Where to get CPU fan?

T

Terry Pinnell

I'm not into home-building but hope someone here can advise me on this
please. My MESH Athlon 1800 PC has a CPU fan and it badly needs
replacing. It's a common 3-pin 12V, 60mm type. Its depth (which BTW I
never see specified) is about 12mm. That's considerably thinner than
60mm case fans, and the screw holes are much smaller diameter too.

After an hour or so of googling I've so far still not found a
replacement UK source. Can anyone help please?

Neither my nerves nor skill are up to replacing the *heat sink*. I
want to replace only the fan.
 
J

Jan Alter

I'm going through that process right now with an Athlon XP 2500 stock HSF.
Starts loud and low noise sounding and after about 5 to 10 minutes calms
down. It's just about two years old. Went through an American firm called
Cyberguys.com who have a fan at your advertised dimensions to run at 3900
rpm. I had to re-drill the holes in the plastic bores a little larger to
accommodate the screws but I got it fitted. Unfortunately it ran at 4600
rpm, which was too loud for my ears.
Option is to put a resister on it, but don't quite know which one or get
some sort of rheostat that would drop the rpms.
However, in your case you might simply try AMD and my bet is that they
have a replacement for you if it's under warranty or they can direct you to
where you can purchase a replacement. If you go to AMD's website they should
have a Euoropean number for you to call or e-mail them. Come to think of it
I e-mailed them last week (in the U.S.) and they never responded. Better
call them.
Alternative to this is to take the fan off and remove the sticker. A
drop of light machine oil can do wonders to stop bearing noise for awhile
until you get a replacement. It does work, but only for about a month, I've
found.
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Jan Alter said:
I'm going through that process right now with an Athlon XP 2500 stock HSF.
Starts loud and low noise sounding and after about 5 to 10 minutes calms
down. It's just about two years old. Went through an American firm called
Cyberguys.com who have a fan at your advertised dimensions to run at 3900
rpm. I had to re-drill the holes in the plastic bores a little larger to
accommodate the screws but I got it fitted. Unfortunately it ran at 4600
rpm, which was too loud for my ears.
Option is to put a resister on it, but don't quite know which one or get
some sort of rheostat that would drop the rpms.
However, in your case you might simply try AMD and my bet is that they
have a replacement for you if it's under warranty or they can direct you to
where you can purchase a replacement. If you go to AMD's website they should
have a Euoropean number for you to call or e-mail them. Come to think of it
I e-mailed them last week (in the U.S.) and they never responded. Better
call them.
Alternative to this is to take the fan off and remove the sticker. A
drop of light machine oil can do wonders to stop bearing noise for awhile
until you get a replacement. It does work, but only for about a month, I've
found.

Thanks Jan. Yes, I've re-oiled it (again!) and for the moment all
seems well. But I really must replace it this time <g>.
 
S

Steve Walker

Terry said:
I'm not into home-building but hope someone here can advise me on
this please. My MESH Athlon 1800 PC has a CPU fan and it badly
needs replacing. It's a common 3-pin 12V, 60mm type. Its depth
(which BTW I never see specified) is about 12mm. That's
considerably thinner than 60mm case fans, and the screw holes are
much smaller diameter too.

After an hour or so of googling I've so far still not found a
replacement UK source. Can anyone help please?

Neither my nerves nor skill are up to replacing the *heat sink*. I
want to replace only the fan.

Then you'll probably have to be prepared to do some adapting - dremel &
cable-ties etc. If you're going to go that way, and you've got the room in
your case, I recommend getting a 60mm-80mm funnel adaptor and installing an
80mm fan - quieter and much more effective cooling.

But honestly, it would be easier to just swap the HSF as a unit.
 
N

Noozer

Remove the fan as you plan, take it to your local PC shops and see if the
have a match. A taller fan will be fine as long as there's nothing that will
get in the way.

It would be simpler to call around and find a shop that will install the
heatsink for free if you purchase it from them.
 
G

GSV Three Minds in a Can

Bitstring <[email protected]>, from the wonderful person
Steve Walker said:
Then you'll probably have to be prepared to do some adapting - dremel &
cable-ties etc. If you're going to go that way, and you've got the room in
your case, I recommend getting a 60mm-80mm funnel adaptor and installing an
80mm fan - quieter and much more effective cooling.

Yep, or even bigger. However if the low profile fan was there for a
reason (small and obstructed case) than an 80mm fan with a funnel isn't
going to fit.
But honestly, it would be easier to just swap the HSF as a unit.

Unless the mobo is installed in some wretched mini-tower case, without a
removable mobo tray, in which case swapping the HSF requires incredible
dexterity and luck, or complete removal of the mobo from the case.
 
T

Terry Pinnell

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:
Bitstring <[email protected]>, from the wonderful person


Yep, or even bigger. However if the low profile fan was there for a
reason (small and obstructed case) than an 80mm fan with a funnel isn't
going to fit.


Unless the mobo is installed in some wretched mini-tower case, without a
removable mobo tray, in which case swapping the HSF requires incredible
dexterity and luck, or complete removal of the mobo from the case.

Thanks for the follow-ups. As mentioned, I definitely do NOT want to
replace the h/s. From research here and elsewhere I gather that a h/s
is often very hard to remove, and its replacement hard to get into
place. And that's presumably with generous space on either side which
I don't have in my PC.

I'm currently looking at this one:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=1806&doy=27m11D
But I'll have to wait until I can 'phone tomorrow,
as the spec doesn't confirm it's a 3-pin, nor show depth (or a decent
image enlargement so I can take a guess).
 
O

old jon

Write up says it`s a 2 wire Terry.
bw..OJ
Terry Pinnell said:
Thanks for the follow-ups. As mentioned, I definitely do NOT want to
replace the h/s. From research here and elsewhere I gather that a h/s
is often very hard to remove, and its replacement hard to get into
place. And that's presumably with generous space on either side which
I don't have in my PC.

I'm currently looking at this one:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=1806&doy=27m11D
But I'll have to wait until I can 'phone tomorrow,
as the spec doesn't confirm it's a 3-pin, nor show depth (or a decent
image enlargement so I can take a guess).
 
J

Johannes

GSV said:
Bitstring <[email protected]>, from the wonderful person


Yep, or even bigger. However if the low profile fan was there for a
reason (small and obstructed case) than an 80mm fan with a funnel isn't
going to fit.


Unless the mobo is installed in some wretched mini-tower case, without a
removable mobo tray, in which case swapping the HSF requires incredible
dexterity and luck, or complete removal of the mobo from the case.

Hehe. According to a document by Intel, the TIM (Thermal Interface Material)
has to be replaced at regular maintenance times:

"System integrators might wish to replace the TIM during regularly scheduled
maintenance periods in order maintain End-of-Line performance of the thermal
solution."

I wonder how many 'System integrators' actually do this?
 
K

kony

Alternative to this is to take the fan off and remove the sticker. A
drop of light machine oil can do wonders to stop bearing noise for awhile
until you get a replacement. It does work, but only for about a month, I've
found.

It is likely to work for longer if you used a higher
viscosity oil, almost grease. Light machine oil should not
be used for any fan except in emergency when there is
nothing else around.
 
K

kony

I'm not into home-building but hope someone here can advise me on this
please. My MESH Athlon 1800 PC has a CPU fan and it badly needs
replacing. It's a common 3-pin 12V, 60mm type. Its depth (which BTW I
never see specified) is about 12mm. That's considerably thinner than
60mm case fans, and the screw holes are much smaller diameter too.

IMO, you are better off getting a thicker fan and
replacement screws if necessary. It will also tend to be
far quieter, providing the replacement fan is lower RPM (and
it does not need be as high an RPM when it's thicker). Main
issue is whether there is clearance, ideally there should be
a bare minimum of 20mm above the fan before solid-paneled
obstructions like a power supply (I dont' know what your
case is like, some of the mATX rotate the PSU and mount it
alongside the motherboard).

The thin fan is likely the reason why it is now failing, as
they have poorer balance, poorer bearing system, and have to
spin at a higher RPM to move same air (enough to cool CPU
adequately). A 60 x 10-12mm fan is about the worst possible
solution for any CPU less than ~ 7 years old.

Also, if you end up getting a fan that is less than 15-20mm
thick in 60mm size, get a decent brand with ball-bearing.
Sleeve bearing on a hot heatsink with higher RPM is another
reason for an early failure.

After an hour or so of googling I've so far still not found a
replacement UK source. Can anyone help please?

Neither my nerves nor skill are up to replacing the *heat sink*. I
want to replace only the fan.

Sorry I can't help much sourcing a fan in the UK, but if you
found the thicker fans already that is what I'd choose.
 
D

DaveW

The fans and heatsinks on CPU cooling units are integral parts. You
generally will find that you can NOT replace just one or the other.
 
R

Rob Morley

The fans and heatsinks on CPU cooling units are integral parts. You
generally will find that you can NOT replace just one or the other.
No I won't - I've never had a problem replacing CPU fans and I don't
expect to in the near future. I've even managed to buy them cheaply in
the right size, but if there's room it's generally better to use
adaptors with larger fans (which are quieter and more readily available
at a sensible price).
 
K

kony

The fans and heatsinks on CPU cooling units are integral parts. You
generally will find that you can NOT replace just one or the other.


Quite wrong, it is rare to find a 'sink that needs a special
proprietary fan. However a few of the more popular ones do,
like the Intel retail, or some of those Zalman flower types.
These are clearly visible exceptions though, if the fan
looks fairly standard, odds are quite high that it is.
 
T

Terry Pinnell

old jon said:
Write up says it`s a 2 wire Terry.
bw..OJ

You're right, thanks OJ, missed that.

And on 'phoning a while ago, Maplin said it's "not for a computer".
Nor do they stock a suitable 60 mm fan any more. So, still looking...
 
T

Terry Pinnell

kony said:
Quite wrong, it is rare to find a 'sink that needs a special
proprietary fan. However a few of the more popular ones do,
like the Intel retail, or some of those Zalman flower types.
These are clearly visible exceptions though, if the fan
looks fairly standard, odds are quite high that it is.

Thanks for the follow-ups. I'm still looking, but will favour a
thicker fan as you recommend. Presumably the fan would always come
with its own nuts or screws? The existing ones are nuts, which screw
into holes on outer edge of h/s. I've seen other integrated units
which appear to use self-tapping screws, and sometimes I understand
these 'screw' merely into the space between vanes?

Re the 'adapters' that I see mentioned, are they to adapt 60 mm to 80
mm for example?

Wouldn't a heavier fan (either through larger diameter and/or greater
thickness) impose extra vibration stress on the CPU?
 
K

kony

Thanks for the follow-ups. I'm still looking, but will favour a
thicker fan as you recommend. Presumably the fan would always come
with its own nuts or screws?

No.

Typical fans marketed and advertised towards "PC" use are as
often really low quality junk, stuff the seller makes a
maximum profit off of as it allowed most markup possible.

Decent brands of fans do not generally come in any kind of
kit form with screws or anything else. At most you would
seek a fan that thas the correct connector for the
motherboard. Look at the current screws to determine their
size, as you might be able to reuse those (on many fans,
there are tabs rather than a deep channel hole such that the
screw does not extend all the way to the top edge of the
fan, only to the bottom flange so the same screw used
previously "might" work (I cannot see it so I cannot be sure
of this). If the original screws can't be reused, note
their diameter and pitch and possibly you have a few spare
screws around the house or get a dollar pack at the local
hardware store.

The existing ones are nuts, which screw
into holes on outer edge of h/s. I've seen other integrated units
which appear to use self-tapping screws, and sometimes I understand
these 'screw' merely into the space between vanes?

I don't understand what you mean by "nuts". Well, I know
what a nut is but I'm not visualizing it on a heatsink.

If you mean that the heatsink has holes drilled into it, and
in these holes there's a tapped sleeve that another machine
screw threads into, you might do as I suggested above, see
if the original screws work and if not, grab compatible
screws at the local hardware store.

So do essentially tap into (or just crudely cut a few
grooves into the sides of) the vanes. It is possible to
mount a different shaped or sized 'sink like that but i was
anticipating that if you're choosing the same diameter fan
as the original, the holes should still match up to the
current mounting points so you would be able to use exact
same mounting method with the only potential issue being the
length of the screws?

Re the 'adapters' that I see mentioned, are they to adapt 60 mm to 80
mm for example?

Those are often more trouble than they're worth, as putting
the fan further away from the 'sink means it has to maintain
pressure on a larger volume of air which reduces the flow
rate almost to the point of no benefit over a smaller (but
still thick) fan.

Ideally (if the height isn't an issue) you should choose a
fan that's 60mm x 25mm, and fairly low RPM, perhaps around
2300. For example,
http://www.dansdata.com/images/coolercomp/ys7200400.jpg

Above example is only of the size proportions and mounting
flanges, the particular fan model shown is a very high RPM,
far too loud, while you'd be looking for one closer to 2300
RPM or about .12A, perhaps slightly faster if your 'sink is
very poor, you had poor case ventilation or a very warm
ambient (room) temp at any time during the year.

So with a fan like that the screws only go through the
bottom flange into whatever the 'sink provides as the
mounting point, as in the following picture it's a plastic
frame on the tines but otherwise it might just be directly
screwed into the metal or another structure,
http://www.dansdata.com/images/coolercomp/teyst400.jpg

If the necessary mounting method is still not clear you
might seek a good online picture of your 'sink (including
the mounting area in view) and link to it.

Wouldn't a heavier fan (either through larger diameter and/or greater
thickness) impose extra vibration stress on the CPU?

There will be a little more leverage against the CPU but the
'sink mounting clamp is plenty strong enough (assuming it
isn't defective). Vibration is typically due to imbalance,
if any fan is vibrating very much it is a sign that it's
either worn onto the point that it needs replaced, or very
poor quality/defective and shouldn't be used as new.

With the thicker fan, you move more air per RPM and can
lower the RPM (choose fan with lower default RPM if you're
not inclined to find a manual or fan-controller method of
further control over the speed) so that with this lower RPM,
there is less vibration, and much slower fan wear so even
given a similar low-quality fan to the one you've had
failing, it would take longer to wear out the bearing (all
other things being equal).

Always use at least 25mm thick fan on a CPU heatsink
whenever possible, with either a renowned sleeve-bearing
(like on a Panaflo, Papst, or rarer on other makes of fans)
or a dual-ball-bearing system. A fan that simple says "ball
bearing" is often not sufficient as many low quality fans
try to market this when they actually use one ball and one
sleeve bearing which can be worse.

It is not common to have a CPU fan failure when a good fan
size, RPM and quality is used at the start. Unfortunately
you have been a victim of a poor engineering or
bean-counter's decision to chose the wrong fan for that
'sink and so now you've need to fix their mistake.
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Jeff Gaines said:
Have you tried Dorothy Bradbury's site?
http://www.dorothybradbury.co.uk/

Yes, thanks, discovered them earlier. Emailed them a few hours ago
about the fan NMB-MAT RB 2410-ML-L £7.79. Unless I missed it, couldn't
see enough detail in their spec to be sure. For example, whether it
*is* a CPU fan, with standard 3-pin m/b connector.

Local computer shop doesn't have one, nor Maplin. Surprised me that
they aren't more commonplace.
 
T

Terry Pinnell

kony said:

Many thanks for that very helpful reply. Kind of you to take the
trouble.

See a few more comments inline.
Typical fans marketed and advertised towards "PC" use are as
often really low quality junk, stuff the seller makes a
maximum profit off of as it allowed most markup possible.

Decent brands of fans do not generally come in any kind of
kit form with screws or anything else. At most you would
seek a fan that thas the correct connector for the
motherboard. Look at the current screws to determine their
size, as you might be able to reuse those (on many fans,
there are tabs rather than a deep channel hole such that the
screw does not extend all the way to the top edge of the
fan, only to the bottom flange so the same screw used
previously "might" work (I cannot see it so I cannot be sure
of this). If the original screws can't be reused, note
their diameter and pitch and possibly you have a few spare
screws around the house or get a dollar pack at the local
hardware store.



I don't understand what you mean by "nuts". Well, I know
what a nut is but I'm not visualizing it on a heatsink.

I'm not surprised you don't follow me - I got my nuts & bolts
reversed! I meant a bolt, but your term below, 'machine screw', is
more apt.
If you mean that the heatsink has holes drilled into it, and
in these holes there's a tapped sleeve that another machine
screw threads into, you might do as I suggested above, see
if the original screws work and if not, grab compatible
screws at the local hardware store.

Exactly so. The originals are about 15 mm long and so should be fine
for either a similarly thin 12mm type, mounted exactly as now, or a
more desirable 20-25mm type mounted through the 'lower' holes, close
to the h/s.
So do essentially tap into (or just crudely cut a few
grooves into the sides of) the vanes. It is possible to
mount a different shaped or sized 'sink like that but i was
anticipating that if you're choosing the same diameter fan
as the original, the holes should still match up to the
current mounting points so you would be able to use exact
same mounting method with the only potential issue being the
length of the screws?

Yep, understood.
Those are often more trouble than they're worth, as putting
the fan further away from the 'sink means it has to maintain
pressure on a larger volume of air which reduces the flow
rate almost to the point of no benefit over a smaller (but
still thick) fan.

OK, I'll forget about those and 80mm fans then.
Ideally (if the height isn't an issue) you should choose a
fan that's 60mm x 25mm, and fairly low RPM, perhaps around
2300. For example,
http://www.dansdata.com/images/coolercomp/ys7200400.jpg

Above example is only of the size proportions and mounting
flanges, the particular fan model shown is a very high RPM,
far too loud, while you'd be looking for one closer to 2300
RPM or about .12A, perhaps slightly faster if your 'sink is
very poor, you had poor case ventilation or a very warm
ambient (room) temp at any time during the year.

So with a fan like that the screws only go through the
bottom flange into whatever the 'sink provides as the
mounting point, as in the following picture it's a plastic
frame on the tines but otherwise it might just be directly
screwed into the metal or another structure,
http://www.dansdata.com/images/coolercomp/teyst400.jpg

If the necessary mounting method is still not clear you
might seek a good online picture of your 'sink (including
the mounting area in view) and link to it.

That's all very clear, thanks.

---------

Right now you'd never know it had failed. After that re-oiling with
3-in-One, and a bit of Sellotape to seal it (the original label was
losing its adhesiveness), it now seems to be running OK.

After recommendations in alt.comp.hardware, I've now installed MBM 5.
It report my CPU a steady 50°C. That sounds a bit warm, but I assume
it's OK? (CPU = AMD Athlon XP1800+ on ASUS A7A266-E m/b) The case is
at 31°C. And the fan is typically at about 4750 rpm. I'd prefer it to
be quieter, and if I eventually succeed in *finding* a 25mm x 60mm
replacement, I'm hoping it will be. Mind you, it's possible that
having recently added another 2 HDs (making 3), there's a minimum
sound level I'll have to accept.
There will be a little more leverage against the CPU but the
'sink mounting clamp is plenty strong enough (assuming it
isn't defective). Vibration is typically due to imbalance,
if any fan is vibrating very much it is a sign that it's
either worn onto the point that it needs replaced, or very
poor quality/defective and shouldn't be used as new.

With the thicker fan, you move more air per RPM and can
lower the RPM (choose fan with lower default RPM if you're
not inclined to find a manual or fan-controller method of
further control over the speed) so that with this lower RPM,
there is less vibration, and much slower fan wear so even
given a similar low-quality fan to the one you've had
failing, it would take longer to wear out the bearing (all
other things being equal).

Always use at least 25mm thick fan on a CPU heatsink
whenever possible, with either a renowned sleeve-bearing
(like on a Panaflo, Papst, or rarer on other makes of fans)
or a dual-ball-bearing system. A fan that simple says "ball
bearing" is often not sufficient as many low quality fans
try to market this when they actually use one ball and one
sleeve bearing which can be worse.

I'm pretty sure the other label on this says 'Ball bearing'.
It is not common to have a CPU fan failure when a good fan
size, RPM and quality is used at the start. Unfortunately
you have been a victim of a poor engineering or
bean-counter's decision to chose the wrong fan for that
'sink and so now you've need to fix their mistake.

BTW, the other reason for removing that sealing label was that it says
"5 Years Warranty; JUST COOLER; CE"; the PC is 3½ years old, so I may
try tracking down the supplier and exercising that warranty!
 

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