Why choose SQL Express over Access?

[steve]

Frank,
Can you point to something that documents your assertion that SQL Express
does not run on XP Home? Runs fine on my XP Home test machine....Haven't
been able to test access across a network to SQL/e on XP Home.

 

[Sahil Malik [MVP C#]]

Well, both INETA speakers and MVPs are unbiased.

I'm an INETA speaker and MVP myself, and nearly don't have the same pedigree
as Bill Vaughn, but I must agree with his views on Microsoft.

- Sahil Malik
http://www.winsmarts.com
http://blah.winsmarts.com

 

[Sahil Malik [MVP C#]]

SQL Express will run on XP Media center.


--

- Sahil Malik
http://www.winsmarts.com
http://blah.winsmarts.com

 

[ljh]

Of course you must....

Well, both INETA speakers and MVPs are unbiased.

I'm an INETA speaker and MVP myself, and nearly don't have the same
pedigree as Bill Vaughn, but I must agree with his views on Microsoft.

- Sahil Malik
http://www.winsmarts.com
http://blah.winsmarts.com

 

[William \(Bill\) Vaughn]

Excuse me? Are you accusing us of something? I would make pretty sure you're
on solid ground before impugning our honesty in a public forum. If you
really knew me, if you really understood where I have stood for the last 20
years, you would not be saying anything about how I coddle Microsoft or show
bias toward their products. From time to time I have been highly critical of
Microsoft--even as an employee (for 14 years). Microsoft has not always
liked to hear what I have said, but they have listened--just as they listen
to every one with any credibility at all. I for one have just finished my
11th book on this subject and yes, this book like all the others talks about
what works and what does not.

Do you think you fall into that category?

--
____________________________________
William (Bill) Vaughn
Author, Mentor, Consultant
Microsoft MVP
INETA Speaker
www.betav.com/blog/billva
www.betav.com
Please reply only to the newsgroup so that others can benefit.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
__________________________________

 

[Sahil Malik [MVP C#]]

Bill, it took me a while to realize this, but I think you're wrestling with
a pig. He is enjoying it, and you're getting dirty.

- Sahil Malik
http://www.winsmarts.com
http://blah.winsmarts.com

 

[_davis]

Of course you must....

Just curious...what are you getting out of this? Mr Malik and Mr
Vaughn have complete credibility and both have written books on
database programming. Still, you've answered your own question: You
should use Access. Just make sure it's not Microsoft Access cause
that would be bad.

 

[ljh]

Excuse me? Are you accusing us of something?

You accussed me, Billy. Remember this...."If you just want to bash
Microsoft, find some other forum."?

You take an accusatory tone with me. You attack my posts without reading
them (if you had, you'd have seen that the theme here was not one of "just
bashing Microsoft"). And, YOU have the audacity to ask me if I am
questioning YOUR integrity?

Well, I am questioning your integrity.

Not because I have reason to outside what you have posted here, but simply
because of the tact that you used when accusing me of "just bashing
Microsoft". That's something that only a Microsoft zealot could have
possibly read into this entire thread.

You are acting like a zealot. Your reaction to my dissappointment with
Microsoft's decision-to-date on SQL\e and the typical way in which they
price thier products out of reach of many small businesses was one of
etremism and showed a complete lack of understanding of my comments as they
related to the entire thread.

I accept you at your word that you call Microsoft out when need be (as
don't have time to verify this myself). But, for you to characterize my
entire thread as simple "Microsoft bashing" because I expressed my
unflattering opinions about some of Microsoft's actions is both
unprofessional and dishonest.

I am not familiar with your writings. They may be quite well done.
However, they are irrelevant when your actions here have shown you to be
quick to jump to conclusions of "Microsoft bashing" based on less than 10%
of the content of the thread.

Publishing a book niether makes you a scholar nor an adept teacher. It
makes you an author. My congratulations on your publishing feats. I hope
you published works better thought out than your biting response to a single
post of mine.

As for answering your question ("Do you think that you fall into that
category?")... This is both arrogant and ignorant at the same time. Quite
a feat for a published author.

I look forward to your thoughts on anything that I post. But, please do not
characterize me or my threads based on a minority of the postings therein.

Jim Hubbard

 

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

Just curious......can you tell me a situation where using XML as a
datatype would come into play in a database application?

Why would you store XML in its native format instead of breaking it
down into its component fields for storage and seaarch?

In general, people should avoid Xml typed fields to avoid
'table-in-table' syndrome, which effectively kills your relational
model. However there are situations where it can be helpful. One is the
situation where the user of your software is able to add custom fields
to a table. You can store these in XML and query them as well (although
it's not ideal, I admit)

Another can be to store xml data in an xml column, although you can
also use a Text column for that if you want to of course.

FB

application >> to work) over the simplicity of an Access database
which has no >> dependencies?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead developer of LLBLGen Pro, the productive O/R mapper for .NET
LLBLGen Pro website: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

You accussed me, Billy. Remember this...."If you just want to bash
Microsoft, find some other forum."?

You take an accusatory tone with me. You attack my posts without
reading them (if you had, you'd have seen that the theme here was not
one of "just bashing Microsoft"). And, YOU have the audacity to ask
me if I am questioning YOUR integrity?

Well, I am questioning your integrity.

I don't think that's beneficial to the discussion.

Not because I have reason to outside what you have posted here, but
simply because of the tact that you used when accusing me of "just
bashing Microsoft". That's something that only a Microsoft zealot
could have possibly read into this entire thread.

While Bill and I are often not agreeing on a subject, I can tell you
he's honest in what he says. He might have overreacted a bit in his
previous reply, but let me explain abit why I think he did and I fully
understand why he did: we as MVP's are often accused of being biased
towards Microsoft, shutting our eyes for the real problems, ignoring
the difficulties Joe Developer has to fight with because that would
hurt Microsoft etc. etc.

That's not the case, far from it. Sure, there are MVP's who only
preach 'good news' and won't say a bad word about MS or its products.
Though you won't find these MVPs in the newsgroups answering questions
of others. So please re-consider what you said.

You are acting like a zealot. Your reaction to my dissappointment
with Microsoft's decision-to-date on SQL\e and the typical way in
which they price thier products out of reach of many small businesses
was one of etremism and showed a complete lack of understanding of my
comments as they related to the entire thread.

Perhaps your 'packaging' of the 'message' wasn't matching the message
it was packaging .

I accept you at your word that you call Microsoft out when need be
(as don't have time to verify this myself). But, for you to
characterize my entire thread as simple "Microsoft bashing" because I
expressed my unflattering opinions about some of Microsoft's actions
is both unprofessional and dishonest.

Read between the lines. We have to do that with your texts as well. If
I say "This SUCKS!!!", I might be right, but no-one will listen. Trust
me, if you want to get a point across, it's of upmost importancy that
the audience of which you want the attention of is willing to read your
texts to the last line.

As for answering your question ("Do you think that you fall into that
category?")... This is both arrogant and ignorant at the same time.
Quite a feat for a published author.

I have to agree in this, but this is usenet, we all forget everyone
can read what we say from time to time.

FB

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead developer of LLBLGen Pro, the productive O/R mapper for .NET
LLBLGen Pro website: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

Why would you choose SQL Express (which requires an installed
application to work) over the simplicity of an Access database which
has no dependencies?

If you already know the answer, why ask the question?

Furthermore, MS doesn't include the JET engine anymore in the MDAC
installations (if I'm not mistaken), something to consider in your
decision. (which means effectively, that they want to keep people from
using .mdb files as a database for an application which isn't build in
MS Access, as the JET engine is only distributed with Office today (if
I'm not mistaken).

FB

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead developer of LLBLGen Pro, the productive O/R mapper for .NET
LLBLGen Pro website: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Miha Markic [MVP C#]]

Hi Sahil,

The only advantage Access gives you is "File based deployment".

You still have to install jet engine though (dll hell, registry, com, you
name it)...
Or did you mean FBD for database files?

BTW, i liked the pig anecdote

 

[ljh]

I'm not so sure about that.

Isn't the MDAC just a related set of DLLs? In many cases, you can simply
place dependent DLLs in the same directory as your exe and all will run just
fine - no registering amything and no chance that "DLL Hell" (which I don't
believe exists) can getcha.

I may try this out myself on a clean box and see......

 

[ljh]

I don't think that's beneficial to the discussion.

You're right. I need to do a better job of not drifting off topic.

While Bill and I are often not agreeing on a subject, I can tell you
he's honest in what he says. He might have overreacted a bit in his
previous reply, but let me explain abit why I think he did and I fully
understand why he did: we as MVP's are often accused of being biased
towards Microsoft, shutting our eyes for the real problems, ignoring
the difficulties Joe Developer has to fight with because that would
hurt Microsoft etc. etc.

That's not the case, far from it. Sure, there are MVP's who only
preach 'good news' and won't say a bad word about MS or its products.
Though you won't find these MVPs in the newsgroups answering questions
of others. So please re-consider what you said.

I do not know Bill personally and I have not read any of his published works
(as I stated here). I can only go by his actions and comments here - and he
can only go by mine.

Although Bill may be well-known in ceretain circles, we all don't travel in
the same circles.

And, although it certainly doesn't look like it here, I am a HUGE fan of
Microsoft. When I speak to Linux OS and programming people, I sing the
praises of Microsoft and VB. Linux could learn a lot from Microsoft, and
would benefit greatly for it.

It has been my experience that singing Microsoft's praises in a Microsoft
newsgroup may not be the most efficient use of time. If we hated Microsoft,
we wouldn't be here trying to learn how to use the products better. But
that too is off topic. The original question is still one I am debating. I
can see strengths and weaknesses in both products. Matching the right one
with my client is the trick.

Microsoft has done many great things. For me, that makes it all the more
dissappointing to see them (IMHO) tripping at the goal line so often.

I do not envy Microsoft's position. Millions of people to satisfy - and no
way to please them all. But, I honestly believe that allowinf SQL\e to be
used under an IIS process would be something that would excite the vast
majority of them - and I cannot see a good reason for blocking that use.

Perhaps your 'packaging' of the 'message' wasn't matching the message
it was packaging .

I must learn not to respond to posts after I get very tired. I should just
go to bed and respond the next day - a little more level headed and less
sleep deprived.

When I make that mistake, I tend to (as you have seen here) write more from
emotion than fact. This is not helpful to the thread at all. I will try
and not repeat that mistake.

Read between the lines. We have to do that with your texts as well. If
I say "This SUCKS!!!", I might be right, but no-one will listen. Trust
me, if you want to get a point across, it's of upmost importancy that
the audience of which you want the attention of is willing to read your
texts to the last line.

You are right.

I have to agree in this, but this is usenet, we all forget everyone
can read what we say from time to time.

Yes they can. It may behoove us to leave a cleaner image for those that
will sort through our trash when we're gone and cannot explain our
(sometimes) thoughtless actions.

ljh

 

[ljh]

I thought of one myself.....

I am thinking of coding a data store that many store locations will use to
get national sales averages. Each location sends in its data in in XML
format and gets back the most current national averages. Keeping the XML as
presented to the service can help by finding errors in posted XML data.

It may even be useful in searching for common errors in the XML data
presented.

Thanks for your insight.

ljh

 

[ljh]

If you already know the answer, why ask the question?

Perhaps I am missing something.

Furthermore, MS doesn't include the JET engine anymore in the MDAC
installations (if I'm not mistaken), something to consider in your
decision. (which means effectively, that they want to keep people from
using .mdb files as a database for an application which isn't build in
MS Access, as the JET engine is only distributed with Office today (if
I'm not mistaken).

Good to know. Thanks.

 

[Sahil Malik [MVP C#]]

pig anecdote?

Re: the jet engine etc. - yeah but most machines have it.

- Sahil Malik
http://www.winsmarts.com
http://blah.winsmarts.com

 

[Miha Markic [MVP C#]]

pig anecdote?

"Bill, it took me a while to realize this, but I think you're wrestling with
a pig. He is enjoying it, and you're getting dirty. "

Re: the jet engine etc. - yeah but most machines have it.

It is enough if one (target) machine might be missing jet.

 

[Robert Simpson]

The latest version of the SQLite ADO.NET 2.0 Provider is 1.0.29.0. I must
really be doing something wrong if nobody knows about it. Maybe I need to
hire a PR guy

The SQLite ADO.NET 2.0 provider's VS2005 integration is pretty good (and
better than most other 3rd party databases that integrate into VS2005 -- and
the only one I know of outside MS that lets you design for the Compact
Framework), but its still incomplete. I am working on implementing all the
editors to enable you to actually design tables, indexes, keys, views etc.

Here's a movie I did demo'ing the VS2005 design-time support in the 2.0
provider for SQLite. It's based on a much older version of the program, so
isn't quite as fancy as it is now:

http://sqlite.phxsoftware.com/sqlite.wmv

And do yourself a favor -- hit the main website and read the forums! I have
lots of how-to's, and have a pretty good track record for answering
questions there

http://sqlite.phxsoftware.com

Robert Simpson
Programmer at Large

 

[ljh]

I think that what you have done thus far is fantastic. Something I probably
never will accomplish myself.

My problem is one of time constraints. I am not a DBA, don't want to be
one. I have to look after 15 small business networks and am embarking on
writing 3 applications and volunteering some time at a local center for
mentally challenged adults. Thats a lot of juggling to do every day.

The ease in which you can add a table in SQL\e (i.e. right click the db and
select Add Table - name it and start doing almost the same thing with the
columns) lends itself more to RAD development (and the juggling that I have
to do) than having to type in the create statements for each table.

I know it sounds minor, but for me it isn't. 2 of the 3 apps have no clear
documentation. Primarily becasue the client wants to develop something "as
we go along". So, (in this particular level of programming hell) the more
RAD the better.

I just like the idea of right click and add. It enables my bad coding
practices....but it keeps the clients happy - esp during prototyping.

Does that make designing an app while you code it a good example to follow?
Certainly not! It is atrocious. But, it is my task for one of my larger
clients.

The small size of SQLite is amazing. And the ease of deployment is a dream
come true.

I'll keep playing with it and see what I can come up with......

Thanks for all of your hard work!

ljh