I live in the heart of Seattle near the Univ. of Wash.,
Everything is at my disposal here,
Tons of lush parks, water everywhere,
both fresh and salty. Breath taking vistas everywhere.

Mile after mile of pedestrian-only walk ways.
( With fantastic views )

Room after room of computers on campus,
connected to Usenet/web at 8 Mega Bits per second.
VC 6, CD burners, USB ports for flash memory, etc. .

What more could I ask for ?

You asked,
" Isn't $4800 a year illegal in the states ?
Its gotta be far less than minimum wage. "

Last year I worked a total of about 50 hours, the whole year.

I'm working a lot more than that this year,
but my hourly rate is still quite high.

 

[Jamal Marley]

Jeff Relf, decry:

Re: My income for polishing monkey tails.

I live in a dumpter in Seattle near the Univ. of Wash.,
Everyday I have to vacate when the disposal trucks come,
Tons of foods waste, liquids everywhere,
both fresh and salty. Each day I raise the container lid
and moan my fate in life.

Jeff, polishing monkey tails is fine if you want to live in a dumpster all
day -- but obviously, all those years of training as an Ada programmer,
have caused you to decend to sub-poverty levels.

Idea: Go to amazon and order one of those Wrox c# sharp books that used to
sell for $70 in 2002, and now is selling for $5 in the 'New & Used' section.
You'll then have a marketable skill as a technical writer ( programming c#
will come much later, once you have shown some degree of competence ).

 

[Jamal Marley]

I curse the day that Bill Gate$ released .NET
Now all my Visual c++ ain't worth shit.

Jeff,

Hell hath no fury like a programmer scorned.

Bill is a man of many languages and software platform.

In the steam room the boys like to say, that he 'loves them,
and leaves them...'

That's why following a loser around is not the answer.

Go Linux. Go mono. Go c#. Get a steady OS, a steady
Object Layer and good solid language.

 

[Michael N. Christoff]

Hi Michael N. Christoff,

Re: My income for programming in C++.

You commented,
" It's one thing not to be driven by money,
its another thing not to be driven by basic survival. "

Basic survival ?

I live in the heart of Seattle near the Univ. of Wash.,
Everything is at my disposal here,
Tons of lush parks, water everywhere,
both fresh and salty. Breath taking vistas everywhere.

Mile after mile of pedestrian-only walk ways.
( With fantastic views )

Room after room of computers on campus,
connected to Usenet/web at 8 Mega Bits per second.
VC 6, CD burners, USB ports for flash memory, etc. .

What more could I ask for ?

You asked,
" Isn't $4800 a year illegal in the states ?
Its gotta be far less than minimum wage. "

Last year I worked a total of about 50 hours, the whole year.

I'm working a lot more than that this year,
but my hourly rate is still quite high.

Well, as long as you're happy (AND eating!!).



l8r, Mike N. Christoff

 

[Jeff Relf]

Hi Jamal Marley ( John ),

Re: When you were Bill's special project.

You noted,
" In the steam room the boys liked to say that he
' loves them, and leaves them ' ".

That's right John,
That's why you should avoid Bill's latest language du jour.
It will be old news pretty soon ... just stale leftovers.

Stick with something that's going to really last ...
like C and the better parts of C++.

I love the way C++ lets me declare variables anywhere,
and not just before the first statement.

I also love the way C++ can bind a variable to a reference
using & and =, e.g.: int Any, & Reference = Any ;
So Reference and Any are exactly the same thing.

 

[Jeff Relf]

Hi Michael N. Christoff,

Re: My very low annual income.

You commented,
" Well, as long as you're happy ( AND eating !! ). "

How could a lack of food ever Ever be a problem Anywhere ?

I've spent most of my life trying not to overeat.
( I'm just over 6 foot and 163 pounds
See my web site for a picture:
http://www.NCPlus.NET/~jeff_relf/ )
The idea of a lack of food in Seattle
is incomprehensible to me.

Rent is a much bigger issue.
However, I'm only pay 250 dollars per month.
It's a basement room in Seattle's U-District.
Homes here cost 700 thousand and up.

It's a damn fine neighborhood, I say.

 

[Jeff Relf]

Hi Jamal Marley ( John ),

Once again, you are projecting John.
You are the one who loves Ada,
and every other fly-by-night language ( e.g. C# ),
not me.

Ada was a big government thing,
just like ten thousand dollar toilets ... and Linux.

You are the one who is full of envy and horniness, not me.

Unlike you, I love my life.

Horny dudes like you get in big trouble, it's inevitable.