Will Prescott work on Win64?

Z

zalzon

Read an article down at The Inquirer which mentions that Prescott will
have "64 bit extentions".

I know its a 32 bit chip, but does this mean it could work on Win64 by
emulating a 64 bit processor?

We are straddling the 32 to 64 bit transition time frame here. Is it
worth waiting for 64 bit chips to establish themselves on the market
before upgrading?

Now if you listen to Intel, they say they are not sure whether 64 bit
is ready for the desktop yet. That may be because they don't have a
64 bit desktop chip yet and are trying to play down the whole affair.

But if that is the case, why are they introducing 32 bit chips like
centrino and prescott?

I don't know what to do now. I need to upgrade but I don't want to
upgrade to something which lasts only a short while before yet ANOTHER
upgrade is needed.
 
W

Wes Felter

Read an article down at The Inquirer which mentions that Prescott will
have "64 bit extentions".

That's speculative. It may or may not be true.
I know its a 32 bit chip, but does this mean it could work on Win64 by
emulating a 64 bit processor?

No. Either it's a 32-bit processor or it's a 64-bit processor.
We are straddling the 32 to 64 bit transition time frame here. Is it
worth waiting for 64 bit chips to establish themselves on the market
before upgrading?

I don't think so. If you don't need 64-bit today, you probably won't need
it next year either.
 
J

Joe Pfeiffer

Wes Felter said:
That's speculative. It may or may not be true.


No. Either it's a 32-bit processor or it's a 64-bit processor.

I'm not sure what part of his sentence you're saying "no" to here. If
the speculation that it'll have AMD's 64 bit instructions is true,
then I'd expect it could run win64. If you're objecting to his use of
the term "emulate", well, no, it would be a 64 bit processor.
I don't think so. If you don't need 64-bit today, you probably won't need
it next year either.

Until the first 64 bit killer game comes out...
 
W

Wes Felter

I'm not sure what part of his sentence you're saying "no" to here. If
the speculation that it'll have AMD's 64 bit instructions is true,
then I'd expect it could run win64. If you're objecting to his use of
the term "emulate", well, no, it would be a 64 bit processor.

Right, I was objecting to the idea of a 32-bit processor that has some
kind of 64-bit emulation.
Until the first 64 bit killer game comes out...

A game that requires more than 4GB of RAM? It will be a few years before
people will be able to afford that.
 
N

Nate Edel

In comp.arch Wes Felter said:
No. Either it's a 32-bit processor or it's a 64-bit processor.

'taint so simple.

What makes something a 64-bit processor anyway? ALU width? GP Register
width? Pointer width? Virtual address space size? Physical address space?

I've heard it said elsewhere here that the original 68000 used a 16-bit ALU,
and yet it had a 32-bit instruction set and address space (albeit with 24
external lines). Was it a 16 bit CPU, a 32 bit CPU, or a 24 bit one?
I don't think so. If you don't need 64-bit today, you probably won't need
it next year either.

Well, that I think most people would agree with that.
 
D

Douglas Siebert

Wes Felter said:
A game that requires more than 4GB of RAM? It will be a few years before
people will be able to afford that.


2GB costs only about $250 now, that's the limit of what Win32 will let
you use for a process (without PAE) isn't it? A lot of the game freaks
will spend that much for 512MB just to get memory that can be overclocked
to match their increased bus speed (perhaps a hidden advantage of Athlon
64 for gamers that this wouldn't be required?) When they are spending
$500 on a top end video card, buying extra RAM if required for the coolest
new game isn't that much of a stretch.
 
N

Neo

I've heard it said elsewhere here that the original 68000 used a 16-bit ALU,
and yet it had a 32-bit instruction set and address space (albeit with 24
external lines). Was it a 16 bit CPU, a 32 bit CPU, or a 24 bit one?

This subject arises every now and then...

What defines the bitness of an architecture is its instruction set
(ISA). The implementation details like the iwdth of the ALU or of the
internal or external data paths, the available address pins, etc, are
imaterial to the ISA.

In this specific case, the 68K had a 32-bit ISA. Period. The 68020
had 32-bit ALU and data and address paths, but the ISA was the same.

Hades! The 80486 had an 80-bit FP ALU. Was it an 80-bit chip? What
matters is its 32-bit ISA.

And this is as far as I go in this discussion.
 
N

Nate Edel

In comp.arch Neo said:
This subject arises every now and then...
What defines the bitness of an architecture is its instruction set
(ISA).

I'm inclined to agree.

But take a 32-bit ISA, add 64-bit extensions, and run those extensions on an
core with primarily 32-bit datapaths and integer execution units, and it's
starting to sound a lot like (in layman's language) what the prior person
said about Prescott "emulating 64 bits."

I have no idea if that's what Prescott does, or if it has any 64-bit
extension at all, but it's not an implausible concept.
 
A

Ancra

Read an article down at The Inquirer which mentions that Prescott will
have "64 bit extentions".

No. There's no chance for that.
Intel probably have some emergency 64cpu in secret works.
It might be that its hardware design follows the same concept as the
P4/P5. For the simple reason that this is the only architecture Intel
have been "successful" with, for quite some time. It should be
tempting for Intel to use solutions similar to the P4/P5 in a new
64-bit cpu.

Just as the Athlon64s execution unit looks somewhat like the Athlons.
But it's not the same, and doesn't contain any part from the Athlon.
Intel too will have to do it all from the ground.

It may also contain an entire P4-derivate inside, as an expedient way
of supporting 32-bit code (though that would be wasteful of
transistors). But they will have to do all the 64-bit wiring and
memorymanagement from scratch.
And that chip won't be the Prescott.

Otherwise it might be they're stuffing a P4/P5 into their ol' Itanium.
That won't be the Prescott either.

They're doing something. What, is just speculations. Their secrecy
could be indicative of that it's an AMD64 compatible cpu. They
wouldn't want people to know that, since it would clearly point to
AMD's architecture as the future for 64-bit software. That would pull
the rug on their Itanium and gain AMD more momentum in their early
start, maybe years before Intel is ready to compete.

Intels silence could also be indicative of that they actually don't
have any 64-bit act together.

I wouldn't count on Intels 86-extended 64-bit cpu being AMD
compatible. It would be nice, but I wouldn't count on it. I wouldn't
count on seeing any trace of Intels 86-64 like any time soon, either.
I know its a 32 bit chip, but does this mean it could work on Win64 by
emulating a 64 bit processor?

No. It cannot work like that. You need an ocean to navigate a
containerliner. It doesn't fit in a pond.
We are straddling the 32 to 64 bit transition time frame here. Is it
worth waiting for 64 bit chips to establish themselves on the market
before upgrading?

Computer tech shouldn't be bought before you need it. It's value drops
way too fast, just sitting there on your desk. Is that "yes" to you?

But say you want to have a fast 32-bit cpu, and are prepared to pay
$400 - $700 for it... Athlon64 happen to also be that '32-bit cpu'.
I don't know what to do now. I need to upgrade but I don't want to
upgrade to something which lasts only a short while before yet ANOTHER
upgrade is needed.

Seriously, it's the way of computing. And frequent upgrades is a cheap
way to have performance. Buying high end, 'lasts' only a couple of
months longer, and is an expensive way of staying obsolete most of the
time. The trick is to stay away from top performance. Drop down to 80%
performance and the cost is 15%. As for "short while" I think the time
until we have a desktop Windows64 and some 64-bit software might be
just about right for a cheap intermediate upgrade. Just don't go
blowing a lot of money on 3.2 GHz P4s or similar.

I wouldn't buy an Athlon64 now, because I don't buy +$400 cpus.
As always, and as a lot of people point out all the time, you can get
really decent performing cpus from AMD for $50-$90! Fabulous value.
(Why is anybody buying anything else, like. ;))

My take is that AMD aimed slightly on the side with their early
releases, A64 socket754 & AFX.socket940
Socket939 will eventually be available, and seems more desirable.
754pin A64 is still going to be much cheaper though, so I guess that's
what I'll buy, eventually. ...For starters.

I also wan't to see more about how the chipsets do. As long as there
is no OS, why hurry?


ancra
 
A

Ancra

A game that requires more than 4GB of RAM? It will be a few years before
people will be able to afford that.

First of all, I object to the idea of 4GB being expensive ;).
I think the cost of RAM and hardrives suggests that the time for
64-bit computing has come.

Secondly, you're off target a bit:
Win32 only gives an app 2GB process space, not 4.
For a win32 app to enjoy 4GB process space you need a 64-bit OS
running on a 64-bit cpu. (that certainly doesn't mean you will
automatically get that though, only what is possible).

Thirdly, we're talking process space here. Nice to have ram for it,
but not necessary for making use of it. Address space is the range of
numbers an app can have as unique byte addresses. Wherever those
addresses are mapped to. Doesn't even have to be mapped at all. Could
be just reserved blocks. Ram is nice, but doesn't limit the usefulness
of a 64-bit address space.
A 64-bit game will use, but will not require massive ram. Hd swap
space will do nicely.

Problem for a hypothetic complex VR 32-bit game, featuring a large,
open 3D-world, is that handles and objects of that world, have to be
successively destroyed, to free up space for later accessed objects.
Then later be regenerated again.
This is both wasteful and bugprone, and also puts a number of
difficulties and constraints on causality and world dynamics.
The world model would be much simpler and more powerful in a 64-bit
game.

There is also the tantalizing vision of games featuring completely new
ideas. Not seen or contemplated yet, due to 32-bit addressing not
allowing the models.

Sofar though, the Athlon64s are just fast 32-bit cpus. Nicely priced
too (as fast 32-bits). But we need 64-bit OS and apps to get 64-bit
computing.

The good news is that MS have finally committed themselves bigtime to
AMD's 86-64. They will release W2003 server in AMD64 standard and
enterprise editions supporting single and multiple cpus, ASAP.
I get a strong feeling that MS is experiencing a demand for an OS for
Opterons from customers, and less interest in their Itanium version.
Well they backed the wrong horse. Now that they've figured that out,
we should see some action.

The bad news is that it still won't happen until a good bit into 2004,
and there is no word of when the desktop WinXP-AMD64 will be out.

So when will the apps and games come?
Much as I want AMD to have success with their Athlon64, and as much as
I think the time of 64-bit computing is ASAP, I agree with your
assessment that we're in for bit of waiting. Unfortunatly.


ancra
 
A

Ancra

'taint so simple.

- Oh, yes it actually is!
What makes something a 64-bit processor anyway? ALU width? GP Register
width? Pointer width? Virtual address space size? Physical address space?

Of the above? - "Virtual address space size" comes closest. Though
that is something the OS decides. Windows64 'only' gives us 4
Terabytes, while 64 bits are potentially good for 16 Exobytes.

There's no cloudy mystery about 64-bitness.
Bits can of course be used to refer to the length of many various
things.

But when it comes to 16-32-64 bit processors there's no doubt about
what it refers to.
- It's the length of the native machine code instructions
addressfield.
It's this property that confers the capability of the cpu. It's that
simple.

Or hard, which is why a 32-bit cpu can never become a 64-bit. Nor even
be able to 'emulate' a 64-bit. You have to feature a complete new set
of 64-bit instructions, and a complete new memory management.
That exactly means an entirely new cpu family from the ground up.
I've heard it said elsewhere here that the original 68000 used a 16-bit ALU,
and yet it had a 32-bit instruction set and address space (albeit with 24
external lines). Was it a 16 bit CPU, a 32 bit CPU, or a 24 bit one?

- 32-bit! - And no doubt about it at all!

16 bit ALU was only a transistor count and performance decision. Later
68k members got 32-bit ALU. Not that it means anything, other than
using more available transistors for better efficiency.
Today, with our piped, cached and branchpredicted cpus, we would talk
about the depth and width, in terms of pipes, of the execution unit.
It still remains the question of how many transistors are going to be
used for a diminishing return in performance.

The 68000 featured 32-bit registers, and used 32-bit addressing
instructions. And it's the latter part that makes it a true, bona fide
32-bit cpu. As all 68k family members.

It could also use half registers as 16-bit registers, and indexed
16-bit addressing. In those days, 16-bit integers and short pointers
weren't obscene.

It also used a 16-bit external databus and a 24-bit external
addressbus. Again, other 68k members employed anything from 8-bit to
64 bit buses, most of them featuring 32-bit. That happen to be just as
irrelevant for their 32-bitness as the fact that the '386SX (another
32-bit cpu) also used 16-bit databus. That the '286 (a 16-bit cpu)
used 24-bit addressbus. That the 8086 (a 16-bit cpu) had 20 bit
addressbus. That the 8088 (16-bit) featured 8-bit databus. That the
Pentiums (32-bit cpus) have 36-bit physical addressing and 64-bit
databus. That the AthlonFX (64-bit) feature 128-bit databus and
registers, and 40-bit addressbus. Etc ad nauseum.

The integer registers should be least as wide as instruction address.
And existing registers cannot shrink. Nor can any previously existing
instruction use the extension of widened registers or any additional
registers.

Apart from that, these physical 'width'-thingys are all minor
architectual concerns. Something that can easily be changed on the
next member of the family (as is usually also the case), without
anyone really noticing. It's just a matter of economy and what can be
made effective use of.

The instructions address length, on the other hand, is fundamental. It
means different instruction sets and memoryhandling == completely
different cpu == completely different OS == completely different
software == completely different capabilities.
32-bit backwards compatibility is something that has to be
painstakingly designed into the cpu as an additional feature.
Just as the '386 did with 16-bit compatibility.

Still, expect a massive smokescreen about 'bits' from Intel and
affiliated journalists. They've already started.


ancra
 
B

Bill Bradley

Ancra said:
The bad news is that it still won't happen until a good bit into 2004,
and there is no word of when the desktop WinXP-AMD64 will be out.

Unofficially first quarter 2004. I've got a beta copy of it from
Microsoft right here: Microsoft Windows XP 64-bit Edition Version 2003,
Beta 1 Build 1069. It was running quite happily on the systems at the
launch on Sept 23rd. It was hapily running the current build of
American Army (64-bit), and Unreal Tournament 2004 at the San Fransico
launch event [not just for the event but for seven hours solid at the
vendors demo area]. The only complaint that I've heard is the lack of
64-bit drivers from the hardware vendors.
So when will the apps and games come?

America's Army already runs 64-bit, and talking to the lead programmer
from Epic Games (whose name escapes me at the moment) the new UT 2004
has been running on the 64bit OS (on Opteron systems), which they were
pretty happy about since the "current" unoptimized builds still ran at
playable speed which was not the case with previous versions of the
software.
Much as I want AMD to have success with their Athlon64, and as much as
I think the time of 64-bit computing is ASAP, I agree with your
assessment that we're in for bit of waiting. Unfortunatly.

From what I saw at the Athlon 64 launch and talking to vendors
afterward I'd bet on <6 months for the first wave.

Bill
 
N

Nate Edel

In comp.arch Ancra said:
As always, and as a lot of people point out all the time, you can get
really decent performing cpus from AMD for $50-$90! Fabulous value.
(Why is anybody buying anything else, like. ;))

Personally, I'd buy a P4/2.4C -- 25% more memory bandwidth than a comparable
AMD chip, and only a bit more expensive than the comparable AMD chips (about
$180 vs. about $150). AMD really needs to push the faster FSB into a rev of
cheaper chips than the 3200+.
754pin A64 is still going to be much cheaper though, so I guess that's
what I'll buy, eventually. ...For starters.

I heard at one point a long while ago that AMD was considering a generation
of 32-bit Athlons on 754. Don't know if that's gone anywhere.
 
J

John Kang

Douglas said:
2GB costs only about $250 now, that's the limit of what Win32 will let
you use for a process (without PAE) isn't it? A lot of the game freaks
will spend that much for 512MB just to get memory that can be overclocked
to match their increased bus speed (perhaps a hidden advantage of Athlon
64 for gamers that this wouldn't be required?) When they are spending
$500 on a top end video card, buying extra RAM if required for the coolest
new game isn't that much of a stretch.

Well, being one of these people, I can tell you that having more than 1
GB does not increase modern gaming performance. In fact, more than
512MB usually does nothing. We spend $500 on a video card and $300 for
fast memory because those things improve gaming performance. Having
more than 2GB of memory will not help gaming performance for a long
time. Not until games come out that saturate that much memory. Last I
heard, none of the next-gen games (Doom3, Half-life 2, etc) will.
 
J

John Kang

Tarjei said:
According to
http://firingsquad.com/hardware/building_gaming_opteron_2003_Part2/page14.as
p a machine having 4GB might be slower than a machine having 1GB. Looks like
speed goes down as you add more memory slots. At least if you have an AMD
CPU.

greetings,

I think this issue was specific to the P4 and the use of unregistered
memory. That review showed that when using registered DIMMS on an
Opteron, having lots of memory does not decrease performance.
 
J

John Kang

Neo said:
This subject arises every now and then...

What defines the bitness of an architecture is its instruction set
(ISA). The implementation details like the iwdth of the ALU or of the
internal or external data paths, the available address pins, etc, are
imaterial to the ISA.

In this specific case, the 68K had a 32-bit ISA. Period. The 68020
had 32-bit ALU and data and address paths, but the ISA was the same.

Hades! The 80486 had an 80-bit FP ALU. Was it an 80-bit chip? What
matters is its 32-bit ISA.

And this is as far as I go in this discussion.

Only the x87 FP registers were 80-bits. The GPR's were still 32-bit.
Besides, how do you define "32-bit ISA"? How much memory it can
address? Default integer operand size? IA-32 still considers a 16-bit
integer as a "word", does that mean it's still a 16-bit ISA?
 
D

Dan Pop

In said:
Only the x87 FP registers were 80-bits. The GPR's were still 32-bit.
Besides, how do you define "32-bit ISA"? How much memory it can
address? Default integer operand size?

The size of the GPRs is what usually defines the size of an architecture.
An 8080 can directly address 64 kB of memory, yet it's still an 8-bit
processor.
IA-32 still considers a 16-bit
integer as a "word", does that mean it's still a 16-bit ISA?

In many cases, "word" is an almost meaningless term. It's not only IA-32,
but also the now defunct VAX architecture specification that uses 16-bit
"words", for backward compatibility purposes (the VAX architecture was an
extension of the enormously popular PDP-11 architecture, which had a
genuine 16-bit word).

Actually, there are precious few architectures still in use where the
term "word" really make sense, and they're usually used for embedded
control purposes (mostly DSP chips).

"Word" was traditionally related to the memory system of the
architectures that didn't support byte addressing, i.e. each memory
address was a word address. Examples include IBM architectures prior
to the 360, PDP architectures prior to the 11, CDC and traditional
Cray supercomputers. Popular word sizes of these architectures: 12,
18, 36, 60 and 64 bits. With one exception (the 64-bit words of the
Cray vector processors), these sizes are not powers of two.

Dan
 
A

Ancra

According to
http://firingsquad.com/hardware/building_gaming_opteron_2003_Part2/page14.as
p a machine having 4GB might be slower than a machine having 1GB. Looks like
speed goes down as you add more memory slots. At least if you have an AMD
CPU.

Not at all. There is much to say about this, but I'll try to be brief.

First of all, you're talking about a mobo DIMM configuration issue.
Not about a cpu brand or memory size issue. You want two symmetrical
DIMMS for maximum performance.

As someone else have already pointed out, Intel is also affected. Both
i865PE and i875P slows down with more than 2 DIMMs.
As you also see in the tests, the effect on the Athlon64 is mostly
minimal and affects only bandwidth. Compare that to the dramatic loss
of performance for the P4, due to increased latency, when exceeding
1GB ram! But - GEE! - I mean REALLY!

Neither AthlonFX or Opteron is affected at all, so on the contrary,
AMD seem definitly to be the way to go. ;)

BTW. What I really liked about the site you guided me to, was the way
they exposed SiSoft Sandra grossly misleading synthetic benchmarks.

Then, 64-bit computing isn't immediatly about memory performance or
even about direct performance at all. It's about capability.
Performance will follow.


ancra
 
A

Ancra

Ancra said:
The bad news is that it still won't happen until a good bit into 2004,
and there is no word of when the desktop WinXP-AMD64 will be out.

Unofficially first quarter 2004. I've got a beta copy of it from
Microsoft right here: Microsoft Windows XP 64-bit Edition Version 2003,
Beta 1 Build 1069. It was running quite happily on the systems at the
launch on Sept 23rd. It was hapily running the current build of
American Army (64-bit), and Unreal Tournament 2004 at the San Fransico
launch event [not just for the event but for seven hours solid at the
vendors demo area]. The only complaint that I've heard is the lack of
64-bit drivers from the hardware vendors.

[Jumpin up and down] - Exciting!
America's Army already runs 64-bit, and talking to the lead programmer
from Epic Games (whose name escapes me at the moment) the new UT 2004
has been running on the 64bit OS (on Opteron systems), which they were
pretty happy about since the "current" unoptimized builds still ran at
playable speed which was not the case with previous versions of the
software.


From what I saw at the Athlon 64 launch and talking to vendors
afterward I'd bet on <6 months for the first wave.

- Really good news! It's really happening then? ...But everything
takes longer than you think, even if you consider that everything
takes longer than you think, even if you consider...


ancra
 

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