why are scanned images soft?

F

frankg

Why are scanned images invariably soft (out-of-focus)? It doesnt matter if
the original is film (neg or transparency) or print.Can you explain it ?

I have a good film scanner (Polaroid 120) and Silverfast Ai software (which
has a focus on/off).
My flatbed is somewhat older (Microtek Scanmaker III with Scanwizard).

When I open the images in Photoshop I'm always disappointed in how 'soft'
they are and they Always need sharpening applied.
 
B

buhle

Why are scanned images invariably soft (out-of-focus)? It doesnt matter if
the original is film (neg or transparency) or print.Can you explain it ?

Several potential explanations:

1. The effective resolution of the scanners is low (poorly sampling
the actual image).

2. The focal plane of the scanner is not exactly aligned with the
plane of the film.

3. You may have distorting layers (glass) that diffuse or distort
(astigmatism) between the sensor and the film.

4. Some combination of the above.

I think #3 is unlikely as you get the same thing with both scanner. It
is more likely to be #1 (my bet) and possibly #2.

How can you tell....use a grating image and perform a resolution test
(e.g. calculate the modulation transfer function and see where the
falloff is). This will also tell you if the focus is off.
 
F

frankg

How can you tell....use a grating image and perform a resolution test
(e.g. calculate the modulation transfer function and see where the
falloff is). This will also tell you if the focus is off.
Can you explain or point to some more direction here - layman's steps
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

frankg said:
Can you explain or point to some more direction here - layman's
steps

A simple way is to make a photograph of an inkjet print of one of the
following radial grating targets, printed at the indicated ppi
resolution:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/Jtf60cy-100mm-600ppi.gif
for
HP or Canon inkjet printers and,
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/Jtf60cy-100mm-720ppi.gif
for
Epson printers.

When printed without enhancements/color management on glossy paper it
produces a 100x100mm
test target which can be easily used for quantifying the limiting
resolution for a target contrast of say 100:1.
Shooting distance is not critical, something like between 50-100x the
focal length will be adequate. The center blur diameter for a given
well focused lens/film combination is always the same, regardless of
distance!

You'll see that the modulation (~contrast between max/min) reduces as
the details get smaller, until the detail is limited by
resolution/diffraction. When the film image of the target is scanned,
the scanner will further limit the resolution. For a document scanner
you'll need a miniature version of such a target, those targets are
not cheap.

Bart
 
F

frankg

steps

A simple way is to make a photograph of an inkjet print of one of the
following radial grating targets, printed at the indicated ppi
resolution:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/Jtf60cy-100mm-600ppi.gif
for
HP or Canon inkjet printers and,
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/Jtf60cy-100mm-720ppi.gif
for
Epson printers.

When printed without enhancements/color management on glossy paper it
produces a 100x100mm
test target which can be easily used for quantifying the limiting
resolution for a target contrast of say 100:1.
Shooting distance is not critical, something like between 50-100x the
focal length will be adequate. The center blur diameter for a given
well focused lens/film combination is always the same, regardless of
distance!

You'll see that the modulation (~contrast between max/min) reduces as
the details get smaller, until the detail is limited by
resolution/diffraction. When the film image of the target is scanned,
the scanner will further limit the resolution. For a document scanner
you'll need a miniature version of such a target, those targets are
not cheap.

Bart

Thanks for this info - I will try to do it
 
F

frankg

steps

A simple way is to make a photograph of an inkjet print of one of the
following radial grating targets, printed at the indicated ppi
resolution:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/Jtf60cy-100mm-600ppi.gif
for
HP or Canon inkjet printers and,
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/Jtf60cy-100mm-720ppi.gif
for
Epson printers.

When printed without enhancements/color management on glossy paper it
produces a 100x100mm
test target which can be easily used for quantifying the limiting
resolution for a target contrast of say 100:1.
Shooting distance is not critical, something like between 50-100x the
focal length will be adequate. The center blur diameter for a given
well focused lens/film combination is always the same, regardless of
distance!

You'll see that the modulation (~contrast between max/min) reduces as
the details get smaller, until the detail is limited by
resolution/diffraction. When the film image of the target is scanned,
the scanner will further limit the resolution. For a document scanner
you'll need a miniature version of such a target, those targets are
not cheap.

Bart
The links appear to be dead (I have Epson)
 
F

frankg

Apparently they are, although the files are there. Ah, I see a small
typo on my part:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/Jtf60cy-100mm_600ppi.gif
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/Jtf60cy-100mm_720ppi.gif
are the correct ones, sorry for the mistake.

Bart
Thank you for the new links. I have saved the 2nd one as I have an epson. I
just opened it in photoshop and and printed it (720dpi) straight (no
enhancements) on glossy epson photo paper and produced a 4 inch (100mm)
square target image.

Now what ? I should photograph this on film ? Using a 35mm format standard
(50mm) lens, as close as possible to fill the frame? And then scan the film
? I dont follow what Iam looking out for ?
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
Thank you for the new links. I have saved the 2nd one as I have an
epson. I just opened it in photoshop and and printed it (720dpi)
straight (no enhancements) on glossy epson photo paper and
produced a 4 inch (100mm) square target image.

Good, that seems to have worked as intended.
Now what ? I should photograph this on film ? Using a 35mm
format standard (50mm) lens, as close as possible to fill the
frame? And then scan the film ? I dont follow what Iam looking
out for ?

You use a film based camera to shoot an image of the target (digital
camera also works, but scanning the image is bit hard ;-)), and try to
avoid reflections of bright objects and sky. The goal is to project
such a small version of the target on film, that the center detail is
smaller than the resolution limit of the camera lens + film.

Depending on the lens+film that will probably be the case when you
shoot the target at a distance of approx. 50x the focal length you use
(exact distance is not very critical). Maybe 25x times focal length is
enough, but around 50x will always work for film. Use a tripod to make
sure the image doesn't suffer from camera shake. If the camera is an
SLR and has a mirror lock-up, even better results can be expected if
you use that. A low ISO film (e.g. Provia or Velvia) will give the
sharpest results, but you can also use the film you normally use (that
won't stress test the scanner, but will give an impression of what
resolution limits you can normally expect).

My guess is that the resolution of your target on paper will be around
5-10 cycles/mm, so if you reduce that with a factor of 50, then the
finest detail will become 250+ cycles/mm, which is too fine for your
lens to resolve, let alone in combination with film. That will ensure
that the resulting image will be resolution limited by the lens and
film.

After processing you will now have a target for scanning, and you know
the scanner is unlikely to be confronted with finer image detail than
in your test film. If everything went as it should, it is now possible
to judge the resolving power of your scanner, by measuring the
diameter of the central (approx. circular) blur. The diameter in
pixels can be calculated into a cycles/mm value as follows:
60 / pi / (pixels x 25.4 / ppi) = cycles/mm (similar to line pairs per
millimetre).

The number you find then indicates the limiting resolution for your
image chain. If the target and the scanner are very good, you could
reach something like 70-80 cy/mm. A modest scanner would reach perhaps
30 cy/mm. If the scanner can be focused, you can test how consistent
that is by making several cropped scans and compare.

You will see that the contrast/modulation towards the center will
reduce from paper-white to ink-black sinusoidal waves to more or less
uniform gray (zero modulation). The decline could be measured and put
in a graph which would become an MTF curve, but that takes quite a
bit of work. Just the limiting resolution will suffice for your goal
of quantifying the scanner limits, and determine if it is out of specs
or not.

To give you a typical idea of what my imaging chain produces:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/100mmJTF20004.png (it was shot with
a telelens and from a bit closer because I didn't have enough room to
back up). My scanner scans with 5400 ppi, so your image will probably
be a lot smaller. You are looking at approx. 3.4mm of film, neither
sharpening nor noise reduction was applied.

Bart
 
F

frankg

Good, that seems to have worked as intended.


You use a film based camera to shoot an image of the target (digital
camera also works, but scanning the image is bit hard ;-)), and try to
avoid reflections of bright objects and sky. The goal is to project
such a small version of the target on film, that the center detail is
smaller than the resolution limit of the camera lens + film.

Depending on the lens+film that will probably be the case when you
shoot the target at a distance of approx. 50x the focal length you use
(exact distance is not very critical). Maybe 25x times focal length is
enough, but around 50x will always work for film. Use a tripod to make
sure the image doesn't suffer from camera shake. If the camera is an
SLR and has a mirror lock-up, even better results can be expected if
you use that. A low ISO film (e.g. Provia or Velvia) will give the
sharpest results, but you can also use the film you normally use (that
won't stress test the scanner, but will give an impression of what
resolution limits you can normally expect).

My guess is that the resolution of your target on paper will be around
5-10 cycles/mm, so if you reduce that with a factor of 50, then the
finest detail will become 250+ cycles/mm, which is too fine for your
lens to resolve, let alone in combination with film. That will ensure
that the resulting image will be resolution limited by the lens and
film.

After processing you will now have a target for scanning, and you know
the scanner is unlikely to be confronted with finer image detail than
in your test film. If everything went as it should, it is now possible
to judge the resolving power of your scanner, by measuring the
diameter of the central (approx. circular) blur. The diameter in
pixels can be calculated into a cycles/mm value as follows:
60 / pi / (pixels x 25.4 / ppi) = cycles/mm (similar to line pairs per
millimetre).

The number you find then indicates the limiting resolution for your
image chain. If the target and the scanner are very good, you could
reach something like 70-80 cy/mm. A modest scanner would reach perhaps
30 cy/mm. If the scanner can be focused, you can test how consistent
that is by making several cropped scans and compare.

You will see that the contrast/modulation towards the center will
reduce from paper-white to ink-black sinusoidal waves to more or less
uniform gray (zero modulation). The decline could be measured and put
in a graph which would become an MTF curve, but that takes quite a
bit of work. Just the limiting resolution will suffice for your goal
of quantifying the scanner limits, and determine if it is out of specs
or not.

To give you a typical idea of what my imaging chain produces:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/100mmJTF20004.png (it was shot with
a telelens and from a bit closer because I didn't have enough room to
back up). My scanner scans with 5400 ppi, so your image will probably
be a lot smaller. You are looking at approx. 3.4mm of film, neither
sharpening nor noise reduction was applied.

Bart
Oh my...I think you are losing me ......but let's see...

I have shot the printed target with my ususal film (mirror lock-up etc.) and
will get it back in a day or two. I tried it with 2 separate lenses. But I
think I was closer than 50x the focal length, which for a 50mm lens (2
inches) wiuld be100 inches away (250cm). I was only about 36 inches between
target print and film plane.

Then I will have the target for scanning. I will then try to follow yor
directions from " ...measuring the diameter of the central (approx.
circular) blur". How do you define the edge of the blur to measure ? Can
this be done in Photoshop? Then multiply that 'blur diameter' number of
pixels by 25.4 and divide by the scanning resolution (4000dpi), and this
equals the limiting resolution which hopefully equals about 70-80 cy/mm - is
this correct ?
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
Oh my...I think you are losing me ......but let's see...

Hang on...
I have shot the printed target with my ususal film (mirror lock-up etc.)
and will get it back in a day or two. I tried it with 2 separate
lenses.

That's good, you'll be able and compare which one is sharper (assuming
best focus and e.g. f/8 aperture).
But I think I was closer than 50x the focal length, which for a 50mm
lens (2 inches) wiuld be100 inches away (250cm). I was only about
36 inches between target print and film plane.

That's probably too close. That's about a 1:17 magnification factor,
so the target image may be something like 86 - 172 cy/mm. If you are
lucky then the printer produced a higher resolution. You can check
that with a good loupe and an accurate measuring tool. 60 / pi /
diameter = cy/mm, if the diameter on target is measured in millimetres
(3mm would give 6.4 cy/mm, 2mm would give 9.5 cy/mm, see if you are
lucky and don't need to reshoot. I'd aim at a resolution in excess of
200 cy/mm after reduced projection. The requirement for film is more
strict than for most DSLRs (the sensors of the better DSLRs max out at
some 70 to 80 cy/mm, and film can exceed 100-110 cy/mm).

Another reason why a larger distance would be better is because many
lenses have better performance when not focused too close by (with the
possible exception of dedicated Macro lenses).
Then I will have the target for scanning. I will then try to follow yor
directions from " ...measuring the diameter of the central (approx.
circular) blur". How do you define the edge of the blur to measure ?

Okay, this is where people may smuggle, and fool nobody but
themselves...
Depending on the tools you have, e.g. Photoshop allows to place guides
in the center of the target image, and from there draw circles of a
given diameter. Alternatively you could use a ruler in your
photoeditor that measures in pixels. Look for the spot e.g. from left
to right, where you can no longer see any separation from what's
supposed to be white to what's supposed to be black. It's usually
there at one pixel position and gone at the next, gone under in
graininess. From there trace to the right untill there is a barely
noticable separation again. You may be able to smuggle 1 or 2 pixels
(depending on whether the graininess helps or not), but drawing a
circle or ellipse will average those 'opportunities' out. Ellipses
usually indicate either a lens 'issue' or camera shake / mirror slap.
Can this be done in Photoshop? Then multiply that 'blur diameter'
number of pixels by 25.4 and divide by the scanning resolution
(4000dpi), and this equals the limiting resolution which hopefully
equals about 70-80 cy/mm - is this correct ?

Yes (but don't forget '60 / pi'), it's as simple as that ( cy/mm = 60
/ pi / (pixels * (25.4 / 4000) ) if the scan is done at 4000 ppi ).
For all practical purposes you can also replace '60 / pi' with 19.1 .
For an LS-4000 scanner I've measured a number in the lower 60s, but
that was a single scanner which may or may not have been typical for
its class.

Once captured on film, the blur diameter will be the same diameter,
regardless of the original shooting distance used (assuming the
target/printer resolution and reduction factor are posing enough of a
challenge, thus the recommendation of 50x focal length). The scanner
resolution is the only variable from there on.

Bart
 
O

Olaf Ulrich

Several potential explanations:

1. The effective resolution of the scanners
is low (poorly sampling the actual image).

THAT is the main reason why digital images generally
are soft---this is not only true for scanned images but
also for the images captured by digital cameras.

Compared to the analog nature of the real world
(sub-atomic quantum theory effects set aside ;-),
any scanner resolution must be considered 'low'.
The softness is a result of the quantisation errors
that inevitably occur when an image is transferred
onto some kind of pixel grid---no matter how fine
that grid may be. Every edge in the image that is
not exactly parallel to the pixel grid lines will become
dissolved into pixel noise. The problem is not a
question of scanner quality but lies inside the nature
of the analog-to-digital conversion.

Poor scanner optics, inaccurate focus, mis-aligned
stepping during the scan process further aggravate
the problem---but even when all those real-world
nuisances were absent and the scanner worked just
perfectly, the image still would have a certain softness.

That's what digital sharpening is for.

Olaf
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Olaf Ulrich said:
THAT is the main reason why digital images generally
are soft---this is not only true for scanned images but
also for the images captured by digital cameras.

Compared to the analog nature of the real world
(sub-atomic quantum theory effects set aside ;-),
any scanner resolution must be considered 'low'.
The softness is a result of the quantisation errors
that inevitably occur when an image is transferred
onto some kind of pixel grid---no matter how fine
that grid may be. Every edge in the image that is
not exactly parallel to the pixel grid lines will become
dissolved into pixel noise. The problem is not a
question of scanner quality but lies inside the nature
of the analog-to-digital conversion.
Frankly, that is complete bunkum!

The effects you describe are specifically due to the MTF of the sampling
pixel, which is no different from the MTF of any photographic emulsion.
You are suffering from delusions if you believe that the MTF of a
photographic emulsion is limited only by quantum effects - in fact, the
MTF of the film will have degraded to zero many orders of magnitude
before the sizes of quantum level effects become remotely significant.
Furthermore, being a sinc function, the MTF of a 4000ppi scanner pixel
is significantly higher than the MTF of photographic emulsion over most
of the range of spatial resolution - as a comparison with any film data
sheet will confirm.

Quite simply, image softness is not intrinsic to digital imaging at all
and there is absolutely no reason why a digital image should be softer
at all than an analogue equivalent - and there are millions of examples
around which admirably prove this point, including almost any large
format print created these days!
Poor scanner optics, inaccurate focus, mis-aligned
stepping during the scan process further aggravate
the problem

These, and general misuse of the equipment or the use of inappropriate
equipment are the main reasons why scanned images are soft.
---but even when all those real-world
nuisances were absent and the scanner worked just
perfectly, the image still would have a certain softness.
Rubbish!

That's what digital sharpening is for.
More bunkum - digital sharpening should only pre-emphasise the image to
compensate for the MTF limitations of the display medium - which is why
digital sharpening should only ever be judged at 100% scaling or
greater.
 
O

Olaf Ulrich

Kennedy said:
Why are scanned images invariably
soft ?

Several potential explanations:
1. The effective resolution of the scanners
is low (poorly sampling the actual image).

THAT is the main reason why digital images
generally are soft---this is not only true for
scanned images but also for the images cap-
tured by digital cameras.
[...]
The softness is a result of the quantisation
errors that inevitably occur when an image
is transferred onto some kind of pixel grid ...

Frankly, that is complete bunkum!

It's not.


Kennedy said:
The effects you describe are specifically due
to the MTF of the sampling pixel, which is no
different from the MTF of any photographic
emulsion.

The MTF being less than 100 % is another inevitable
phenomenon that adds to the quantisation errors.


Kennedy said:
You are suffering from delusions if you
believe that the MTF of a photographic
emulsion is limited only by quantum effects ...

I didn't say that, and I don't believe that.


Kennedy said:
... in fact, the MTF of the film will have
degraded to zero many orders of magnitude
before the sizes of quantum level effects
become remotely significant.

I know.


Kennedy said:
Furthermore, being a sinc function ...

Sinc function?


Kennedy said:
... the MTF of a 4000 ppi scanner pixel
is significantly higher than the MTF of
photographic emulsion ...

For the single pixel, you may be right. But th problem I
was referring to involves the way how many pixels digit-
ally make up an analog image.

Even if each single pixel would represent its picture element
with an MTF of 100 %, the image composed from many of
those pixels would be soft ... unless re-sharpened.


Kennedy said:
... and there is absolutely no reason why
a digital image should be softer at all than
an analogue equivalent ...

Sorry---*this* statement is bunkum.


Kennedy said:
... and there are millions of examples around
which admirably prove this point, including
almost any large-format print created these
days!

Sure---*after* digital re-sharpening. Which, by the way,
proves that the visual softness through quantisation errors
does not mean loss of information---that is, not beyond
what the given pixel grid can hold. After all, re-sharpening
cannot re-create any information which isn't there in the
original image.

Analog and digital imaging follow different rules.


Kennedy said:
These, and general misuse of the equipment
or the use of inappropriate equipment are the
main reasons why scanned images are soft.

These make scanned images even softer---and yes, these
typically are the *real* problem in every-day scanning
work.


Kennedy said:

Ever saw an image from a high-end D-SLR with a high-
end lens that was not yet sharpened---neither in-camera
nor otherwise? These images look definitely unsharp ... so
beginners often wonder why pro-grade D-SLRs produce
less sharp photos than consumer-grade point-and-shoot
digital cameras. But actually they are not unsharp---they
just look soft which is just the way how un-manipulated
digital images appear. Looking soft is not the same as
being unsharp.

After re-sharpening it becomes obvious that those images
do contain much more information than the results from
consumer cameras ... even though they look soft at first
sight. And the reason for this kind of inevitable softness
is quantisation errors.

Olaf
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Olaf Ulrich said:
Kennedy said:
Why are scanned images invariably
soft ?

Several potential explanations:
1. The effective resolution of the scanners
is low (poorly sampling the actual image).

THAT is the main reason why digital images
generally are soft---this is not only true for
scanned images but also for the images cap-
tured by digital cameras.
[...]
The softness is a result of the quantisation
errors that inevitably occur when an image
is transferred onto some kind of pixel grid ...

Frankly, that is complete bunkum!

It's not.
Yes it is - but rather than refute every line in your argument by
technical fact and analysis, as I was sorely tempted to do, I suggest
you learn something about the physics of image formation and
reproduction before spouting forth complete rubbish and spreading
misinformation.
<Snip misinformed and completely wrong (every line!) argument.
Ever saw an image from a high-end D-SLR with a high-
end lens that was not yet sharpened---neither in-camera
nor otherwise?

Yes - and, in addition, often print completely unsharpened digital scans
from film!
These images look definitely unsharp

*IF* they are displayed at sufficient enlargement that MTF of the
individual pixels is resolvable by eye. Amazingly enough, analogue film
images also look unsharp when enlarged to the same degree - such that
the MTF of the image recorded on the film is resolvable to the eye!

That is why the "unsharp masking" process was invented - for analogue
photographic images and well before digital imaging was ever conceived!

I regularly print direct (unsharpened) cropped scans from 35mm film made
by my 4000ppi scanner at 6x4" on an Epson printer. Care to explain why
these look pin sharp?

Just in case you are having problems working this out, the Epson printer
native resolution is 720ppi (well beyond the resolution of the eye) and
the 35mm cropped image can readily meet this resolution when scaled to
6x4" print. In other words, the pixels cannot be resolved by eye and so
the image is perfectly sharp - probably sharper than a normal chemical
print of the same size, where the MTF of the paper emulsion is much
lower. So much for digital images always requiring unsharp masking!

... so
beginners often wonder why pro-grade D-SLRs produce
less sharp photos than consumer-grade point-and-shoot
digital cameras. But actually they are not unsharp---they
just look soft which is just the way how un-manipulated
digital images appear. Looking soft is not the same as
being unsharp.
No they don't - they look soft *only* when they are viewed at a large
enough scale that the pixel MTF is less than the MTF of the eye, and
analogue prints are no different. The fact that you *CAN* unsharp mask
digital images far more easily than you can with analogue film prints is
*NOT* and argument that digital media are inherently soft! Making such
an argument is direct proof that you haven't a clue what you are talking
about!
And the reason for this kind of inevitable softness
is quantisation errors.
Absolute bull!!!
 

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