Vuescan 8.2.24, what's new: "Significantly improved infrared cleaning "?

D

Don

Do you know for certain that you are blacklisted and that it is a result of
your posts to this NG? I don't remember any of your posts regarding the
above as being particularly damning.

Indeed! It only goes to show how "sensitive" Vuescan's author is to
justified criticism, yet totally unmoved by all of the Vuescan bugs.

To actually go through the trouble of keeping a score and then
emailing a user to tell him so, is certainly a new, unimaginable, low.

Looks like all of the author's rabid "assassins" who obsessively stalk
objective Vuescan critics have a lot to apologize for!

I won't be holding my breath, though... ;o)

Don.
 
E

Evo2Me

Now you've got to give him credit for his courtesy: he lets you know how
you have pissed him off! Thought he left this group, but apparently not.

He didn't want to answer anymore here, which I can understand.
 
R

Reader

Not quite the same, but Google will no longer give interviews to CNET for one
year. They didn't like an article.
 
D

Don

Not quite the same, but Google will no longer give interviews to CNET for one
year. They didn't like an article.

Which they have every the right to do. Not a very clever business
decision but being a near-monopoly Google can probably afford to.

But you're right. That's not the same because:

- Mendel paid *MONEY* to Vuescan's author
- Vuescan's author has a defective product.
- Vuescan's author is demonstrably unable to fix it.

At this point, even a semi-reputable company would apologize for the
bugs (which they can't fix) and offer to refund the money.

When Mendel (quite rightly) complained (first privately and then
publicly) the Vuescan author's reaction was a petty and vindictive
witch hunt.

Mind boggling!

Don.
 
M

Mendel Leisk

For the record, I did not complain privately about Vuescan's attachment
of ICC profiles, first. Say by email to Ed Hamrick. My first comments
on this issue were in my posting on this forum, the thread I previously
mentioned.
 
D

Don

For the record, I did not complain privately about Vuescan's attachment
of ICC profiles, first. Say by email to Ed Hamrick. My first comments
on this issue were in my posting on this forum, the thread I previously
mentioned.

Thanks for clearing that up! It was my understanding that (being a
dedicated, long time user) you were in constant communication.

So let me get this straight: There was no offer to address your
concerns. Instead (and out of the blue) you just get a nasty threat
from the Vuescan author!?!?

Wow! If so, this gets better and better... Absolutely unbelievable!

Don.
 
M

Mendel Leisk

Don said:
Thanks for clearing that up! It was my understanding that (being a
dedicated, long time user) you were in constant communication.

So let me get this straight: There was no offer to address your
concerns. Instead (and out of the blue) you just get a nasty threat
from the Vuescan author!?!?

Wow! If so, this gets better and better... Absolutely unbelievable!

Don.

That's correct. But Don, stating the obvious, you are the master of
hyperbole in matters Vuescan.

I like to make use of tools such as Vuescan, regardless of their
current shortcomings. This trip-up was very frustrating, but gave me an
oppurtunity (excuse) to start from the top once again, trying new
ideas, etc.

Funny, as we talk, do you get the feeling there's someone listening?
 
D

Don

That's correct. But Don, stating the obvious, you are the master of
hyperbole in matters Vuescan.

I just call a spade a spade and not a "single operator earth moving
implement"... ;o)
I like to make use of tools such as Vuescan, regardless of their
current shortcomings. This trip-up was very frustrating, but gave me an
oppurtunity (excuse) to start from the top once again, trying new
ideas, etc.

Oh, I understand and sympathize completely. After all I spent a good
part of 3 years wrestling with 2 versions of Nikon Scan. In the end,
my way of trying new ideas was to drop it and write my own software.

The question is at what point does one continue "throwing good money
after bad". In case of Vuescan, I see so much wrong with it that using
it seems totally incomprehensible to me. But others are happy and, as
I always say, more power to them!
Funny, as we talk, do you get the feeling there's someone listening?

ROTFL ;o) Very good! If I may say so, you're pretty good with
hyperbole yourself, Mendel! ;o)

(Hi Ed! Sent any blacklist rants lately?)

Don.
 
M

Mendel Leisk

Well, Vuescan is on "short leash". I don't touch my 16 bit linear raw
scans with it, just use it for outputting finished files.
 
F

Fernando

Hi Bart!

Sorry for the long delay.
I was on vacation and then the "Canon 5D" leak did eat up all my
attention. :)
How *could* I forget it, I have it in my default scan output
directory, ready for salvaging scans if needed. I also remember (from
checking the source) it was coded in a very well structured/readable
way.

Many thanks, but you're too kind. ;D
I did improve DFSub a bit, BTW.
Now it no longer loads the 2 images at once in memory, it no longer
needs the number of channels to be specified, and it may be marginally
faster.
Too bad it requires the ImageMagick runtime libraries v6.2.3; the
version I was using had a serious TIFF bug and I had to work around
it. So my code was no longer working with current releases, and I had
to make the switch.
Let me know if you're interested, unfortunately I no longer have a
working public site (only a PBase account, but it does not allow
binaries to be uploaded) at the moment, my ISP screwed it up badly the
FTP facility. Will have to wait till September to have a public site
again.
Okay, so if I understand correcly, you pre-process the file based on
the shadow (high density) areas and then on that Raw file (with mid-
and high-tones that now have a cast) you create a profile that
corrects the casts. It seems to me that such a profile is *very*
sensitive to exposure variations, but for given exposure levels it
might work. However, if it really work, it works ;-)

Yes, it actually works only around little scanning exposure
variations. But on the other hand, I've found (sadly) that all my
ProfilePrism scanner profiles work only around the "right" exposure.
:(

Take care,

Fernando
 
D

Don

Well, Vuescan is on "short leash". I don't touch my 16 bit linear raw
scans with it, just use it for outputting finished files.

You're taking a reasonable approach. Using the bits you've tested and
keeping away from any "iffy" stuff. And, of course, not lashing out at
innocent bystanders just because they happen to point out a few
objective facts. ;o)

But seriously, I understand. It's always difficult to drop a program
one is used to and switch to something else. Not only is there a steep
learning curve but also the inconvenience of changing the whole
workflow, which change then percolates downstream and has a habit of
upsetting a whole bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) things.

So, the natural instinct is "better the devil I know" and (grumpily)
work around problems until a tipping point is reached. That's what
software companies bank on (Microsoft, for one!) and carefully walk
that fine line. It all boils down to a balance between what is more
annoying "a program's presence" or "a program's absence". ;o)

Don.
 
F

Fernando

Yes, the status is as follows.

Intro.
It is preferable to use a slanted edge target, as the image of it will
allow to produce an over-sampled edge profile (=Edge Spread Function
or ESF). The first difference/derivative of that one dimensional ESF
is called a Line Spread Function (LSF). An LSF is identical to a 1D
integral of a 2D Point Spread Function (PSF).

Since I have not found a (generally) simple to implement method of
creating a 3D PSF out of a 2D LSF, I've taken the opposite approach.
I've created a quick-and-dirty Excel Spreadsheet that builds a
composite* Gaussian PSF, and then takes an approximate 1D integral of
it, thus producing its LSF.
This is then compared to the actual edge's LSF (calculated from the
copy&pasted Imatest output), and by using the "Solver" add-in the
squared error is minimized.

* Composite meaning that I actually take multiple (currently 3)
Gaussian PSFs with different Standard Deviations and weights (which is
a suggestion I found in an Italian paper). Other functions could be
modeled, but Gaussians have several useful properties.

Wow!
I'm trying to digest what you wrote.
Let's see:
Since deriving the actual PSF from the measured LSFs has proven
difficult, you somehow extimate an hypothetical PSF, then derive the
resulting LSFs and compare them to the actual measured LSFs, by
meaning of least squares.
But how do you exploit the differences and correct the presumed PSF?
Interesting, as it was one of my main concerns for sharing this info.
The results of the approximated PSF can be used in a variety of
programs that use built-in Deconvolution functions based on an input
kernel, but probably only few of this group's audience will have
access to such a program.

I'm looking at an iterative approach.
A spatial-based iterative convolution with 2 different kernels is
performed on the soruce image. At each pass, an error indicator is
evaluated. When the difference between 2 consecutive passes is low
enough, the algorythm stops.
Therefore, I've recently also added to my spreadsheet a High-Pass
filter kernel generator that does a similar Job, but much faster.

But this way, you won't exploit the benefits of non-Gaussian PSFs.
While with true deconvolution, you may use non-symmetrical kernels,
multiple kernels, and so on. It should also help (by using
non-symmetrical kernels) reducing the effects of motion blur.
Right? Or am I missing something?
The main difference between e.g. adaptive RL restoration and High-Pass
filtering is that RL restoration will allow to extract a bit more info
with better S/N ratio, but at the cost of a *much* longer processing
time.

Very true. I briefly had a look at MMX instructions to see if I could
use them, but they are quite intricate and not generic enough (meaning
they depend on the compiler etc.).
Still, I'd happily let my 2.3 GHz Barton take care of the task:
sharpening before printing while I surf the web. :))))
P.S. If your email address is valid, I could send you a copy of my
(beta version) spreadsheet for evaluation.

The email address I use here is suffucated by an enormous amount of
spam unfortunately.
But if you swap the domain with "libero dot it" (same username), the
resulting address is valid. :)

Thanks!

Fernando
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
Let's see:
Since deriving the actual PSF from the measured LSFs has
proven difficult, you somehow extimate an hypothetical PSF,
then derive the resulting LSFs and compare them to the
actual measured LSFs, by meaning of least squares.
Correct.

But how do you exploit the differences and correct the
presumed PSF?

The presumed PSF is generated in almost the same dimensions as the
Imatest edge profile CSV output (I use -5.75 to +9.75 pixels in 0.25
steps due to differencing), and is based on 3 different Standard
Deviations. So for all cells in a 63x63 quarter pixel square I
calculate the combined amplitudes of (in my case) 3 Gaussian PSF
distributions.

I then use Excel's Solver add-in to minimize the squared error between
the LSF (1 dimensional integral of the presumed PSF) and the 1st
difference of the edge profile. That doesn't take very long to
calculate, in the order of just a couple of seconds depending on
processing power.

In fact, I've been fiddling with the spreadsheet and have come up with
an even more accurate variation on the same theme, I take the integral
of the LSF and minimize the error with the original edge profile (that
will accommodate to irregular/noisy edge profiles better).

Now I need to tidy up the spreadsheet a bit, to avoid whatever little
human intervention is still needed after copy/paste of the Imatest
data.

Currently the only human intervention needed, besides starting the
Solver, is in setting the High-Pass filter kernel size, because that
is also calculated (experimental feature, may need some more work),
but once set it can be saved and forgotten.

<http://www.reindeergraphics.com/free.shtml#customfilter> allows to
set a 7x7 pixel convolution kernel, which is better than Photoshop's
5x5, and it allows floating point input (copy from spreadsheet, paste
in e.g. notepad txt file).
I'm looking at an iterative approach.
A spatial-based iterative convolution with 2 different kernels is
performed on the soruce image. At each pass, an error
indicator is evaluated. When the difference between 2
consecutive passes is low enough, the algorythm stops.

Sounds a bit like <http://www.ra-dec.de/bv/filter-la.html> where an
intermediate image is convolved (? the author is not clear) with a
convolution kernel and compared to the original. From the difference
between them a new intermediate image is calculated, and so on for
several iterations.
But this way, you won't exploit the benefits of non-Gaussian
PSFs. While with true deconvolution, you may use non-
symmetrical kernels, multiple kernels, and so on. It should
also help (by using non-symmetrical kernels) reducing the
effects of motion blur.
Right? Or am I missing something?

You are right, but it depends on the goal one sets. My first goal was
to reduce/compensate for the effect of the lens+AA-filter in DSLRs,
and lens+film+scanner MTF losses (AKA capture sharpening). A benefit
of Gaussians is that they are separable, i.e. the rows and columns can
be convolved in two passes with a much smaller FIR filter. Also, the
combination of several blur sources is often well approximated by a
Gaussian.

There is no fundamental problem in generating non-Gaussian PSFs, it
only complicates the calculations, and the application of them needs
very large kernels to accommodate their shape. The same goes for
HP-filters, they can be any shape.
I'm also looking into adding De-focus correction, the PSF of which
resembles more that of a cylinder than of a Gaussian.

SNIP
The email address I use here is suffucated by an enormous
amount of spam unfortunately.
But if you swap the domain with "libero dot it" (same
username), the resulting address is valid. :)

Done. Let's discuss the spreadsheet details by email until we have
something worth sharing with a larger group or with Norman Koren.

Bart
 
M

Mendel Leisk

Mendel said:
Just to save others the exercise, my "slide from hell", which cleans up
quite nicely with ICE, looks about the same as usual with this latest
version of Vuescan. In short, not very clean.

Just tried version 8.2.33. It's "what's new" includes:

"Improved infrared cleaning, especially with old Kodachrome film"

and:

"Fixed problem with blurred edges when using infrared cleaning"

First, I'd agree the blurred edges, a feature introduce a few releases
back, is remedied.

Regarding the "improved cleaning", I was disappointed to find the exact
opposite to the case, compared to the last version I tried: 8.2.31.
Using medium cleaning, with scan-from-disk produced by the same
version, the dust and scratches were much more evident with this latest
release. They seemed to be more sharply defined. Perhaps Ed's main
effort in improving the cleaning was to reduce blurring introduced by
the cleaning process? Just a guess.
 
R

Roger S.

Thanks for the update. I didn't bother download it. Version 8.2.25
has solid IR cleaning and no blurred anything so I'm going to use that
until these problems are fixed and the batch scanning works again.
 
E

Evo2Me

Perhaps Ed's main effort in improving the cleaning was to reduce
blurring introduced by
the cleaning process? Just a guess.

I doubt it.

For some time, and although I'd like to use Vuescan, I have reverted
back to Minolta's scan software when I use the SE 5400 simply because
ICE is way better than Vuescan's IRC.

I had hoped that it got at least usable over the past few iterations
but it didn't. I tried it yesterday with .33 and found VS leaving in
what should be easily subtracted, like fine but pronounced fiber-like
particles. Instead it blurred the complete image even at "light" so
much it would have been unusable.

Since the particles were still visible but blurred sharpening
afterwards would have just brought them back.
 
D

drietow

Ya I have the orriginal Minolta Elite and the ICE in the Minolta
software works much better than the IR in Vuescan. If we ignore the IR
then I'd have to say Vuescan works much much better than my Minolta
software.

It's not a perfect world.
 

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