What's with my video card!!

[mm]

I'd appreciate some help on video cards.

I currently have an ATI Technologies 3D Rage II+ PCI video card with 4
Meg memory, and I think I need to upgrade it but I'd like to
understand my computer and I'd like to understand why.

I've installed Google Earth under WinXP SP3, and I ran DXDiag.exe and
under the display page, it says that Direct3D Acceleration is not
available. Yet "3D" appears in the name of the card. Isn't that what
Google Earth wants? What am I missing?


My driver is dated 8/17/2001, and I know there is a newer one but a
lot of hunting about 6 months ago led me to download sites that listed
the newer one, but then they either couldn't find their own link or
they pointed me back to the ATI website, which doesn't have it.

That's still happening. Even one that said it had done 25 downloads
in the last week. I have driver version: 5.01.2493.0000 and the
independent driver pages make reference to version: 5.01.2535.0000. Is
ATI just missing this particular driver, because it's "legacy"?

Why do you think none of the independent sites don't have it? This is
just curiosity. I obviously cant' do anything about it.


I needed the new driver because the computer won't go into Standby
mode with the current driver, and the message says to upgreade the
driver. But now I also seem to need something to use Google Earth in
DirectX mode. The message said "graphics card or IGP" I'm guessing,
does IGP mean Integrated Graphics Processor, on the motherboard? If
so, I don't have that.

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* mm:

I currently have an ATI Technologies 3D Rage II+ PCI video card with 4
Meg memory, and I think I need to upgrade it but I'd like to
understand my computer and I'd like to understand why.

I've installed Google Earth under WinXP SP3, and I ran DXDiag.exe and
under the display page, it says that Direct3D Acceleration is not
available. Yet "3D" appears in the name of the card. Isn't that what
Google Earth wants? What am I missing?

You are missing that your 12(!) years old graphics card is just
rudimentarily supported in Windowsxp. Yes, the 3D Rage II+ supports 3D
acceleration but it was made when Windows95 and WindowsNT were current.
It does support OpenGL 1.x, and it does support DirectX 3 and 5, both
which are really ancient by today's standards. The ATI Rage Pro/Rage II
series was already crap when they were new. There really is no reason to
waste any time with such a card.

Not only requires Google Earth somewhat more modern APIs (IIRC it
requires DirectX 9 or OpenGL 2.x), even if it would run on your old Rage
II+ it would perform like crap (more like a very slow slide show with
low details).

Save yourself the hazzle, take say five bucks and buy a better PCI
graphics card on ebay (i.e. ATI Radeon 7000 and newer or Nvidia Geforce
2 MX or newer) which are way faster, have better drivers available, and
run Google Earth at least somewhat decent.

However, I wonder when your card is already 12 years old how about the
rest of your computer. If it is similarly antique I would refrain from
the thought to be able to run modern applications like Google Earth on it.

Benjamin

 

[mm]

* mm:


You are missing that your 12(!) years old graphics card is just
rudimentarily supported in Windowsxp.

Thanks for answering. I guess you're right about that. I didnt'
realize how bad it was.

Yes, the 3D Rage II+ supports 3D
acceleration but it was made when Windows95 and WindowsNT were current.
It does support OpenGL 1.x, and it does support DirectX 3 and 5, both
which are really ancient by today's standards. The ATI Rage Pro/Rage II
series was already crap when they were new. There really is no reason to
waste any time with such a card.

I got it free? Maybe that's why my friend gave it to me.

Not only requires Google Earth somewhat more modern APIs (IIRC it
requires DirectX 9 or OpenGL 2.x), even if it would run on your old Rage
II+ it would perform like crap (more like a very slow slide show with
low details).

Save yourself the hazzle, take say five bucks and buy a better PCI
graphics card on ebay (i.e. ATI Radeon 7000 and newer or Nvidia Geforce
2 MX or newer) which are way faster, have better drivers available, and
run Google Earth at least somewhat decent.

Okay. That sounds like what I should do.

So if I'm going to buy another graphics card, I'd like to get one that
has output for the TV**. I usually use an antenna and a Philips DVDR
with a digital tuner that supplies an analog signal to 3 analog tvs.
The DVDR has RCA input jacks, and one S-Video input jack.

It has: AV In, Red, Yellow, and White RCA jacks. (Component, right?)
and Composite-video In, also 3 RCA jacks, but just for video iiuc
and S-Video In
and RF/Antenna in, for the record, but that doesn't count.

I guess the only sound-In is the yellow and white AV audio RCA jacks.

How would I connect the computer to the DVDR to get both picture and
sound? Do I have to run all 3 video and left and right audio cables,
or is there a simpler way?

The DVDR is about 30 feet away. If I run the wire up to the attic and
over to the closet and down and back to the DVR, it's maybe 70 feet
total.

**(so I could watch online-tv like Hulu on my tv instead just the
computer monitor while sitting in a desk chair.)


Also, is there any issue about a new model graphics card working on XP
but not on Win98SE? I still have that on the same harddrive, and
when I once had big trouble with XP, 98 has been very useful, if
nothing else to get my email and read my newsgroups.

Any graphics card recommendations considering all these things? Even
20 or 30 dollars is okay. The ATI Radeon 7000 says it has VGA
(d-sub), DVI-I and TV out. And I can't see too well but it may have
an S-video jack?? And it says it runs on win98SE? Is it still what I
want?

However, I wonder when your card is already 12 years old how about the
rest of your computer. If it is similarly antique I would refrain from
the thought to be able to run modern applications like Google Earth on it.

I'll have to upgrade more of it if necessary. It is 800 MHz now, but
my friend says he has a faster motherboard/cpu that he's going to give
me, when he upgrades his stuff. And that may include a bigger power
supply.

Benjamin

Thanks a lot,
Mike

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* mm:

I got it free?

It is only free if your time is worth nothing.

Maybe that's why my friend gave it to me.
Probably.

So if I'm going to buy another graphics card, I'd like to get one that
has output for the TV**.

Most older graphics card had a TV output (Y/C aka SVHS, can be converted
to CVBS by a cheap adapter), so that shouldn't be a problem.

Also, is there any issue about a new model graphics card working on XP
but not on Win98SE? I still have that on the same harddrive, and
when I once had big trouble with XP, 98 has been very useful, if
nothing else to get my email and read my newsgroups.

Yes, cards like the Radeon 7000 had Win98 drivers available. However, it
is really not a good idea to use the internet with Windows98 any more as
there haven't been any security updates to Windows or the browsers which
run on it for years, and despite common belief there still are many
threats around that do affect Windows98.

Any graphics card recommendations considering all these things? Even
20 or 30 dollars is okay. The ATI Radeon 7000 says it has VGA
(d-sub), DVI-I and TV out. And I can't see too well but it may have
an S-video jack?? And it says it runs on win98SE? Is it still what I
want?
Yes.

I'll have to upgrade more of it if necessary. It is 800 MHz now, but
my friend says he has a faster motherboard/cpu that he's going to give
me, when he upgrades his stuff. And that may include a bigger power
supply.

To be honest, with 800MHz watching Hulu (which is Flash-based and thus
requires quite a bit more CPU performance) won't work, no matter what
graphics card you throw in. You should at least get something in the
area of a Pentium4 2.6GHz or AthlonXP 2000 or better. I wouldn't waste
any time with anything slower as it never will do what you want it to do
(Google Earth and Hulu).

Honestly, if I were you I'd just fetch something like a Dell Precision
(360/370/380) or HP dc-Series (dc7100/7200) computer which can be had
for around $60-$90 today and has enough performance for what you want it
to do.

Ben

 

[mm]

.....

It has: AV In, Red, Yellow, and White RCA jacks. (Component, right?)
and Composite-video In, also 3 RCA jacks, but just for video iiuc
and S-Video In

I think I got this wrong. The yellow video jack is composite, iiuc.
The three jacks for YPbPg is component, iiuc.

I guess the only sound-In is the yellow and white AV audio RCA jacks.

Sorry. I meant red and white.

How would I connect the computer to the DVDR to get both picture and
sound? Do I have to run all 3 video and left and right audio cables,
or is there a simpler way?

After reading a lot tonight, I gather if I can't use HDMI, there is no
simpler way. I need 3 cables.

I've read there are better ways than S-video, but since the largest TV
I have or expect to get is 19 inches and a couple are 15 inch, do you
think S-video is good enough? It seems like, if I get a video card
with S-video out, it would be pretty simple compared to all the
adapters etc. I'd need to use anything better.

http://www.cablesnmor.com/qo-s-video-cables.aspx had 100 foot S-video
for 24.50 although they won't tell me what the shipping charge is
unless I give them my name etc.

And I can get the sound from the sound card, like everyone does.

Thaks again.

 

[Barry Watzman]

Re: "I currently have an ATI Technologies 3D Rage II+ PCI video card
with 4 Meg memory, and I think I need to upgrade it"

A gross understatement; that card is more than a decade old, it's truly
a fossil.

The card is not compliant with any modern standards. It's from the era
of 486 and very early Pentium [Pentium ONE] PCs.

You desperately need a new video card. What I'm wondering is if what
you really need is a new computer.

 

[Barry Watzman]

The real question here that you have not addressed is the COMPUTER.

You may be dealing with a computer that is old that, as a practical
matter, you can't get a modern video card.

You also need to concern yourself with what video card motherboard
options you have. You should use PCI only as a last resort. If you
have AGP you should use that, if you have PCI Express (I'm 99% sure you
don't) you should use that:

PCI (oldest and worst)
AGP
PCI Express (newest and best)

BTW, if you are interested, I have a brand new, still shrink wrapped ATI
Radeon 7000 "Dual Display Edition" video card for $15 + shipping. It's
not a truly modern card but it's cheap and new and very reasonable for
almost all non-gaming applications. It has VGA Output, DVI output
(which can be converted to HDMI with an adapter, OR to a SECOND,
INDEPENDENT VGA output) and TV output (both composite and S-Video).
It's a decent card for an older AGP machine.

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* Barry Watzman:

Re: "I currently have an ATI Technologies 3D Rage II+ PCI video card
with 4 Meg memory, and I think I need to upgrade it"

A gross understatement; that card is more than a decade old, it's truly
a fossil.

The card is not compliant with any modern standards. It's from the era
of 486 and very early Pentium [Pentium ONE] PCs.

Not really. While the Rage II series is old, it is really not *that*
old. The Rage II is from end of 1996, and at that time 486 haven't been
sold new any more for several years (and the very early Pentium PCs you
mentioned came out 3 years before the Rage II was announced). PCs of
these days were computers with Pentium 166-200MHz (the upper range of
the Pentium series) and Pentium Pro.

And it does support Direct3D and OpenGL (in older versions, though),
which if I remember right are both "modern standards".

You desperately need a new video card. What I'm wondering is if what
you really need is a new computer.

That is probably right, though.

Benjamin

 

[mm]

The real question here that you have not addressed is the COMPUTER.

You may be dealing with a computer that is old that, as a practical
matter, you can't get a modern video card.

You also need to concern yourself with what video card motherboard
options you have. You should use PCI only as a last resort. If you
have AGP you should use that, if you have PCI Express (I'm 99% sure you
don't) you should use that:

It has AGP. YOu're right it doesn't have pci-express.

PCI (oldest and worst)
AGP
PCI Express (newest and best)

BTW, if you are interested, I have a brand new, still shrink wrapped ATI
Radeon 7000 "Dual Display Edition" video card for $15 + shipping. It's

It sounds very interesting.

How much memory does it have? Does it work with win98SE?

not a truly modern card but it's cheap and new and very reasonable for
almost all non-gaming applications. It has VGA Output, DVI output
(which can be converted to HDMI with an adapter, OR to a SECOND,
INDEPENDENT VGA output) and TV output (both composite and S-Video).

You're sure it has S-Video? I had already been looking at ebay ads,
for ATI Radeon 7000 and didn't see any that had all of those you list:
composite (yellow RCA), S-video, DVI, and VGA. Didn't see any that
had S-video.

(I need VGA for my monitor, and I need S-video, because there is no
HDMI or DVI jack on the DVDR, and I read that S-video, though not as
good as YPgPr (which is not an option here anyhow) is better than
composite. Right? Plus they don't sell cables that are 100 feet long
for DVI, which might mean it's a bad idea, and as to connecting two
50-foot cables, why make things compllicate?)

Thanks.

It's a decent card for an older AGP machine.

That's me.

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* mm:

After reading a lot tonight, I gather if I can't use HDMI, there is no
simpler way. I need 3 cables.

I've read there are better ways than S-video, but since the largest TV
I have or expect to get is 19 inches and a couple are 15 inch, do you
think S-video is good enough?

Honestly, in my experience both the composite (CVBS) and SVHS (Y/C) TV
outs are usually awful, no matter what graphics card. However, if TV you
"expect to get" means that the device is equally ancient as your
computer then there probably are not much other options. However, if we
are talking about modern flat screen TVs then forget about the crap TV
out, HDMI is definitely the way to go.

It seems like, if I get a video card
with S-video out, it would be pretty simple compared to all the
adapters etc. I'd need to use anything better.

http://www.cablesnmor.com/qo-s-video-cables.aspx had 100 foot S-video
for 24.50 although they won't tell me what the shipping charge is
unless I give them my name etc.

I can tell you that the signal that comes out after 100ft of cable will
look like crap. As with most analogue signals, neither CVBS nor Y/C get
any better when pushed over long cables. I wouldn't go over 10ft to
avoid degrading the usually already poor image quality that comes out of
most TV out ports.

Benjamin

 

[mm]

I can tell you that the signal that comes out after 100ft of cable will
look like crap. As with most analogue signals, neither CVBS nor Y/C get
any better when pushed over long cables. I wouldn't go over 10ft to
avoid degrading the usually already poor image quality that comes out of
most TV out ports.

Well, what might I do to get past this obstacle? The DVDR is almost
100 feet from the computer. If I run the cable straight down the
hall, in front of three doorways and a stairway, it's only 50 feet,
but that won't look very nice.

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* mm:

Well, what might I do to get past this obstacle? The DVDR is almost
100 feet from the computer. If I run the cable straight down the
hall, in front of three doorways and a stairway, it's only 50 feet,
but that won't look very nice.

There is not much you can do. 50ft is still way too much to avoid the
signal look like crap. You can use one of the wireless video
transmitters to avoid the cable, however the resulting image quality
usually looks like crap as well.

The only way to avoid that is to bring DVDR and TV closer together.

Benjamin

 

[Craig Coope]

I'd appreciate some help on video cards.

I currently have an ATI Technologies 3D Rage II+ PCI video card with 4
Meg memory,

I stopped reading at this and died a little inside.

p

 

[GMAN]

I stopped reading at this and died a little inside.

p

At one time, that card was top of the line LOL!!!!

 

[Ross Ridge]

... The ATI Rage Pro/Rage II series was already crap when they were
new. There really is no reason to waste any time with such a card.

The Rage Pro was a decent 3D card for the time. Maybe not the fastest,
but the one of the first single card solutions available back then.
The original poster's ATI Rage II+ however is total crap as far as 3D
performance goes. Even on the processors of the day, software rendering
was faster.

Ross Ridge

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* Ross Ridge:

The Rage Pro was a decent 3D card for the time.

Can't confirm that. I had a few Rage Pro (and Rage II) cards (one AIW
version is still laying around somewhere), and while the performance was
good compared with other 3D GPUs of those days (Nvidia Riva128, 3DLabs
Permedia2, S3 Trio3D/ViRGE), the drivers were just crap. The shitty
drivers for Rage Pro and Rage II series cards were the main reason why
even today ATI is stuck with a reputation for bad drivers.

The original poster's ATI Rage II+ however is total crap as far as 3D
performance goes. Even on the processors of the day, software rendering
was faster.

That is not correct. Performance wasn't an issue with the Rage II series
cards, and software rendering was much slower than what this GPU could
do. BTTT many times.

Benjamin

 

[mm]

I stopped reading at this and died a little inside.

Come'on. Don't be silly. Everything works fine except google earth.

And I never wanted to use google earth until last week.

Maybe if I played video games this card wouldnt' have been enough, but
I don't.

 

[Ross Ridge]

Can't confirm that. I had a few Rage Pro (and Rage II) cards (one AIW
version is still laying around somewhere), and while the performance was
good compared with other 3D GPUs of those days (Nvidia Riva128, 3DLabs
Permedia2, S3 Trio3D/ViRGE), the drivers were just crap. The shitty
drivers for Rage Pro and Rage II series cards were the main reason why
even today ATI is stuck with a reputation for bad drivers.

I only have a Rage II+, but I had no problem with its drivers.

That is not correct. Performance wasn't an issue with the Rage II series
cards, and software rendering was much slower than what this GPU could
do. BTTT many times.

No, I can confirm it's true. I got better frame rates using software
rendering. You might be thinking of the Rage IIC which actually based
on the Rage Pro chip. The Rage II+ (and any earlier "3D" ATI cards) were
not considered useful 3D accelerators by gamers at the time. The Rage Pro
was the first 3D card that ATI made that was taken seriously by gamers.

Ross Ridge

 

[mm]

Come'on. Don't be silly. Everything works fine except google earth.

Please don't take "silly" as an insult. I got carried away.

 

[Joseph Curtin]

* mm:


You are missing that your 12(!) years old graphics card is just
rudimentarily supported in Windowsxp. Yes, the 3D Rage II+ supports 3D
acceleration but it was made when Windows95 and WindowsNT were current.
It does support OpenGL 1.x, and it does support DirectX 3 and 5, both
which are really ancient by today's standards. The ATI Rage Pro/Rage II
series was already crap when they were new. There really is no reason to
waste any time with such a card.

Not only requires Google Earth somewhat more modern APIs (IIRC it
requires DirectX 9 or OpenGL 2.x), even if it would run on your old Rage
II+ it would perform like crap (more like a very slow slide show with
low details).

Save yourself the hazzle, take say five bucks and buy a better PCI
graphics card on ebay (i.e. ATI Radeon 7000 and newer or Nvidia Geforce
2 MX or newer) which are way faster, have better drivers available, and
run Google Earth at least somewhat decent.

However, I wonder when your card is already 12 years old how about the
rest of your computer. If it is similarly antique I would refrain from
the thought to be able to run modern applications like Google Earth on it.

I have been running an ATI All-in-Wonder Rage Pro 128 on antique Asus
motherboard, 256kRam, 233Mhz, with Win98 ever since Clinton was President
(or was it Bush the First?).
I use the video output to view streaming video or to view saved video files
on my large-screen TV set, downloaded from Italian television, since I spent
a long time in Italy, and there are thousands of programs archived on the
Italian national TV site, RAI.
http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/da_rivedere.html
If I try to watch the files streaming, my old system is too slow, and I get
a jerky video. But if I save the desired wmv files, using Windows Media
Recorder, and disable all unnecessary drivers, I am able to view the files
with good results on this old system.
Now I have inherited a Compaq Presario SR2020NX desktop, which has built-in
Nvidia NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Graphics.
I have a dual-boot system on the old Win 98 system, and occasionally boot
into XP for selected operations (very slow operations, to say the least),
but the video works fine in XP.
My question is whether the old Rage Pro 128 would work on this new system?
Would the antique Rage Pro 128 work under XP on this new system? Could I
just install the Ati card as a secondary monitor?
I guess I could just stick it in there and see what flies, but I would
rather have another input before I start fooling around.

Joe from Massachusetts
(AKA Slow from Massachusetts)