Zalman ZM80C with a 9800 Pro?

[Kevin Miller]

Nope. Just whack a load of gloop on and away you go.

Hey, Chip -- try not to go all technical on us, okay?

BTW, I just ordered a Silencer from www.svc.com a few minutes ago. I
just like buying stuff; what can I say?

Kevin Miller

"The avalanche has already started;
it is too late for the pebbles to vote."

 

[Strontium]

-
J.Clarke stood up at show-n-tell, in
(e-mail address removed), and said:

Somehow I think that if I put a couple of big Delta fans blowing on
either side of the Zalman I'll be able to get as much overclock as is
possible with the "VGA Silencer" and maybe a wee bit more. The notion
that there is something magical about the Zalman that prevents
overclocking is ludicrous.

Agreed. It's a matter of surface area and contact. At least, IMO. One of
the best heatsinks that I've ever seen, performance-wise, was an old Alpha
designed for Super Seven. That thing had so much surface area. When you
compared it, by the norm of the day heatsinks....it made you wonder just why
in the Hell they didn't design the stock sinks that way.... No, we had to
shell out another $40USD (after shipping) to get a 'decent' heatsink for
thosed damned radiators known as K6-2+'s

The Zalman ZM80 is no slouch, on surface area. Not only does it have the
'size'. But, they put the surface area in there, too. My box has a fan
blowing in, on the side, anyway.

 

[Ted]

Having just installed one of these myself I have a few comments and this
looks as good a place as any to put them.

The ZM-80C comes with two mounting blocks, a narrow one that looks to
have been targetted specifically at the Radeon 9800 and a wider one that
apparently is to deal with board where the holes are too far apart for
the narrow one.

They provide some spare parts which is a good thing IMO and a rarity
these days--drop one of the screws down a crack and it's no disaster.
Also a screwdriver--anybody know any charities that need a bunch of
small Phillips screwdrivers?

Getting the old heat sink off the 9800 is no problem at all--pull on the
old one gently and while pulling take a pair of long-nosed pliers and
sqeeze each of the two mounting pins and it pops right off, no hassle,
no trauma.

The 9800 looks to have had some kind of silver-based heat sink compound
on it--I had a tube of Arctic Silver on hand so used that in that
location--figured ATI wouldn't have spent the extra half a cent or
whatever it costs them without a reason--used the stuff that comes with
the Zalman in the others that had larger contact surfaces--there was a
little left over in the first tube and there's a second in the spares.
No hassle if you don't have Arctic Silver though--Dansdata ran a test a
while back in which he determined that toothpaste has slightly better
heat transfer than any of the commercial compounds and Vegemite comes
close, but they dry out and the commercial compounds don't--regardless
the difference is small.

Haven't run a stress-test on it yet, in normal use the Zalman, sans fan,
gets hot but not so hot that I can't hold my hand on it--newegg was out
of the fans, so I ordered from siliconacoustics (not the
cheapest around, would probably have done as well to go by
CrapUSA, but I was ordering some other bits and saw the fan and
figured it didn't cost enough to be worth looking for cheaper)--newegg
shipped from Tech Data's New Jersey warehouse and the stuff arrived
overnight (I'm close to New Jersey), siliconacoustics shipped from the
west coast, so the fan won't be here until Friday--I'm going to try to
avoid getting too rambunctious until then.

Please let us know how you get on. I'm particually interested if you can get
away without using the fan on a 9800 pro.

I think I've got fairly good case ventilation. I have two near silent fans
blowing in at the bottom front of the case, one blowing out at the back a
few inches above where the graphics card sits, PSU fan and a fan in the top
of the case. I'd guess the airflow blows past the graphics card. - maybe
this will be enough to stop it overheating? Guess I'll have to give it a
try.

Cheers,

Ted

 

[Ted]

Ted, don't do it! Read my post and go for the www.arctic-cooling.com vga
silencer! Its a way better product, easier to fit, less than half the
price, better overclocker. The Zalman is an OK product too. But why pay

2x more for something that's just not as good?

Chip.

I'm primarily concerned about noise levels, and in high speed mode the Artic
cooler is just as loud as the stock cooler (according to their own marketing
blurb).

The cooler plugs into the existing fan header on the graphics card, and
therefore is controlled by the 9800 pro card itself. Therefore, am I correct
in thinking when playing games and high-speed mode kicks in, the Artic
cooler becomes just as loud as the stock cooler?

Cheers,

Ted.

 

[Chip]

Somehow I think that if I put a couple of big Delta fans blowing on
either side of the Zalman I'll be able to get as much overclock as is
possible with the "VGA Silencer" and maybe a wee bit more. The notion
that there is something magical about the Zalman that prevents
overclocking is ludicrous.

I agree completely.

But what's the point of that? It wouldn't be silent then, would it!??!??!
We are talking about a guy who is looking for a *quiet* solution. All I am
saying is that the VGA Silencer does a better job than the Zalman if that's
what you want. Presumably the design of the VGA Silencer - venting hot air
out of the case - does a better job at keeping the core cool than the Zalman
does (allowing all the heat to hang around the heatsink inside your case.
It doesn't take a *wild* leap of imagination to figure it out, does it.

Anyone would this I had uttered some kind of heresy!

Chip

 

[Chip]

I'm primarily concerned about noise levels, and in high speed mode the Artic
cooler is just as loud as the stock cooler (according to their own marketing
blurb).

The cooler plugs into the existing fan header on the graphics card, and
therefore is controlled by the 9800 pro card itself. Therefore, am I correct
in thinking when playing games and high-speed mode kicks in, the Artic
cooler becomes just as loud as the stock cooler?

No. Just set it to "low" and it stays on low. I have a *very* quiet PC and
its completely inaudible in this mode. My CPU HS/fan is only emitting 19dB
and its easily the loudest thing in the case. If I turn off the CPU fan, I
*still* can't hear the VGA Silencer. And in this "low" mode, I can still
run my 9700 Pro at 400+ MHz. Maybe 410, something like that.

Cheers,

Chip.

 

[J. Clarke]

I agree completely.

But what's the point of that? It wouldn't be silent then, would it!??!??!

And you're not silent with the "VGA Silencer" either. Leaving aside the
fact that overclocking is not something that most people have any desire or
need to do, what overclock can you achieve with the Zalman without a fan?
Do you _know_ the answer to this, or are you just assuming that Zalmans CYA
disclaimer means anything other than that Zalman doesn't want to pay for
your board if you damage it while attempting to overclock it?

We are talking about a guy who is looking for a *quiet* solution.

And it doesn't get quieter than fanless.

All I am saying is that the VGA Silencer does a better job than the
Zalman if that's what you want.

If one wants quiet then the quietest device that will work is doing "a
better job" and the VGA Silencer is not the quieter of the two.

Presumably the design of the VGA Silencer - venting hot
air out of the case - does a better job at keeping the core cool than the
Zalman does (allowing all the heat to hang around the heatsink inside your
case.

If heat is hanging around the heat sink then there is inadequate airflow
through the case.

It doesn't take a *wild* leap of imagination to figure it out, does
it.

How is its venting "hot" air out of the case beneficial? If it brought in
cool outside air that would be one thing, but it doesn't move enough air
out to make any kind of real difference. The air temperature inside my
case right now is 2 degrees above ambient. The VGA Silencer isn't going to
cause the air flowing over the heat sink to be any cooler than that.

Anyone would this I had uttered some kind of heresy!

No, you're engaging in mindless advocacy, which is worse.

 

[Chip]

it!??!??!

And you're not silent with the "VGA Silencer" either. Leaving aside the
fact that overclocking is not something that most people have any desire or
need to do, what overclock can you achieve with the Zalman without a fan?
Do you _know_ the answer to this, or are you just assuming that Zalmans CYA
disclaimer means anything other than that Zalman doesn't want to pay for
your board if you damage it while attempting to overclock it?


And it doesn't get quieter than fanless.


If one wants quiet then the quietest device that will work is doing "a
better job" and the VGA Silencer is not the quieter of the two.


If heat is hanging around the heat sink then there is inadequate airflow
through the case.


How is its venting "hot" air out of the case beneficial? If it brought in
cool outside air that would be one thing, but it doesn't move enough air
out to make any kind of real difference. The air temperature inside my
case right now is 2 degrees above ambient. The VGA Silencer isn't going to
cause the air flowing over the heat sink to be any cooler than that.


No, you're engaging in mindless advocacy, which is worse.

Mindless as in "assess the relative benefits and costs of two competing
products and find one to be superior on both counts"?

Seems to be a degree of bias on your part, I might add.

Chip.

 

[Thomas Andrén]

How is its venting "hot" air out of the case beneficial? If it brought in
cool outside air that would be one thing, but it doesn't move enough air
out to make any kind of real difference. The air temperature inside my
case right now is 2 degrees above ambient. The VGA Silencer isn't going to
cause the air flowing over the heat sink to be any cooler than that.

You are wrong, 9800 Pro adds alot of heat inside and that heat must go
somwhere. VGA Silencer takes it right out without leaving any heat inside
the computer. My computer got quite hot inside using stock fan, now i do not
have that problem anymore using VGA Silencer.

I was about to buy Zalman Z80 but i was concerned (my english is not so
good), about weight, i did a search for reviews first to see how good it
was. My conclusion was that Zalman does the job but it gets really hot,
reviewers recommended to add a fan to Z80. They also wrote that you should
newer OC without additional fan using Z80. Like most other coolers it adds
heat inside the computer too.

Reviews of VGA Silencer looked mutch better, it was lighter, good quality,
and you could get atleast 3 of them at the same price of one Z80 with Zalman
fan. I think i read that Zalman Z80 fan addon was not a quiet one..

Z80 may look good in a display stand, but i never see my video card so.. I
have no idea how good VGA Silencer is for OC, but i think it should be very
good at it. I play alot of "heavy" games and i have only used my cooler in
silent mode, there are no need to run it faster. I listened 5cm from VGA
Silencer in silent mode and i could not hear any sound at all.

/Thomas A/

 

[J. Clarke]

You are wrong, 9800 Pro adds alot of heat inside and that heat must go
somwhere.

Yes, it does. It goes out the back along with the heat from the CPU and the
power supply and the disks and everything else.

VGA Silencer takes it right out without leaving any heat inside
the computer. My computer got quite hot inside using stock fan, now i do
not have that problem anymore using VGA Silencer.

Then your case has inadequate airflow. If the "VGA Silencer" made a
difference in your internal case temperature then your case cooling was
inadequate. Mine runs 2C above ambient with the Zalman or the ATI standard
HSF. I see no need for yet another exhaust fan in any properly configured
machine.

I was about to buy Zalman Z80 but i was concerned (my english is not so
good), about weight, i did a search for reviews first to see how good it
was. My conclusion was that Zalman does the job but it gets really hot,
reviewers recommended to add a fan to Z80. They also wrote that you should
newer OC without additional fan using Z80. Like most other coolers it adds
heat inside the computer too.

No "cooler" except a Peltier "adds heat inside the computer". The heat is
already there.

Reviews of VGA Silencer looked mutch better, it was lighter, good quality,
and you could get atleast 3 of them at the same price of one Z80 with
Zalman fan. I think i read that Zalman Z80 fan addon was not a quiet one..

You mean I can get a "VGA Silencer" for $11? Where? The lowest price I can
find is $20, which is $2 less than the best price I can find on a ZM80C.
Add $10 for the fan and that's $32.

Z80 may look good in a display stand, but i never see my video card so.. I
have no idea how good VGA Silencer is for OC, but i think it should be
very good at it.

So? I _think_ the Zalman is better. So there.

I play alot of "heavy" games and i have only used my
cooler in silent mode, there are no need to run it faster. I listened 5cm
from VGA Silencer in silent mode and i could not hear any sound at all.

Well that's nice. Now, what are you going to do when the bearing in that
fan goes?

 

[J. Clarke]

Mindless as in "assess the relative benefits and costs of two competing
products and find one to be superior on both counts"?

No, mindless as in misrepresenting both products, setting up special cases
that make one look "better" artificially, that sort of thing.

Seems to be a degree of bias on your part, I might add.

Nope. If the VGA Silencer looks to be the best solution for a particular
situation then I have no problem with using it. But it is not "better" or
"worse" than the Zalman, it's just "different". When someone starts
insisting that a given solution is "better" and something else is worthless
in absolute terms rather than relative to a particular set of circumstances
then anything he says must be taken with a large dose of salt.

By the way, I note another post in which someone busted his core with a VGA
Silencer trying to circumvent the little situation that it has with respect
to the shim on ATI boards--seems that despite allegedly being designed
specifically for ATI it doesn't have the raised contact area that is needed
to get good core contact without removing the shim. The Zalman comes with
two contact plates, one of them having that raised area and clearly
designed to address that specific issue.

 

[NBoy]

Nope. Just whack a load of gloop on and away you go. The installation is a
piece of cake, apart from getting the old hs/fan off, which is a bit fiddly.
But having done that, the VGA silencer is so easy to fit a 7 year old could
do it.

Chip.

Hi Chip,
I just got my Arctic Cooling Silencer yesterday. I'm wondering if it's ok
to leave it on HI at all time ? I knew I started having heat problem when I
played Command and Conquer with the game locked up and shut down. I had this
small screen popped up saying that the thing was overheating. The ATI fan was
also making really loud noise anytime I play the game.
With Silencer, I don't have that problem at all. I love this thing. And I
know the hot air is blown out (verify that myself). One thing is I'm not sure
why they did not make the HS attach to the vent at the back. I notice that
there is a small space (1CM). Do you have the same problem ?

 

[JR]

PMFJI but most reputable sites sell the Zalman 80C-HP itself for around $32
give or take a buck or two and then the add-on Zalman ZM-OP1 fan itself,
which IMHO would be disireable runs around $10 so you're looking at
potentially a $42+ minus shipping investment which is a good one for someone
who has adequate case ventilation. Otherwise for someone say who isn't
overclocking much but does want excellent video card cooling, the VGA
Silencer would be the best choice. In my own rig I have 3 higher speed fans
sucking air in in my full tower case with an upper rear fan exhausting air
out right above my PS. On my Radeon 9700 Pro, I removed the stock sink/fan
and also the shim and run a Crystal orb with AS3 and on the opposite side I
have one of those blower fans you can pick up at Radio Shack, attached it
with small strips of velcro, blowing down on the underside of the GPU. Under
full loads, ambient temps never rise much above 18C and CPU temps much above
40C. FYI my CPU cooling is done by a Swiftech MCX462+ Rev. 2 & Sunon 84 cfm
Ultra HO Fan which is a tad noisy for me but very tolerable at the moment. I
guess for me the VGA Silencer would be a great choice given the noise factor
with the 3 fans blowing in and the CPU fan so now I'm looking into Liquid
cooling...

JR

 

[J. Clarke]

PMFJI but most reputable sites sell the Zalman 80C-HP itself for around
$32 give or take a buck or two and then the add-on Zalman ZM-OP1 fan
itself, which IMHO would be disireable runs around $10 so you're looking
at potentially a $42+ minus shipping investment which is a good one for
someone who has adequate case ventilation. Otherwise for someone say who
isn't overclocking much but does want excellent video card cooling, the
VGA Silencer would be the best choice. In my own rig I have 3 higher speed
fans sucking air in in my full tower case with an upper rear fan
exhausting air out right above my PS. On my Radeon 9700 Pro, I removed the
stock sink/fan and also the shim and run a Crystal orb with AS3 and on the
opposite side I have one of those blower fans you can pick up at Radio
Shack, attached it with small strips of velcro, blowing down on the
underside of the GPU. Under full loads, ambient temps never rise much
above 18C

???? What is your _room_ temperature?

and CPU temps much above 40C. FYI my CPU cooling is done by a
Swiftech MCX462+ Rev. 2 & Sunon 84 cfm Ultra HO Fan which is a tad noisy
for me but very tolerable at the moment. I guess for me the VGA Silencer
would be a great choice given the noise factor with the 3 fans blowing in
and the CPU fan so now I'm looking into Liquid cooling...

Why bother with liquid cooling? You should be able to maintain the
temperatures you describe with low speed fans.

 

[JR]

I meant to say ambient inside the case, sorry. My rig is upstairs in the
living room as our new place doesn't have a basement, however the room temp
doesn't get much above 70F +/-. I'm only considering liquid cooling for
maximum noise reduction due to being in earshot of family gathering etc. I'm
still in the midst of looking into water cooling offerings out there so
there is much to do and look at...

Regards,

JR

 

[J. Clarke]

I meant to say ambient inside the case, sorry. My rig is upstairs in the
living room as our new place doesn't have a basement, however the room
temp doesn't get much above 70F +/-.

That's why my question. 18C is about 64F. If your case temperature is 64 F
and your room temperature is 70 then there's something wrong somewhere.

I'm only considering liquid cooling
for maximum noise reduction due to being in earshot of family gathering
etc.

Try some low speed Panaflo fans on a rheobus and I suspect you'll be pleased
with the result.

I'm still in the midst of looking into water cooling offerings out
there so there is much to do and look at...

Regards,

JR

 

[JR]

That's why my question. 18C is about 64F. If your case temperature is 64
F

and your room temperature is 70 then there's something wrong somewhere.

Not necessarily. When I said 70 outside the case, it was an estimation off
of my thermostat on the wall opposite my rig and probably wasn't indicative
of the area surrounding it. It drives my wife nuts sometimes but I
occasionally open the window as it gets quite warm here in our townhouse and
the air tends to hug the floor. That figure of 18C though is with no window
open, otherwise I open the window and ambient drops to around 10C or so.
Frankly the ideal situation for adequate case ventilation is where the temp
inside IS cooler than outside. It depends quite a bit too on the
quantity/quality of the fans, in my case I have 3 pretty good high rate fans
sucking in air in the front of my Super Micro SC760A full tower case
(http://www.supermicro.com/PRODUCT/Chassis/SC760.htm) and another quality
fan blowing outward in the back upper above the PS. It's probably more than
I need with those 3 fans in front as it adds a tad to the noise, and heck I
can barely hear the dual WD Raptors over it

Try some low speed Panaflo fans on a rheobus and I suspect you'll be pleased
with the result.

Yeppers, lookin' into it, just need a bit more peace and quiet w/o
sacrificing performance...

Regards,

JR

 

[Chip]

"Chip" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Hi Chip,
I just got my Arctic Cooling Silencer yesterday. I'm wondering if it's ok
to leave it on HI at all time ?

Sure it is. Its not completely silent in HI mode, but its still pretty
damned quiet. But I doubt if you need it on HI anyway. Its **waaaay**
better than the stock cooler, even on LO.

I knew I started having heat problem when I
played Command and Conquer with the game locked up and shut down. I had this
small screen popped up saying that the thing was overheating. The ATI fan was
also making really loud noise anytime I play the game.

With Silencer, I don't have that problem at all. I love this thing.

Good isn't it.

And I
know the hot air is blown out (verify that myself). One thing is I'm not sure
why they did not make the HS attach to the vent at the back. I notice that
there is a small space (1CM). Do you have the same problem ?

Yes, but I don't describe it as a "problem". The Silencer has to fit all
sorts of cards, so there's a gap with some and less gap - or no gap - with
others. But it doesn't matter, does it. Most of the hot air gets vented,
unlike the Zalman, where no hot air does.

Chip.

 

[Chip]

No, mindless as in misrepresenting both products, setting up special cases
that make one look "better" artificially, that sort of thing.


Nope. If the VGA Silencer looks to be the best solution for a particular
situation then I have no problem with using it. But it is not "better" or
"worse" than the Zalman, it's just "different".

I don't think *you* are being at all objective here.

Because I am saying the VGA Silencer is "better", your conclusion is that I
am biased. Has it occured to you that I might actually be correct and that
the VGA Silencer might actually be better? Objectively better?

Your statement that they are merely "different" implies that the VGA
Silencer has some advantages and the Zalman has others. So let me ask you,
given that the VGA Silencer *is* objectively better than the Zalman in a
number of ways, e.g. its a better overclocker, its easier to fit and its
cheaper to buy, please can you tell me in what ways (objectively) the Zalman
is better?

I can think of none. Nil, zero, nada.

And if there are none, then its a perfectly reasonable conclusion that the
VGA Silencer is better, isn't it. How can they be equal if the VGA Silencer
is better in some ways and the Zalman is better in zero ways. How can that
score them equal? Which is why I am saying its better!

When someone starts
insisting that a given solution is "better" and something else is worthless
in absolute terms rather than relative to a particular set of circumstances
then anything he says must be taken with a large dose of salt.

Unless its true, of course!!! And anyway, I never said the Zalman was
worthless. In fact I said its probably quite good too. I merely state that
there was no point in buying it since it is objectively inferior to an
alternative product that costs 1/2 the price or less.

By the way, I note another post in which someone busted his core with a VGA
Silencer trying to circumvent the little situation that it has with respect
to the shim on ATI boards--seems that despite allegedly being designed
specifically for ATI it doesn't have the raised contact area that is needed
to get good core contact without removing the shim.

I can only conclude he went mad overclocking or didn't fit it properly. It
can have nothing to do with the VGA Silencer design, see below.

The Zalman comes with
two contact plates, one of them having that raised area and clearly
designed to address that specific issue.

Seems like a nice idea, but in practice, its clearly a waste of time.
Otherwise, I (and others) wouldn't be able to run a 9700 Pro at 410MHz all
day (with the shim on) with a VGA Silencer, would we/they. If the heat
wasn't getting through to the VGA Silencer, this could never work. But it
does work, so clearly the lack of a raised area on the VGA Silencer is of no
consequence.

You can struggle all you like with this. But I maintain that the fact is
the VGA Silencer is plain and simple a better product, but because *you*
bought the Zalman, you just can't handle the fact.

Chip.

 

[Thomas Andrén]

Yes, it does. It goes out the back along with the heat from the CPU and the
power supply and the disks and everything else.


Then your case has inadequate airflow. If the "VGA Silencer" made a
difference in your internal case temperature then your case cooling was
inadequate. Mine runs 2C above ambient with the Zalman or the ATI standard
HSF. I see no need for yet another exhaust fan in any properly configured
machine.

Then you are saing that if i use a hairdryer and blow hot air in my case it
doesent matter? I have OC alot over the last 15 years and i say you are out
on thin ice...

No "cooler" except a Peltier "adds heat inside the computer". The heat is
already there.

Now you telling that peltier adds heat inside the computer, a minute ago you
said nothing could add heat inside??? Yes Peltier add heat inside a computer
and a 9800 Pro for sure adds ALOT of heat!

Well that's nice. Now, what are you going to do when the bearing in that
fan goes?

Well first of all VGA Silencer have a big low rpm fan, and running it in
Silent mode i guess im going to ditch my 9800 Pro before anything is going
to happen to the cooler. You have to add a fan to Z80 to get adequate
cooling according to reviews.

/Thomas A/