Archive Quality BD for Time Capsule!

[Justin]

Not Apple's time capsule.

My University is putting together a time capsule that will be opened in
a loooooooooong time. Probably 50 to 100 years.
Are those "archival quality" blu-ray discs a rip off or are they
genuinely more reliable for the super long term?

 

[Rod Speed]

Not Apple's time capsule.

My University is putting together a time capsule that will be
opened in a loooooooooong time. Probably 50 to 100 years.

Are those "archival quality" blu-ray discs a rip off or are
they genuinely more reliable for the super long term?

No one actually knows, we havent tried it yet.

It would be safer to include all of archive quality CDs, DVDs,
and bluerays too and more than one brand of each type too.

 

[Mike S.]

No one actually knows, we havent tried it yet.

It would be safer to include all of archive quality CDs, DVDs,
and bluerays too and more than one brand of each type too.

Been reading message threads on MyCE (formerly CDFreaks) where recorded
Ritek BD-R became unreadable in a matter of months. This is usually one of
the recommended brands.

On the other hand, Millenniata M-Disc DVD+R blanks are supposed to last
hundreds of years longer than ther average user would need them to.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

Been reading message threads on MyCE (formerly CDFreaks) where recorded
Ritek BD-R became unreadable in a matter of months. This is usually one of
the recommended brands.

On the other hand, Millenniata M-Disc DVD+R blanks are supposed to last
hundreds of years longer than ther average user would need them to.

Obviously Ritek are using the wrong dye:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Lascaux_04.jpg

- Franc Zabkar

 

[Arno]

Not Apple's time capsule.

My University is putting together a time capsule that will be opened in
a loooooooooong time. Probably 50 to 100 years.
Are those "archival quality" blu-ray discs a rip off or are they
genuinely more reliable for the super long term?

BDs are generally not archival media. Even "archival grade"
are not. Use high-quality paper and single sided laser-printing.
Include description of the data format, whoch can, e.g. be a 2D barcode.
That it your only reasonable option. After all, in order to
read things, you need to have a reader as well, not just the medium.
Quite possibly BD readers will be unavailable in 50-100 years.

Arno

 

[Arno]

These "hundresds of years" figures are nonsense. They only apply
to perfect storage conditions _and_ rather shaky long-term aging models.
The only medium to ever achive 50-80 years _in_ _practice_ is MOD,
and that went out of fashion because nobody wanted to pay for
reliability. Even archival grade tape is only good for something
around 30 years. With consumer-grade media, even 10 years under real
conditions is a stretch for data. For video you may be able to get
15-20 years with some degradation.

Arnop

 

[Mike S.]

Obviously Ritek are using the wrong dye:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Lascaux_04.jpg

Perhaps, but people want BD videos of things other than bison, too.

 

[Justin]

BDs are generally not archival media. Even "archival grade"
are not. Use high-quality paper and single sided laser-printing.
Include description of the data format, whoch can, e.g. be a 2D barcode.
That it your only reasonable option. After all, in order to
read things, you need to have a reader as well, not just the medium.
Quite possibly BD readers will be unavailable in 50-100 years.

Arno

True.
But in 100 years, just as we know of a Victrola they will know of those
ancient BDs.
Even today with specialized equipment we have the ability to playback
and thus record sounds from a early 1900's phonograph. I'm going to
assume that in a century somebody somewhere will know what to do with a BD.
In other news, the time capsule itself is basically a stainless steel
egg to be put in a cornerstone of a building being built here on the
campus. I believe it will be hermetically sealed. One of the chemistry
professors wants to fill it with an inert gas.

 

[Mike S.]

These "hundresds of years" figures are nonsense. They only apply
to perfect storage conditions _and_ rather shaky long-term aging models.
The only medium to ever achive 50-80 years _in_ _practice_ is MOD,
and that went out of fashion because nobody wanted to pay for
reliability. Even archival grade tape is only good for something
around 30 years. With consumer-grade media, even 10 years under real
conditions is a stretch for data. For video you may be able to get
15-20 years with some degradation.

Of course, accelerated aging tests just give estimates; but still, the
military testing on M-Disc vs conventional dye-based media was pretty
impressive. Under conditions that literally destroyed the other discs, the
Millenniata disc came out totally readable and unscathed.

http://millenniata.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/China-Lake-Study.pdf

 

[Arno]

Of course, accelerated aging tests just give estimates; but still, the
military testing on M-Disc vs conventional dye-based media was pretty
impressive. Under conditions that literally destroyed the other discs, the
Millenniata disc came out totally readable and unscathed.

http://millenniata.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/China-Lake-Study.pdf

It may just have a non-standard agein profile. And how are they
ensuring that drives remain available?

Also, I do not think these are the reight people to test storage
media, thay likely do not have the background. If this was done,
say, by storage experts at Phillips, I would trust this figures
more, as these people are competent and careful in their estimations.

Arno

 

[Arno]

True.
But in 100 years, just as we know of a Victrola they will know of those
ancient BDs.

Yes, but will they know how in detail they are to be read? And
will it be worthwhile to create a reader?

Even today with specialized equipment we have the ability to playback
and thus record sounds from a early 1900's phonograph.

That is easy. Try finding somebody that can read early digital
tape storage.

I'm going to
assume that in a century somebody somewhere will know what to do with a BD.

Which is meaningless. And due to degradation, it will likely not
be a standard reading job.

In other news, the time capsule itself is basically a stainless steel
egg to be put in a cornerstone of a building being built here on the
campus. I believe it will be hermetically sealed. One of the chemistry
professors wants to fill it with an inert gas.

Ok, lets just say this data does not really have to survive, it is
more a publicity stunt. In that case, you can do it. Otherwise, no
way.

Arno

 

[Mike S.]

It may just have a non-standard agein profile. And how are they
ensuring that drives remain available?

Standard DVD drives will read (but not write) them.

Also, I do not think these are the reight people to test storage
media, thay likely do not have the background. If this was done,
say, by storage experts at Phillips, I would trust this figures
more, as these people are competent and careful in their estimations.

Optical storage media are a dying product segment. Probably too much
trouble to undertake a new study at this stage of the game.

 

[Justin]

Of course, accelerated aging tests just give estimates; but still, the
military testing on M-Disc vs conventional dye-based media was pretty
impressive. Under conditions that literally destroyed the other discs, the
Millenniata disc came out totally readable and unscathed.

http://millenniata.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/China-Lake-Study.pdf

I wish they would make an M-DISC BD!
The drives would probably be pricey.

 

[Mike S.]

I wish they would make an M-DISC BD!
The drives would probably be pricey.

FWIW - I discovered these when shopping for an emergency DVD burner
replacement at Micro Center. They had an LG GH22NS90 OEM (bare) drive for
$18 and it had the M-Disc logo on it. Looking into that, I discovered the
media itself and the story. The blanks are pricey - about $3 each. If they
did this for BD you probably would expect reasonably priced drives but
very expensive blanks.

 

[Millenniata]

Hello! I came across this nice little discussion today and thought I would weigh in on behalf of our technology.

First, I can understand your skepticism Arno. The optical media industry has made a lot of claims and has had a tough time living up to those claims reliably. Organic dye based data layers are highly susceptible to corruption which is exactly why we decided to pursue alternative methods and technology. The data layer on the M-DISC is composed of inorganic materials and compounds that allow us to literally etch into it--no dyes and no simple marks on the surface. These "pits" that are created when you burn data to the disc do not degrade like dye based layers do. Further, our data layer allows for a stronger bond to be made between the outer polycarbonate layers. This helps to prevent delamination, another common cause for catastrophic failure with typical optical discs. I've posted two short videos that highlight the positive effects of these features.

In this video the M-DISC survives being dipped into liquid nitrogen and can even be read in an optical drive afterwards. Alternatively, notice how the layers of a typical optical disc separate.

And in this video we show more of the physical abuse an M-DISC can withstand.

As for your distrust of the Chinal Lake Study, the test was a nonpartisan study which strictly adhered to ECMA-379 standards. Philips supports and uses ECMA standards so whether or not Philips ran the test is irrelevant. There is no question as to the veracity of the test done by the U.S. Department of Defense Naval Air Warfare Weapon’s Division facility at China Lake, we had absolutely no influence over the findings.

And finally Arno, there are a number of preservation organizations that have already taken steps to safeguard the necessary information and technology to reproduce an optical drive. Our understanding and ability of this technology will not be forgotten.

As for the OP Justin, I hope you come check out our technology at www.Millenniata.com and contact us through the email on our site. We would love to hear more about your project! One more thing to note, once you burn data to an M-DISC nearly any quality DVD player can then be used to access that data. This would certainly be useful for anyone opening that time capsule in the future!


Taylor
Millenniata Support

 

[Justin]

FWIW - I discovered these when shopping for an emergency DVD burner
replacement at Micro Center. They had an LG GH22NS90 OEM (bare) drive for
$18 and it had the M-Disc logo on it. Looking into that, I discovered the
media itself and the story. The blanks are pricey - about $3 each. If they
did this for BD you probably would expect reasonably priced drives but
very expensive blanks.

What about RDX drives? From what I can tell they are basically 2.5"
laptop hard drives in a case designed for a certain amount of abuse.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

Quite possibly BD readers will be unavailable in 50-100 years.

So, put one in the time capsule.

- Franc Zabkar

 

[Rod Speed]

Mike S. wrote

What about RDX drives? From what I can tell they are basically 2.5"
laptop hard drives in a case designed for a certain amount of abuse.

No one is likely to know what it is in 100 years, let alone be able to read
one.

 

[Arno]

On 25 Apr 2012 11:40:59 GMT, Arno <[email protected]> put finger to
keyboard and composed:

So, put one in the time capsule.

They will become unusable after 10-20 years. And what about the
interface?

Arno