What form do 'phones capture video in?

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Mine (Android 4.2.2) saved a file which I was able to move to this
computer, which I was able to view (in VLC for example). However,
VirtualDub isn't able to load it. (I use VirtualDub for editing - mainly
snipping out unwanted sections, but also rotating and trimming.)

I've been able to convert it into other formats - using VLC's saver,
also something I have called Replay Converter; however, VirtualDub still
won't load any of them. Nor will Windows Movie Maker (2.1.4028.0).

I forget what the original file was called (.avi, I think): I now have
it as .mp4, which one of my conversion attempts produced and was far
smaller (about 17M for 3.5 minutes of 640x480~10FPS: IIRR the original
was >200M), but still played in VLC no different as far as I could see,
so I kept that. But obviously within .mp4, .avi etc. there are many
variations; most videos from _other_ sources _will_ load into
VirtualDub.

Do (Android) 'phones/tablets/etc. all store in a common format (CoDec,
whatever), and how to convert them into a commoner one that more editors
recognise is known, or does each make/model use its own quirk? (The
'phone is a Doogee 300, FWIW - I've been told it appears to be a Galaxy
clone, though I'm not too bothered as it does what I want from it.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

They don't seem to want to blind me with science nor to impress me with their
superior intellect, but just to share their enthusiasm for their subject.
(Appreciative) contributor to Radio Times letters page, 26 July-1 August 2014

 

[Poutnik]

Dne 14.9.2014 v 15:27 J. P. Gilliver (John) napsal(a):

Mine (Android 4.2.2) saved a file which I was able to move to this
computer, which I was able to view (in VLC for example). However,
VirtualDub isn't able to load it. (I use VirtualDub for editing - mainly
snipping out unwanted sections, but also rotating and trimming.)

I've been able to convert it into other formats - using VLC's saver,
also something I have called Replay Converter; however, VirtualDub still
won't load any of them. Nor will Windows Movie Maker (2.1.4028.0).

I forget what the original file was called (.avi, I think): I now have
it as .mp4, which one of my conversion attempts produced and was far
smaller (about 17M for 3.5 minutes of 640x480~10FPS: IIRR the original
was >200M), but still played in VLC no different as far as I could see,
so I kept that. But obviously within .mp4, .avi etc. there are many
variations; most videos from _other_ sources _will_ load into VirtualDub.

Do (Android) 'phones/tablets/etc. all store in a common format (CoDec,
whatever), and how to convert them into a commoner one that more editors
recognise is known, or does each make/model use its own quirk? (The
'phone is a Doogee 300, FWIW - I've been told it appears to be a Galaxy
clone, though I'm not too bothered as it does what I want from it.)

I recorded a sample 1280*720*30fps video on my SONY XPERIA M Dual
with Android 4.3 by builtin Camera application.

Mediainfo* utility says the source video is very standard format,
commonly used in HW limited devices like phones.
Computers use always AVC High Profile, unless targeted to Baseline
profile device.

MP4 container
AVC Baseline profile video
AAC-LC audio

AFAIK VirtualDub as legacy application is not designed to be able to
work with modern container formats like mp4 or mkv, or modern video
formats like H264, unless there is such VfW codec installed.

MS products are known they do not like non MS multimedia standards, they
would like to enslave you to WMV format.

* - many video players like MPC-HC
use Mediainfo DLL for media information

--
Poutnik

Wise man guards the words he says,
as they may say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

 

[Paul]

Mine (Android 4.2.2) saved a file which I was able to move to this
computer, which I was able to view (in VLC for example). However,
VirtualDub isn't able to load it. (I use VirtualDub for editing - mainly
snipping out unwanted sections, but also rotating and trimming.)

I've been able to convert it into other formats - using VLC's saver,
also something I have called Replay Converter; however, VirtualDub still
won't load any of them. Nor will Windows Movie Maker (2.1.4028.0).

I forget what the original file was called (.avi, I think): I now have
it as .mp4, which one of my conversion attempts produced and was far
smaller (about 17M for 3.5 minutes of 640x480~10FPS: IIRR the original
was >200M), but still played in VLC no different as far as I could see,
so I kept that. But obviously within .mp4, .avi etc. there are many
variations; most videos from _other_ sources _will_ load into VirtualDub.

Do (Android) 'phones/tablets/etc. all store in a common format (CoDec,
whatever), and how to convert them into a commoner one that more editors
recognise is known, or does each make/model use its own quirk? (The
'phone is a Doogee 300, FWIW - I've been told it appears to be a Galaxy
clone, though I'm not too bothered as it does what I want from it.)

These things are largely a "from-to" exercise.

You look up the capabilities of the destination tool, then
use your converter program to make something the program
can handle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualdub

Video consists of "container" formats. These specify how many
tracks are inside (multiple video or audio tracks, subtitles).
A lot of video content is unimaginative, so there is just one
video track, one audio track, no subtitles. Where the container
is a challenge, is some tools are focused on just one container,
like AVI, Matroska, Apple MOV. And they won't even attempt to
open a second or third container type. That's where your
converter program comes in.

On the video and audio track, they use CODECs. These are coder/decoder
methods, that tell editors or viewer tools, how to map the ones and
zeros in the file, to pixels on the screen. CODECs can compress in
either a lossy or lossless manner. If you decompress a lossy format
then lossy recompress it again, there can be generational losses
(information loss that eventually degrades the movie to unviewable
after enough saves). Lossless compression might give a 3:1 improvement
over the original raw video. Lossy compression gives over 100:1 improvement.
The data rate at the sensor could be 250 or 400MB/sec, and a 100:1
improvement makes it easy to record even on a USB flash stick (4MB/sec).

When I worked with VirtualDub, I think I added HuffYUV codec, which
does lossless compression. If I record a movie (from my WinTV card)
using that CODEC, only the machine with that CODEC installed can
read it. Other machines would complain. And the term "lossless" in
this case is relative, as in some cases, color information is just
thrown away from the sensor, in order to keep down file size.

As Poutnik says, there is MediaInfo, and there is GSpot, which
provide info about what CODEC is used inside your container. And
they help you figure out what CODECs need to be installed. CODECs
can be installed directly into the OS (to be shared by all DirectShow
applications). But you also get the benefit of CODECs which
are held inside converter applications. A converter application
using the FOSS "libav" can handle a good selection of containers
and CODECs and get your materials into a format suited for
your editor. I prefer keeping my CODECs inside converters,
so the OS doesn't become a mess. DirectShow sometimes finds it
has more than one CODEC to do the same job, and the CODECs are
assigned weights as to which one is better to use. Some CODECs
you get off the Internet have defects, such as tipping the picture
upside down and so on. Managing CODECS by tossing them in the OS,
is an unnecessary hassle.

I happen to like VirtualDub, as I think it was one of the
few tools that the noise reduction actually worked. I've tried
a few custom programs with fancy FFT math that take all night
to run, and you can't see any good effect from those. VirtualDub
allows removing VCR head roll, by snipping off the bottom
of the video, then resizing to a common standard. But it's hardly
a video editor - if you shoot your own video, you need fade-in
and fade-out transitions, and the simple and free video editors
don't do that.

The only asset WMM has, is I like the scene detection. I can take
a TV news story, which has fade to black in it, and WMM automatically
detects "chunks". And frequently, this allows editing around
commercials, tossing out the fat and keeping the meat. If you
want actual transitions in WMM, there is a scripting language
so you can write your own.

So your tool collections would start with:

1) MediaInfo and GSpot, to indicate container and codecs.
And Wikipedia, so you can draw a diagram of how your
video goes from dissimilar source to destination, what
tools will be needed, where the converter might be needed.
2) Converter application to change container and/or codecs.
3) Editor application to apply dimensional changes, noise
reduction, transitions, general snipping.
4) Something to package the results for media. Like an
authoring tool for a home DVD. For videos viewed on mobile
devices, you might just hand out items from (3) instead.
For lame tools like WMM, your converter in (2) can rework
the output so more mobile devices can view it.

When you use a converter, *many* of the gory details are
hidden from you. If you needed to recode a video from
the command line, it would take *weeks* before you would
accidentally get it right. Video conversion has various
notions of "profiles", or best settings for a particular
situation. And placing those in a convenient menu, means
regular folks can just get on with their lives. There is
an unbelievable amount of stuff to know, if you want to
do manual conversion, and tweak for an even better result.
All I know about the topic, is any time I've tried it,
my results were a "dismal fail". A converter program
makes you feel heroic and "what's so tough about this stuff"
And that's a good thing.

HTH,
Paul

 

[Poutnik]

Dne 14.9.2014 v 15:27 J. P. Gilliver (John) napsal(a):

Mine (Android 4.2.2) saved a file which I was able to move to this
computer, which I was able to view (in VLC for example). However,
VirtualDub isn't able to load it. (I use VirtualDub for editing - mainly
snipping out unwanted sections, but also rotating and trimming.)

Note that if you use Avidemux instead of VirtualDub,
( they are similar ), it can edit MKV and MP4 and well as AVI.

By other words, you can directly edit the files from Android.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Paul <[email protected]>
writes:
[]

As Poutnik says, there is MediaInfo, and there is GSpot, which

Ah yes, I know Gspot - though I don't seem to have it on here. Must be
on one of my '98 machines.
[]

I happen to like VirtualDub, as I think it was one of the

Me too - not because it's anything great, just a simple tool I know how
to use (-:
[]

a video editor - if you shoot your own video, you need fade-in
and fade-out transitions, and the simple and free video editors
don't do that.

Not really. I don't have any film-making ambitions (-:! Just want to
trim out the parts - and sometimes the parts-of-pictures - I don't want,
the occasional rotate, and maybe a brightness/contrast tweak, all of
which VirtualDub does.

The only asset WMM has, is I like the scene detection. I can take

I'm not sure what possessed me to try it - I think I just saw mention of
it and thought it might be here by default.
[]

So your tool collections would start with:

1) MediaInfo and GSpot, to indicate container and codecs.
And Wikipedia, so you can draw a diagram of how your
video goes from dissimilar source to destination, what
tools will be needed, where the converter might be needed.
2) Converter application to change container and/or codecs.
3) Editor application to apply dimensional changes, noise
reduction, transitions, general snipping.
4) Something to package the results for media. Like an
authoring tool for a home DVD. For videos viewed on mobile
devices, you might just hand out items from (3) instead.
For lame tools like WMM, your converter in (2) can rework
the output so more mobile devices can view it.

Thanks for an excellent answer, as usual.
[]

my results were a "dismal fail". A converter program
makes you feel heroic and "what's so tough about this stuff"
And that's a good thing.

[]
That's what I wanted (-:!

I asked a question above my level of ability! What I should have said
was something like "how do I get this clip into something VirtualDub
will accept".

Thanks, Poutnik, for "if you use Avidemux instead of VirtualDub, ( they
are similar ), it can edit MKV and MP4 and well as AVI"; I'll look into
Avidemux. If it is similar enough, it may be the answer - or, I can use
it as a converter.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Radio 4 is one of the reasons being British is good. It's not a subset of
Britain - it's almost as if Britain is a subset of Radio 4. - Stephen Fry, in
Radio Times, 7-13 June, 2003.

 

[Paul]

Thanks, Poutnik, for "if you use Avidemux instead of VirtualDub, ( they
are similar ), it can edit MKV and MP4 and well as AVI"; I'll look into
Avidemux. If it is similar enough, it may be the answer - or, I can use
it as a converter.

Just a general comments about AVI. There is an extension
which breaks the 4GB barrier. The standard was prepared by
Matrox (AVI2 OpenDML). For some reason (maybe standard is
hard to read or follow), many AVI extension implementations
are broken. It is for this reason, that using AVI can cause
hair loss. (GSpot sometimes has comments about the AVI
constructions you feed it.)

I remember trying a tool on Linux, a screen grabber. It
records to AVI. So great, I do some short tests and
everything looks good. Then, I load up the Flash video
I want to copy (maybe 20 minutes worth), and let
it go.

Later, I look at the file, and the file is 4GB in size.
Already I'm suspicious. The first tool I grab to read
the AVI, tells me it is corrupted. That means you need
to test every AVI tool, to see how it handles the limits
of AVI/AVI2.

And that's a typical experience with AVI.

Some AVI tools used to break up the output on
2GB boundaries. And such tools could also handle
a series of like-named video files (considered
to be one movie) and work on them. But the whole
thing now is just a mess.

Paul

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Mine (Android 4.2.2) saved a file which I was able to move to this
computer, which I was able to view (in VLC for example). However,
VirtualDub isn't able to load it. (I use VirtualDub for editing - mainly
snipping out unwanted sections, but also rotating and trimming.)

Note that if you use Avidemux instead of VirtualDub,
( they are similar ), it can edit MKV and MP4 and well as AVI.

By other words, you can directly edit the files from Android.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the tip. I got Avidemux, and it looks good (though the help
is minimal! Yes, I've found the online help). And it can load the
problem file; it tells me it (the file) uses H264.

I tried saving in all the formats it would save in; all but one loaded
into VLC and played (the one that didn't, loaded but played audio only),
but none of them would load into VirtualDub.

If you're wondering why I didn't just use Avidemux to do my trimming, it
wouldn't work well enough for me. When playing, it made the PC
sufficiently sluggish that it was difficult to use the play and stop
keys; when I _did_ set A and B to the start and stop points I wanted
(which I could only do by playing _from the start_ up to the point,
inching, then pressing the A or B button: the "go to given time"
function didn't work) and did a save, it just saved the whole video (i.
e. ignoring the A and B I'd set); it ignored the filter I'd set (a
rotate - yes, the filter options _do_ look rather like the ones in
VirtualDub); and if I let it play to the end of the video, it (Avidemux)
closed.

So I fear AviDemux doesn't work on my system. Or, of course, I'm not
using it properly.

Is there _anything_ that will take such a file and make a raw video (no
compression), if that's what it takes, that VirtualDub will accept?
Doesn't matter how big; VirtualDub, however ancient, will compress to my
satisfaction (e. g. to MPEG4).

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Thanks, Poutnik, for "if you use Avidemux instead of VirtualDub, (
they are similar ), it can edit MKV and MP4 and well as AVI"; I'll
look into Avidemux. If it is similar enough, it may be the answer -
or, I can use it as a converter.

Just a general comments about AVI. There is an extension
which breaks the 4GB barrier. The standard was prepared by []
to be one movie) and work on them. But the whole
thing now is just a mess.

Paul[/QUOTE]

The file I'm trying to trim is about 17M, less than 4 minutes, .mp4;
IIRR the original was about 260M before I shrunk it (using VLC, IIRR). I
should have kept that I guess, but since VirtualDub wouldn't accept that
either, I thought I had nothing to lose by keeping the shrunk one.

 

[Poutnik]

Dne 17.9.2014 v 01:06 J. P. Gilliver (John) napsal(a):

If you're wondering why I didn't just use Avidemux to do my trimming, it
wouldn't work well enough for me. When playing, it made the PC
sufficiently sluggish that it was difficult to use the play and stop
keys; when I _did_ set A and B to the start and stop points I wanted
(which I could only do by playing _from the start_ up to the point,
inching, then pressing the A or B button: the "go to given time"
function didn't work) and did a save, it just saved the whole video (i.
e. ignoring the A and B I'd set); it ignored the filter I'd set (a
rotate - yes, the filter options _do_ look rather like the ones in
VirtualDub); and if I let it play to the end of the video, it (Avidemux)
closed.

So I fear AviDemux doesn't work on my system. Or, of course, I'm not
using it properly.

What is video resolution and basic HW specification of your PC ?

For cutting and saving one need not to use video playing AT ALL.
For illustrative example of commercials cutting :

Open the video.
Use slider to move to approximate time of interest.
Use Up/DOWN arrows to choose H264 I Frame(*): Frame type: I-FRM
Set A marker for starting point of cut away.(1st frame to cut )
Set B marker for ending point of cut away.(1st frame not to cut )
Use CTRL-X to cut.
Use above for all video parts to be cut away.
Set Audio/Video output as COPY to keep original video/audio formats.
Set Output format to desired container format. (For H264 video it is
usually MP4 or MKV. AVI is possible, but best to avoid it,
especially if other than mp3 audio is used.
Save it. Explicitly provide extension, related to container.

If you want to process video ( denoising, resizing ),
you have of course use reencoding with chosen target vide format )

(*) As it is H264 video, fur seamless cutting and saving without
re-encoding, it is best to cut at I frames
( frames not depending on any other frame ),that appear every few
seconds - typically 10, but is variable.

Is there _anything_ that will take such a file and make a raw video (no
compression), if that's what it takes, that VirtualDub will accept?
Doesn't matter how big; VirtualDub, however ancient, will compress to my
satisfaction (e. g. to MPEG4).

Both MPEG-4 part 2 = MPEG-4 ASP ( XviD, DivX ) and
Both MPEG-4 part 10 = MPEG-4 AVC/H264 ( X264 )
are MPEG 4.


--
Poutnik

Wise man guards the words he says,
as they may say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

If you're wondering why I didn't just use Avidemux to do my trimming, it
wouldn't work well enough for me. When playing, it made the PC
sufficiently sluggish that it was difficult to use the play and stop
keys; when I _did_ set A and B to the start and stop points I wanted
(which I could only do by playing _from the start_ up to the point,
inching, then pressing the A or B button: the "go to given time"
function didn't work) and did a save, it just saved the whole video (i.
e. ignoring the A and B I'd set); it ignored the filter I'd set (a
rotate - yes, the filter options _do_ look rather like the ones in
VirtualDub); and if I let it play to the end of the video, it (Avidemux)
closed.

So I fear AviDemux doesn't work on my system. Or, of course, I'm not
using it properly.

What is video resolution and basic HW specification of your PC ?[/QUOTE]

Single processor, 1.6G I think; 1280 by 800 native. But it _plays_
videos fine (including in Avidemux).

For cutting and saving one need not to use video playing AT ALL.
For illustrative example of commercials cutting :

Open the video.
Use slider to move to approximate time of interest.

Slider wouldn't move with the mouse. Only way I could set A and B was to
play up to the point required, then hit pause, and back and forth
frames.

Use Up/DOWN arrows to choose H264 I Frame(*): Frame type: I-FRM

Up/Down seems to go back/fwd to nearest Iframe (which seem to be start
and end of video; all other frames seem to be alternating B and P) - no
mention of H264.

Set A marker for starting point of cut away.(1st frame to cut )
Set B marker for ending point of cut away.(1st frame not to cut )
Use CTRL-X to cut. That SEEMED to work.
Use above for all video parts to be cut away.
Set Audio/Video output as COPY to keep original video/audio formats.
Set Output format to desired container format. (For H264 video it is
usually MP4 or MKV. AVI is possible, but best to avoid it,
especially if other than mp3 audio is used.
Save it. Explicitly provide extension, related to container.

I did (.mp4). Got "Crash - press OK to build crash report" or similar.
When clicked OK, Avithing disappeared.

If you want to process video ( denoising, resizing ),
you have of course use reencoding with chosen target vide format )

I tried with just the snip first.

 

[Poutnik]

Dne 19.9.2014 v 01:09 J. P. Gilliver (John) napsal(a):

Single processor, 1.6G I think; 1280 by 800 native. But it _plays_
videos fine (including in Avidemux).

Slider wouldn't move with the mouse. Only way I could set A and B was to
play up to the point required, then hit pause, and back and forth frames.

That is very strange, it is definitely not how should ADM behave.

Up/Down seems to go back/fwd to nearest Iframe (which seem to be start
and end of video; all other frames seem to be alternating B and P) - no
mention of H264.

And this is even more strange, as in every normal MPEG-4 videe,
no matter if XviD based, or H264 one,
is I-frame usually every 1-10 seconds, so 25-250 frames at 25 fps.
If it is encoded by such a strange way, it may happen, you really have
to play ( at least fast replay at background ) to get to particular
point from beginning.

As for playing ANY MPEG-4 video, if you want to start to play or just
show the still image, you have to fing last previous I-frame,
and decode frames from I-frame to chosen frame.

But, if you install Avisynth,
you can get into virtualDub
( or any other normal player or editor )
near any video you want.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Bill in Co

I'll suggest this to you again, John, if all you need is a simple mp4 editor
(cutter) for WinXP. It's a cheap ($19.95) and simple program called
"Machete". Cuts on I-frames. http://www.machetesoft.com/

For the tiny amount I'm likely to do, I rather resent paying. (Also, if
what AviDemux was showing, it looks like the video I had only had an
Iframe at the beginning. Which I agree is very odd!)

It's my first choice, if all I want to do is cut out something (on an I
frame boundary) since it is so simple. For a nice step up, I would suggest

I've just got mp3directcut, which does the same with audio; nice prog.

SolveigMM Video Splitter. I just found Avidemux a bit less dependable and
trickier to get to work right (but then again, it's free).

2

 

[Rod Speed]

Thanks for the tip. I got Avidemux, and it looks good (though the help is
minimal! Yes, I've found the online help). And it can load the problem
file; it tells me it (the file) uses H264.

I tried saving in all the formats it would save in; all but one loaded
into VLC and played (the one that didn't, loaded but played audio only),
but none of them would load into VirtualDub.

If you're wondering why I didn't just use Avidemux to do my trimming, it
wouldn't work well enough for me.

Yeah, me too. Movement thru the file is just too crude for my taste.

I normally use VideoReDo but it didn't like a particular DVR-MS
file I recorded from free to air TV using my PVR for some reason,
so I had to trim that particular one using something else.

Avidemux does work but its much too difficult to move the trim
points compared with VideoReDo so I would only use it when
I had no choice.

When playing, it made the PC sufficiently sluggish that it was difficult
to use the play and stop keys;

I don't normally trim like that with VideoReDo.

when I _did_ set A and B to the start and stop points I wanted (which I
could only do by playing _from the start_ up to the point, inching, then
pressing the A or B button: the "go to given time" function didn't work)
and did a save, it just saved the whole video (i. e. ignoring the A and B
I'd set); it ignored the filter I'd set (a rotate - yes, the filter
options _do_ look rather like the ones in VirtualDub); and if I let it
play to the end of the video, it (Avidemux) closed.

I found that the copy function worked fine for me, main oddity
was that there is no copy function for the audio, just the video.
Maybe it just sets the audio rather counter intuitively when
you specify a copy in the video tab.

 

[Rod Speed]

Whoops, those comments were actually about Xmedia Recode,
not Avidemux. Just seen Poutnik's comments about Avidemux
and it does work well for selecting the cut points. BUT it whines
about the cut points not being on IFrames, and it isnt at all
obvious to me how to ensure that they are.