What's wrong with this computer??

P

Patty

The phone line has 'whole house' protectors installed by the
telco for free. That would be the path from telephone line to
earth ground.

Hmmmm. Not MY phone line or phone company. I've had too many phone
hookups blown out on surge protectors to ever believe that MY phone company
has installed any kind of protection. These days, since I only use my
modem for sending/receiving faxes, I just keep the phone line unplugged
from my modem when not being used. Luckily, I've never lost a modem so the
surge protectors must have given some protection.

Patty
 
W

w_tom

Assumed was that phone line appliances are damaged by a
wave, entering on phone line, then crashing onto that
appliance like it was a beach. Oceans waves and electrical
transients are completely different. First an electrical
transient current flow through everything in a complete path
from cloud to ground. Then item or items in that path are
damaged. Essential incoming and outgoing paths are required
to have damage.

As demonstrated in the previous post, what is a most common
source of damage to phone line appliances? AC electric.
Why? Phone line provides the good outgoing path to earth.
Highest wires on utility pole provide a best incoming path. A
complete circuit - incoming and outgoing paths - exist for
damage to occur. Myths instead claim a modem is damaged when
only an incoming path - phone line - exists.

Meanwhile, a protector damaged by a transient provides
ineffective protection. Even modems have internal
protection. Sometimes a transient too small to overwhelm
protection inside a modem with damage the grossly undersized
and adjacent protector. Undersized so that you will *assume*
the protector provided protection.

Of course, even an effective 'whole house' phone line
protector provided by the telco will only be as effective as
the earth ground YOU have provided. A protector is only as
effective as its earth ground, which plug-in protectors hope
you never learn. Profits on grossly undersized plug-in
protectors are too large to be honest; to discuss the most
critical component in any protections system. Earth ground.
No dedicated connection to earth ground on that protector
meant no effective protection.

Also demonstrated in a figure from the National Institute of
Standards and Technology is how improperly earthing can
destroy telephone appliances. In this case, a fax machine is
damaged when telco and AC electric earthing is not properly
installed:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

But again, what do industry professional always discuss?
Earthing. Earthing is the most essential part of a protection
'system'. Something that ineffective plug-in protectors
routinely avoid discussing.
 
D

David Maynard

w_tom said:
Assumed was that phone line appliances are damaged by a
wave, entering on phone line, then crashing onto that
appliance like it was a beach. Oceans waves and electrical
transients are completely different. First an electrical
transient current flow through everything in a complete path
from cloud to ground. Then item or items in that path are
damaged. Essential incoming and outgoing paths are required
to have damage.

As demonstrated in the previous post, what is a most common
source of damage to phone line appliances? AC electric.
Why? Phone line provides the good outgoing path to earth.
Highest wires on utility pole provide a best incoming path. A
complete circuit - incoming and outgoing paths - exist for
damage to occur. Myths instead claim a modem is damaged when
only an incoming path - phone line - exists.

Meanwhile, a protector damaged by a transient provides
ineffective protection. Even modems have internal
protection. Sometimes a transient too small to overwhelm
protection inside a modem with damage the grossly undersized
and adjacent protector. Undersized so that you will *assume*
the protector provided protection.

Complete and utter nonsense.
Of course, even an effective 'whole house' phone line
protector provided by the telco will only be as effective as
the earth ground YOU have provided.

More nonsense. "You" don't "provide" squat for the telco protector.
A protector is only as
effective as its earth ground, which plug-in protectors hope
you never learn.

Still waiting for you to explain how aircraft get that '10 foot' earth cable.
Profits on grossly undersized plug-in
protectors are too large to be honest; to discuss the most
critical component in any protections system. Earth ground.
No dedicated connection to earth ground on that protector
meant no effective protection.

More nonsense.
Also demonstrated in a figure from the National Institute of
Standards and Technology is how improperly earthing can
destroy telephone appliances. In this case, a fax machine is
damaged when telco and AC electric earthing is not properly
installed:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Good example of why a whole house protector is often insufficient.

But again, what do industry professional always discuss?
Earthing. Earthing is the most essential part of a protection
'system'. Something that ineffective plug-in protectors
routinely avoid discussing.

No, they don't and you know it.
 
W

w_tom

Lurkers are warned how to identify those who don't know; who
promote myths. Look at previous David Maynard posts. For
example, he claims surges are created by household
appliances. This was a myth promoted by plug-in manufacturers
when desperately seeking something to protect from. For if
appliances create such destructive transients, then appliances
are destroying themselves. For if appliances create such
destructive transients, then you are trooping weekly to the
hardware store to replace destroyed smoke detectors, bathroom
and kitchen GFCIs, your clock radio, dimmer switches, furnace
controls, etc. For if appliances create such destructive
transients, then you are replacing every plug-in protector
weekly or monthly. Their MOVs are not sized nor intended for
numerous and daily transients.

These are facts and numbers David routinely forgets because
he was caught and exposed in previous discussions with
insufficient technical knowledge. For him, posting such myths
are a form of revenge.

Notice again, he never says why. His responses are simply
"Complete and utter nonsense", "More nonsense", and some
totally irrelevant baloney about lightning to aircraft.
Obviously we are discussing Cloud to Ground lightning
transients, making airborne aircraft totally irrelevant. He
posts absurd claims without providing underlying facts or
numbers. It is an old Radio Moscow propaganda technique. The
reader will notice which posts provide numbers, professional
citations, and other information that David Maynard cannot and
does not challenge.

Which should you believe? Single phrase replies (without any
numbers) from David Maynard, or well proven concepts of
protection even defined by the National Institute for
Standards and Technology (same people who also do the national
time standard).

Lurkers are warned about those who use propaganda rather
than use science, professional citations, the numbers, and
even what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752. These are well
proven facts from GE and Westinghouse science papers in the
1930s, and demonstrated in telephone exchanges that routinely
suffer direct lightning strikes without damage today. A
protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth
ground (such as with plug-in protectors) means no effective
protection. So myth purveyors invent household appliance
surges. Surges that daily destroy which unprotected
electronics?
 
D

David Maynard

w_tom said:
Lurkers are warned how to identify those who don't know; who
promote myths.

You're one of the biggest hucksters I've seen in a long time.
Look at previous David Maynard posts.

Yes, please do. The one where I explained how whole house and local
protectors work, and the benefits/limitations of each, will help dispel the
nonsense, and slander, w_tom routinely posts.
For
example, he claims surges are created by household
appliances.

So you now claim a swimming pool pump motor is a "household appliance."
This was a myth promoted by plug-in manufacturers
when desperately seeking something to protect from.

Another of your inventions.
For if
appliances create such destructive transients, then appliances
are destroying themselves.

I guess you never heard of equipment failure or a fault condition.
For if appliances create such
destructive transients, then you are trooping weekly to the
hardware store to replace destroyed smoke detectors, bathroom
and kitchen GFCIs, your clock radio, dimmer switches, furnace
controls, etc. For if appliances create such destructive
transients, then you are replacing every plug-in protector
weekly or monthly. Their MOVs are not sized nor intended for
numerous and daily transients.

Babble derived from nonsense.
These are facts and numbers David routinely forgets because
he was caught and exposed in previous discussions with
insufficient technical knowledge. For him, posting such myths
are a form of revenge.

Notice how w_tom simply posts ad hominems and not a single fact nor does he
ever deal with what's posted but, instead, mischaracterizes and distorts.

Notice again, he never says why.

A plain lie.
His responses are simply
"Complete and utter nonsense", "More nonsense",

I say nonsense when you post nonsense.
and some
totally irrelevant baloney about lightning to aircraft.
Obviously we are discussing Cloud to Ground lightning
transients, making airborne aircraft totally irrelevant.

Which just shows you have no idea how electronics, or surge protection,
works. The electronic device doesn't know, or care, where the surge 'came
from' or where it's 'going', be it a cloud or 'ground'. All that matters is
the potential it sees.

He
posts absurd claims without providing underlying facts or
numbers. It is an old Radio Moscow propaganda technique. The
reader will notice which posts provide numbers, professional
citations, and other information that David Maynard cannot and
does not challenge.

So, Radio Moscow is where you learned it.
Which should you believe? Single phrase replies (without any
numbers) from David Maynard, or well proven concepts of
protection even defined by the National Institute for
Standards and Technology (same people who also do the national
time standard).

Pompous declaration of no substance.
Lurkers are warned about those who use propaganda rather
than use science, professional citations, the numbers, and
even what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752.

And if you're trying to keep your house from catching fire due to lightning
you might want to use a lightning rod. Unfortunately, a computer isn't a house.
These are well
proven facts from GE and Westinghouse science papers in the
1930s, and demonstrated in telephone exchanges that routinely
suffer direct lightning strikes without damage today.

So if you have a 1930's electromechanical relay telephone exchange in your
home read up on it. On the other hand, if you're using a computer...

A
protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth
ground (such as with plug-in protectors) means no effective
protection.

Wrong. And since you've made claims of knowing 'facts' then you explain how
electronics can be damaged if there is no damaging potential across it,
regardless of where 'earth' is.
So myth purveyors invent household appliance
surges. Surges that daily destroy which unprotected
electronics?

No, YOU invented it, as you do the rest.
 
R

rantonrave

w_tom said:
For example, he claims surges are created by household
appliances. This was a myth promoted by plug-in manufacturers
when desperately seeking something to protect from. For if
appliances create such destructive transients, then appliances
are destroying themselves. For if appliances create such
destructive transients, then you are trooping weekly to the
hardware store to replace destroyed smoke detectors, bathroom
and kitchen GFCIs, your clock radio, dimmer switches, furnace
controls, etc.

My 1970s PC with a linear power supply made with a 723 regulator was
damaged by a power line transient from the Teletype KSR33 connected to
it, and the transient did come through the power cable because the data
lines were optically isolated. Before the destructiion happened, the
computer would regularly crash whenever the Teletype's motor turned
off. The solution was a plug-in L-C surge protector.

I'm sure appliances can be made to destroy themselves from their own
transients because poorly designed digital boards were known to do that
from a lack of adequate bypass capacitance to keep their chips from
generating overvoltage spikes every time their gates switched.
 
W

w_tom

There is no L-C surge protector. L-C 'filters' have been
standard on power supplies even in the 1970s. An L-C filter
that would be standard in electronic power supplies back then
is even all but required by the FCC today. Just another in a
long list of reasons why 'household appliances causing
electronics damage' is a myth - promoted by those who also
promote those grossly overpriced and undersized, ineffective,
plug-in surge protectors. They must invent a disease when
none exists.

If a power supply was damaged by the KSR33 Teletype (which
were popular in the 1960s), then a power supply was defective
when it was designed. Any electronics inside the building
destroyed by other household appliances does not need a surge
protector. It must contain sufficient internal protection as
even required by industry standards. The solution starts by
replacing a bean counter type human with a product oriented
human. IOW the problem is really a human who somehow knows -
facts and reality be damned.

If damage occurs from a household appliance, then a computer
grade UPS in battery backup mode would also damage that
electronics. What can a computer grade UPS output as a 120
VAC 'modified sine wave'? Two 200 volt square waves with a
270 volt spike between those square waves. If that pathetic
power supply was damaged by the KSR33, then that power supply
would also be destroyed by this computer grade UPS. Just
another in a long list of reasons why 'household appliances
causing electronics damage' is a myth. The power supply
damaged by a KSR33 was defective when purchased. Shame on
that human who was the reason for failure.
 
D

David Maynard

w_tom said:
There is no L-C surge protector. L-C 'filters' have been
standard on power supplies even in the 1970s. An L-C filter
that would be standard in electronic power supplies back then
is even all but required by the FCC today.

Wrong. The typical home back then wasn't filled with SMPS, computers, video
games, wireless remotes, cordless phones, cell phones, TVs and radios every
5 feet, and wireless network devices so what constituted a reasonable
filter then was not the same as today's requirements.
Just another in a
long list of reasons why 'household appliances causing
electronics damage' is a myth - promoted by those who also
promote those grossly overpriced and undersized, ineffective,
plug-in surge protectors. They must invent a disease when
none exists.

w_tom is apparently unaware of appliances with inductive devices, like
motors and relays, and never heard of equipment faults or any other surge
producing mechanism.

If a power supply was damaged by the KSR33 Teletype (which
were popular in the 1960s), then a power supply was defective
when it was designed. Any electronics inside the building
destroyed by other household appliances does not need a surge
protector. It must contain sufficient internal protection as
even required by industry standards. The solution starts by
replacing a bean counter type human with a product oriented
human. IOW the problem is really a human who somehow knows -
facts and reality be damned.
Nonsense

If damage occurs from a household appliance, then a computer
grade UPS in battery backup mode would also damage that
electronics.

More nonsense.
What can a computer grade UPS output as a 120
VAC 'modified sine wave'? Two 200 volt square waves with a
270 volt spike between those square waves. If that pathetic
power supply was damaged by the KSR33, then that power supply
would also be destroyed by this computer grade UPS.

Actually, unrelated to both the KSR33 and the voltage nonsense (no surprise
there), a UPS of that type, although not as bad as a straight square wave,
*can* damage equipment, depending on what kind of power supply it has.
SMPS, the type they expect to be connected to it, are usually OK because
the first thing an SMPS does is rectify the incoming AC to DC so the non
sinusoidal waveform is not so significant, although it can stress the DC
filter capacitors and cause premature failure.

Traditional linear power supplies, like with a 60Hz transformer (common
wall wart being an example), can overheat from core saturation or simply
not operate properly because the design depends on a 60Hz (maybe 50Hz for
'international' compatibility) sinusoidal waveform. Devices employing
Triacs or SCRs, like many laser printers, can fail due to square wave
induced current surges. Other things, like fans, fluorescent lights, and
amplifiers, might 'buzz'.

And a 120V modified sine wave would be about 145V-165V peak (120VAC
sinusoidal is 170V [rounded] peak).
Just
another in a long list of reasons why 'household appliances
causing electronics damage' is a myth.

No, it's another reason why you should read up on transformers, motors, and
inductive devices in general.
 

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