Why are HDD platters harder than the floppy/ZIP discs?

G

GreenXenon

Hi:

I have a question just out of curiosity.

I notice with ZIP discs and floppies, the disc is a soft dark-brown
round film-like material that can easily be shredded -- with paper-
shredder -- to remove confidential information.

However, the magnetic platters in HDDs are much harder and metallic.

Why don't they make the hard-disc-drive platters soft like the discs
of floppies and ZIPs? It would be so much easier to remove unwanted
confidential information then. Simply unscrew the HDD, remove the soft
platters and dump them into a paper-shreder.

To remove personal info from an HDD requires that the platters be
heated beyond Curie point to eliminate all magnetic data. This is
extremely inconvenient and dangerous because of the high temperatures
required.


Thanks a bunch,

Green
 
C

chuckcar

Hi:

I have a question just out of curiosity.

I notice with ZIP discs and floppies, the disc is a soft dark-brown
round film-like material that can easily be shredded -- with paper-
shredder -- to remove confidential information.

However, the magnetic platters in HDDs are much harder and metallic.

Why don't they make the hard-disc-drive platters soft like the discs
of floppies and ZIPs? It would be so much easier to remove unwanted
confidential information then. Simply unscrew the HDD, remove the soft
platters and dump them into a paper-shreder.

To remove personal info from an HDD requires that the platters be
heated beyond Curie point to eliminate all magnetic data. This is
extremely inconvenient and dangerous because of the high temperatures
required.
Several reasons: 1. Rotation speed. Hard drives spin at several thousand
RPM (7,000-10,000), Floppies at under 500. You can actually tell by their
sound when a revolution is finished - less than a second, but definitely
discernable. 2. Head gap. Floppy disk heads sit on the order of 1 mm from
the surface of the disk and frequently make contact with it. Hard drive
heads float less than 10 millionths of an inch over the surface and due to
the speed involved will destroy the surface if they contact it. However if
you have to do more than a full format, that's only the start of your
security concerns IMHO.
 
J

J¡m ßéâñ

Because if they made "hard" drives floppy like you want they couldn't
call them HARD drives dimwit!
 
G

GreenXenon

This is down to several factors.

Typical hard drives are hermetically sealed units which allow the platters
to spin at a higher RPM than would be the case for Zip or floppy drives.

If the hard disc was "floppy", you will find that it will distort if you
start spinning it at 5,400rpm (most laptop drives) or ar 7,200rpm (most
desktop hard drives) or even at 10,000rpm (high performance drives) the
floppy media would probably tear itself to shreds.

In addition, the gap between the read/write heads and the data surface is
very tiny, so any accidental bending of the disk surface runs the risk of
the heads destroying the data surface and making the owner kiss goodbye to
many Gigs worth of data. Having a hermetically sealed disk means there is no
issues with dust as there would be on a removable disc.

In addition, if the hard disc surface was to increase in diameter with the
high rotational speed, the head positioning motors would have to have a
tracking compensation algorithm so it knew where the data had "moved" to

So thats why hard discs have glass platters with a magnetic coating on it.

zip discs and floppies spin at much lower rpm as the disk is not
hermetically sealed and to avoid disc distortion that would otherwise occur
at higher RPM and also are of lower data density compared to todays HDD's og
500Gb to 1.5TB so head positioning on zip and floppies os not as critical as
it would be on a HDD.


Is it possible to hermetically-seal the soft disc of a floppy/zip? Of
course the spin speed would still have to be slow to prevent the soft
material from being injured. Right?

Is it also true that in order to have the same amount of storage
space, that the soft floppy material would need to be bigger in
diameter than the hard platter of an HDD?

IOW, is it possible for a soft floppy disc to have the same data
density as a hard HDD platter?
 
J

Jeff Strickland

GreenXenon said:
Is it possible to hermetically-seal the soft disc of a floppy/zip?

Yes, it's possible, but why do it?



Of
course the spin speed would still have to be slow to prevent the soft
material from being injured. Right?

Is it also true that in order to have the same amount of storage
space, that the soft floppy material would need to be bigger in
diameter than the hard platter of an HDD?

Yes. The reason for speed is that the area of a data cluster can be smaller.



IOW, is it possible for a soft floppy disc to have the same data
density as a hard HDD platter?

NO, because the floppy spins at a fraction of the speed.
 
R

Rod Speed

GreenXenon wrote
I have a question just out of curiosity.

Dont forget what curiosity did to the cat.
I notice with ZIP discs and floppies, the disc is a soft dark-brown
round film-like material that can easily be shredded -- with paper-
shredder -- to remove confidential information.
However, the magnetic platters in HDDs are much harder and metallic.
Why don't they make the hard-disc-drive platters soft like the discs of floppies and ZIPs?

Because you get much higher bit densitys with rigid platters
and its completely trivial to wipe them magnetically and you
can reuse the platters when you do that.
It would be so much easier to remove
unwanted confidential information then.
Nope.

Simply unscrew the HDD, remove the soft
platters and dump them into a paper-shreder.

Much easier to use a decent security wipe like dban.
To remove personal info from an HDD requires that the platters
be heated beyond Curie point to eliminate all magnetic data.

Wrong. All you need is a decent security wipe like dban.
This is extremely inconvenient and dangerous because of the high temperatures required.

Nothing dangerous about a properly designed furnace.

And shredded floppys have actually been recovered.
 
R

Rod Speed

Stephen said:
This is down to several factors.
Typical hard drives are hermetically sealed units

No they arent. They always have a filtered vent that allows pressure equalisation.
which allow the platters to spin at a higher RPM than would be the case for Zip or floppy drives.

It isnt the spin rate that allows the much higher bit density.
If the hard disc was "floppy", you will find that it will distort if
you start spinning it at 5,400rpm (most laptop drives) or ar 7,200rpm
(most desktop hard drives) or even at 10,000rpm (high performance
drives) the floppy media would probably tear itself to shreds.
In addition, the gap between the read/write heads and the data
surface is very tiny, so any accidental bending of the disk surface
runs the risk of the heads destroying the data surface

In fact hard drive heads fly. Floppy drives heads dont.
and making the owner kiss goodbye to many Gigs worth of data. Having a hermetically sealed disk means there is no
issues with dust as there would be on a removable disc.
In addition, if the hard disc surface was to increase in diameter
with the high rotational speed, the head positioning motors would have to have a tracking compensation algorithm so it
knew where the data had "moved" to

Nope, modern hard drives have embedded servo info that handles that
fine as the platter expand and contract due to changing temperatue.
So thats why hard discs have glass platters with a magnetic coating on it.

They arent all glass.
zip discs and floppies spin at much lower rpm as the disk is not
hermetically sealed and to avoid disc distortion that would otherwise
occur at higher RPM and also are of lower data density compared to todays HDD's og 500Gb to 1.5TB so head positioning
on zip and floppies os not as critical as it would be on a HDD.

In fact the real reason is just the much higher bit densitys possible with rigid platters.
 
R

Rod Speed

chuckcar said:
Several reasons: 1. Rotation speed. Hard drives spin at several
thousand RPM (7,000-10,000), Floppies at under 500. You can actually
tell by their sound when a revolution is finished - less than a
second, but definitely discernable. 2. Head gap. Floppy disk heads
sit on the order of 1 mm from the surface of the disk and frequently
make contact with it.

In fact they always make contact and dont fly like a hard drive head does.
 
R

Rod Speed

Is it possible to hermetically-seal the soft disc of a floppy/zip?

Yes, and hard drives arent in fact hermetically sealed anyway.
Of course the spin speed would still have to be slow
to prevent the soft material from being injured. Right?

Nope. It would be possible to make flexible
material that could be spun at those speeds.
Is it also true that in order to have the same amount of storage
space, that the soft floppy material would need to be bigger in
diameter than the hard platter of an HDD?

Thats true in the sense that the bit densitys are much higher with rigid platters.
IOW, is it possible for a soft floppy disc to have
the same data density as a hard HDD platter?

Nope.

And its all completely pointless anyway when its so completely trivial to
use a decent security wipe like dban that completely wipes rigid platters.

The only thing it cant wipe is spared sectors.
 
S

sandy58

Hi:

I have a question just out of curiosity.

I notice with ZIP discs and floppies, the disc is a soft dark-brown
round film-like material that can easily be shredded -- with paper-
shredder -- to remove confidential information.

However, the magnetic platters in HDDs are much harder and metallic.

Why don't they make the hard-disc-drive platters soft like the discs
of floppies and ZIPs? It would be so much easier to remove unwanted
confidential information then. Simply unscrew the HDD, remove the soft
platters and dump them into a paper-shreder.

To remove personal info from an HDD requires that the platters be
heated beyond Curie point to eliminate all magnetic data. This is
extremely inconvenient and dangerous because of the high temperatures
required.

Thanks a bunch,

Green

Hey, GreenGlow, did you ever get answers to these questions yet?
What is Sphygmo-thermic dissociation?
When a neuron is stimulated, it depolarizes. When relaxed, it
hyperpolarizes?
They chased you from comp.dsp, sci.physics & sci.med.cardiology for
being a troll.
Grow up.....if you are ALLOWED, that is????
 
R

Rod Speed

Tim Jackson wrote
GreenXenon wrote
Very simply, you couldn't make a flexible disk flat enough.
The recording density you can get is proportional to (among other
things) the gap between the head and the disk surface. To achieve a
very small gap HDD heads work on the principle of an air bearing, and
fly by ground-effect a tiny distance (tenths of a micro-metre) from
the surface. This requires that the surface be incredibly flat, the
forces on the head are tiny so the available acceleration to track
surface variations is also tiny. To achieve this the disk has to be
very rigid, very clean, and precisely machined.
When I worked in the business and learned about the "kissing track" where the head hits the disk in order to find it,

That was never the case with PC hard drives.
or lands on it when it stops,

That doesnt happen anymore either.
I did the calculation of how long it would take the head to reach flying height if it approached slow enough that
ground effect would stop it before it hit, I forget the answer now but it was huge, at least weeks.

Have fun explaining how hard drive heads fly then.
They are sealed (and pressure equalised through a porous filter) to keep out dust, Typical small dust particles are in
the order of 10 micro-metres, boulder sized on the scale of the gap.
 
R

Rod Speed

Tim Jackson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
AFAIK both Contact Stop/Start (CSS) and Loading/Unloading are still in use on PC drives.

The heads are loaded and unloaded but they do not land on the platter anymore.

There was never ever any 'kissing track'. What we did see with stepper
motor head actuator drives was the heads moved against a physical
stop to recalibrate, but thats not a particular TRACK on the drive.
Certainly both have been used on PCs,

Nope, particularly that original claim about a TRACK.
with load/unload now being back in fashion,

Load and unload is an entirely separate matter to the heads
landing on the platters when the drive stops spinning. That
doesnt happen anymore, tho it did certainly happen at one
time. Thats what stiction is, the heads stuck to the platter.
and I am not aware of any "third way".

There is in the sense that the heads are retracted from the platters at shutdown.
If you have an alternative answer please share it,

I did, I told you that the first never happened, and
that heads no longer land on the platters anymore.
just denigrating my answer does not help anyone.

It does point out that your original is just plain wrong with current drives.
As to how they fly, take off from a CSS landing zone is mechanically straightforward, although a lot of research has
gone into minimizing wear during that process.

Waffle. It certainly doesnt take weeks.
Loading unloaded heads is usually done by a static ramp that feeds the head in close to the correct level to minimise
the approach distance. The mechanics of the situation require the slider to briefly kiss the disk on approach,

Like hell it does.
even if the manufacturers do not mention it,

They dont because it doesnt happen.
simply because the unloaded detent position has to be many microns from the surface to ensure separation. The ramp
can't know where the disk actually is to the necessary degree of accuracy,

The ramp is to retract the heads from the media so they no longer land on it anymore.
and ground-effect can't give you the gees to decelerate the approach speed in time.

Have fun explaining how real planes land.

That actually says that those drive DONT land the head on the platter when the drive stops, what I said.

And it does NOT say that the head touch the platter when they start flying either.
 
P

Pennywise

GreenXenon said:
I notice with ZIP discs and floppies, the disc is a soft dark-brown
round film-like material that can easily be shredded -- with paper-
shredder -- to remove confidential information.
However, the magnetic platters in HDDs are much harder and metallic.
Why don't they make the hard-disc-drive platters soft like the discs
of floppies and ZIPs? It would be so much easier to remove unwanted
confidential information then. Simply unscrew the HDD, remove the soft
platters and dump them into a paper-shreder.


A Major Difference between HDDs and Floppy Diskettes
( Or: Usually there's no need to worry about Magnets near an HDD)
http://mirror.href.com/thestarman/asm/mbr/DiskTerms.htm

Here's something I found of interest (same link):
"The platters of a common hard drive are not completely sealed off
from the outside as many people think. Therefore, you can damage an
HDD by running it at too high of an altitude where there is less air
pressure; since the heads may stay in contact with the platters or
skip up and down!" (the same force is involved or lacking due to air
pressure)
 
R

Rod Speed

Tim Jackson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Whatever you like to call it. It has nothing to do with head
calibration, it's the zone of the disk under the ramp where the heads approach the disk and establish a stable flying
height.

Wrong. There was no ramp initially, that came later to avoid
stiction which happens due to the very smooth platter and head
and the heads never ever deliberately contact the platter anymore,
because the heads dont get anywhere hear the platter from the
ramp until the platters are up to rotation speed and so the last
thing you want is a head crash. They certainly dont ever
deliberately 'the head hits the disk in order to find it'.

That is utterly garbling what actually happens even with the original PC drives.
That is load/unload.

Yes, but the heads never deliberately contact the
platter when there is a load/unload ramp in use.
That's not an alternative explanation, it's just a denial.

You're lying now.
If I'm out of date, I'm happy to learn.

You clearly arent. You just try to bullshit your way out of your predicament instead.
I admit it was the 1970's when I worked in computer design, but I do try to keep up.

You need to try much harder.
But telling me it's no longer done like that, it's now done by magic, doesn't help.

I never ever said its dont by magic, liar. That cite you posted clearly states how the
load/unload ramp works and why the heads no longer contact the platters anymore.
I trained as a physicist: I need mechanisms,

That cite you post has the mechanisms, read it again.
and numbers that add up.

Then you will have to find those for yourself.

You dont need the numbers anyway when the heads only leave the
load/unload ramp when the platter is up to speed and the heads just
fly because the platter is up to speed when the head comes off the ramp.
Not until you tell us how they get to descend from unload height to
flying height without touching the disk.

That cite you posted does that, by waiting for the platters to come
up to speed before the heads are moved off the ramp over the platters.
Do the sums yourself then.

No thanks. Its obvious to anyone with a clue that if the platters
are up to speed before the heads come off the ramp, they will
fly when they are designed to fly over the platters.
How long does it take to get from say .001" down to flying height, slow enough that ground effect stops you hitting
the disk.

Not even a second.
Sure. And when they come back off the ramp... ? How high above flying height are they? How fast are they descending?
How much time do they have to stop in?

Find that for yourself.
How far *below* flying height must they get in order to obtain a decelerative force to stop the descent in that time?

You dont know that they do ever get below flying height.
Go do the maths.

No need, whoever designed them did that and it clearly works fine.
They use observation and/or instruments to predict the approach to the ground and reduce their descent rate.

Wrong again. With light aircraft that have a significant ground effect, you
can close your eyes and use the ground effect to reduce the descent rate.

And dont try claiming it doesnt work like that, I've done it.
If they don't know their relative altitude they are rarely successful at landing on one piece.

Wrong, as always. Some like the F111 are effectively driven into the ground
and the undercarraige absorbs the remaining descent force. They dont flare.

Same thing happens with aircraft carriers, landing is more of a controlled
crash than anything else, there is no flare at all, essentially because there
isnt enough deck with an aircraft carrier and the last thing you want is flare.
And they don't fly at 1.5mm either, they fall many times that distance on landing.
Planes cannot land by ground effect alone.

Wrong, as always.
It would require an impractically shallow angle of approach even to get to a flare height of metres, never mind
millimetres.

Utterly mangled all over again. You just flare and use ground effect then.
And planes do touch the ground, they don't go to level ground-effect flight.

You can if you want to, and some have been designed to do that, usually over water.
I have yet to see a disk slider with elevator flaps, although maybe one day...

Flaps are there to increase the rate of descent and to change the attitude
when descending so you can see better. No need for them on hard drive heads.

And there is no such animal as 'elevator flaps' on a plane anyway.
It says they all did until about 1995,

It ACTUALLY says that the START on the platter when the platter isnt rotating, a different thing entirely.
which is over a decade of PCs, and contradicts what you said.

Like hell it is.
I agree it doesn't discuss the mechanism of approach to flying height, I did say that.

And you mangled it completely.
 
P

Pennywise

Rod Speed said:
Wrong. There was no ramp initially, that came later to avoid
stiction which happens due to the very smooth platter and head

No, it was the glue (used to keep the magnetic media on the aluminum
platters), would get sticky when hot, when the heads parked
themselves, the glue would cool down and the heads would become stuck.
Mostly a Seagate problem.
and the heads never ever deliberately contact the platter anymore,
because the heads dont get anywhere hear the platter from the
ramp until the platters are up to rotation speed and so the last
thing you want is a head crash. They certainly dont ever
deliberately 'the head hits the disk in order to find it'.

You should take the cover off a hard drive and watch how the heads
operate, you turn off the HD the heads move very quickly to the inner
sector, where they sit, as the heads need air to float or lift
themselves up - can't remember the effect that causes this - but it
was used on those old 8" floppies (in plastic cases).

The floppies would sag at the outside edge, and this effect would
bring the edges up and the floppy even. (No, not centrifugal force)

I've never seen a ramp, when I take a HD apart it's always the same
the heads are as close to the spindle as they can get, and all the
heads are sitting on the platters.
 
R

Rod Speed

(e-mail address removed) wrote
No, it was the glue (used to keep the magnetic media on the aluminum
platters), would get sticky when hot, when the heads parked themselves,
the glue would cool down and the heads would become stuck.

Utterly mangled all over again. There was never any 'glue
(used to keep the magnetic media on the aluminum platters)'
Mostly a Seagate problem.
You should take the cover off a hard drive and watch how the heads operate,

You should with a modern drive.
you turn off the HD the heads move very quickly to the inner sector,

Not anymore.
where they sit, as the heads need air to float or lift themselves up

The heads actually fly.
- can't remember the effect that causes this

The heads are flying.
- but it was used on those old 8" floppies (in plastic cases).

Wrong again. 8" floppys were not in plastic cases,
they were just bigger versions of 51/4" floppy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Floppy_disk_2009_G1.jpg
The floppies would sag at the outside edge, and this
effect would bring the edges up and the floppy even.

Utterly mangled all over again. they were just bigger versions of 51/4" floppys.
(No, not centrifugal force)

They just rotate inside the jacket, just like 51/4" floppys do.
I've never seen a ramp,

You need to try a modern drive.
when I take a HD apart it's always the same the heads are as close to
the spindle as they can get, and all the heads are sitting on the platters.

You need to try a modern drive.
 
P

Pennywise

Utterly mangled all over again. There was never any 'glue
(used to keep the magnetic media on the aluminum platters)

I had read and been informed that it was the glue, apparently it was
due to "lubricants used to coat the platters"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction#Hard_disk_drives

And you are right about the Ramps they are addressed in the link as
well - I do need to open up a new HD, but don't have a bad one; lot's
of old drives, less than 2gigs mostly
 
R

Rod Speed

(e-mail address removed) wrote
I had read and been informed that it was the glue,

And you're so stupid that you cant work out what is mindless silly shit and what isnt.
apparently it was due to "lubricants used to coat the platters"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction#Hard_disk_drives

Yep, for when the heads did land on the platters. They dont anymore.
And you are right about the Ramps they are addressed in
the link as well - I do need to open up a new HD, but don't
have a bad one; lot's of old drives, less than 2gigs mostly

Yeah, tho the newest of those may well have the ramps.

No point tho, wikepedia is right on that and you can find plenty of
documentation on them from the hard drive manufacturers too like
http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/tech...5825FB/$file/LoadUnload_white_paper_FINAL.pdf
 
B

- Bobb -

Here's something I found of interest (same link):
"The platters of a common hard drive are not completely sealed off
from the outside as many people think. Therefore, you can damage an
HDD by running it at too high of an altitude where there is less air
pressure; since the heads may stay in contact with the platters or
skip up and down!" (the same force is involved or lacking due to air
pressure)
Most drives have a warning on drive - like here:
http://www.sg2buy.com/productpic/hdd251.jpg
look lower left corner - to the right of the circle is a warning - "do not
block breather hole"
 

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