Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

[xfile]

You need some new, different and drastic technology change to emerge

that's going to over take MS and knock MS off the box [...]

Agreed. But for home use, OS will become less relevant especially for new
users in emerging markets (in terms of computer growth rate and usage, not
in economic status), so that will open a new door for other OSes.

Information Technology really has not changed that much in 30 some years. I
am doing the same stuff technology wise with computers I was doing back in
the 1970's.

Agreed. That's the problem and challenge for the entire industry including
open source or not and part of reasons for people don't want move forward.

A side note: I disagree with what you said, "It's not the CFO that needs to
be convinced, it's the CIO, VP of IT and managers that need to be on board.
The CFO is just along for the ride".

In well managed companies (e.g. with auditing systems), CFO will need to be
convinced (by CIO, in this case) before a major budget can be allocated.
But if we are talking about any company, well, anything can and will happen.

Of course, just personal opinions.

 

[xfile]

The size of a sample needed to make accurate predictions about

a population is suprisingly small [...]

Yes, and one of the challenges, as Jupiter Jones pointed out, is how to
select the right ones (not direct quotes), and I'd also like to add, how to
reveal their true thoughts. Not necessary because people are lying, but
it's not uncommon that people don't always reveal their true thoughts,
sometimes, they just don't know it.

In any case, that's why we need experts, just like experts in computer
fields.

 

[DanS]

Funny.......after finding the link.....

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=948&tag=nl.e539

And the mention of the Forrester reports _may_ have been the same report
referenced.

It's hilarious how each side sees the results in a positive way for their
respective views.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

You need some new, different and drastic technology change to emerge
that's going to over take MS and knock MS off the box [...]

Agreed. But for home use, OS will become less relevant especially for new
users in emerging markets (in terms of computer growth rate and usage, not
in economic status), so that will open a new door for other OSes.

Information Technology really has not changed that much in 30 some years.
I am doing the same stuff technology wise with computers I was doing back
in the 1970's.

Agreed. That's the problem and challenge for the entire industry
including open source or not and part of reasons for people don't want
move forward.

A side note: I disagree with what you said, "It's not the CFO that needs
to be convinced, it's the CIO, VP of IT and managers that need to be on
board. The CFO is just along for the ride".

In well managed companies (e.g. with auditing systems), CFO will need to
be convinced (by CIO, in this case) before a major budget can be
allocated. But if we are talking about any company, well, anything can and
will happen.

Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the CFO
who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you think is
going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the game and
present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they are going to
be turned down when they come as a collective group in this case?

I have also seen it with the end-user base where the IT department back
charged the end user departments for services rendered. The VP(s)/department
heads that controlled the dollars for their respective departments wanted
change to new technology such as .NET, which the IT department refused to go
it. What do you think happened when those VP(s) of the departments came
together and put the pressure on?

Yeah, myself, my boss, and another developer put the business need case
together for those VP(s), because most of the managers in charge were
mainframe managers that controlled everything. And the VP(s) of the other
departments in turn rammed the business case right down the VP of IT's
throat. They got what was needed and what they wanted.

One has to know how to play the game.

 

[xfile]

Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the

CFO who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you
think is going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the
game and present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they are
going to be turned down when they come as a collective group in this case?

If that particular CFO doesn't know "business" needs, he/she shouldn't be in
that position in the first place. However, it's not unusual for what seems
to be "business" needs perceived by engineering dept. don't always address
the true "business" needs.

For illustration purpose only, what returns can .Net (or any other new
technology) provide in dollars regardless of its technological advancements?
Does it improve product's time-to-market so that the company will earn some
extra dollars? Does it save maintenance fees in X amount of dollars? Does
it help employees to process more orders within the same amount of time so
the cost will go down and revenue per day will go up? These are some
examples of business needs that a qualified CIO or CFO or line manager will
and should ask. I am using those as examples because too many business
needs are vague, such as improved performance or improved security.

Finally, power struggle and fighting for limited resources are nothing new
for any company. What you have experienced and witnessed are valid but they
don't necessary represent the majority case nor as a way of operating and
managing a business.

For the sake of debate, we can always use radical examples for making our
points. If for discussion purpose, a common ground should be established
before going further. I for one have no interests in pure debate.

You need some new, different and drastic technology change to emerge
that's going to over take MS and knock MS off the box [...]

Agreed. But for home use, OS will become less relevant especially for
new users in emerging markets (in terms of computer growth rate and
usage, not in economic status), so that will open a new door for other
OSes.

Information Technology really has not changed that much in 30 some years.
I am doing the same stuff technology wise with computers I was doing back
in the 1970's.

Agreed. That's the problem and challenge for the entire industry
including open source or not and part of reasons for people don't want
move forward.

A side note: I disagree with what you said, "It's not the CFO that needs
to be convinced, it's the CIO, VP of IT and managers that need to be on
board. The CFO is just along for the ride".

In well managed companies (e.g. with auditing systems), CFO will need to
be convinced (by CIO, in this case) before a major budget can be
allocated. But if we are talking about any company, well, anything can
and will happen.

Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the
CFO who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you
think is going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the
game and present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they are
going to be turned down when they come as a collective group in this case?

I have also seen it with the end-user base where the IT department back
charged the end user departments for services rendered. The
VP(s)/department heads that controlled the dollars for their respective
departments wanted change to new technology such as .NET, which the IT
department refused to go it. What do you think happened when those VP(s)
of the departments came together and put the pressure on?

Yeah, myself, my boss, and another developer put the business need case
together for those VP(s), because most of the managers in charge were
mainframe managers that controlled everything. And the VP(s) of the other
departments in turn rammed the business case right down the VP of IT's
throat. They got what was needed and what they wanted.

One has to know how to play the game.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

If that particular CFO doesn't know "business" needs, he/she shouldn't be
in that position in the first place. However, it's not unusual for what
seems to be "business" needs perceived by engineering dept. don't always
address the true "business" needs.

Don't tell me, you should tell the business community.

For illustration purpose only, what returns can .Net (or any other new
technology) provide in dollars regardless of its technological
advancements? Does it improve product's time-to-market so that the company
will earn some extra dollars? Does it save maintenance fees in X amount
of dollars? Does it help employees to process more orders within the same
amount of time so the cost will go down and revenue per day will go up?
These are some examples of business needs that a qualified CIO or CFO or
line manager will and should ask. I am using those as examples because
too many business needs are vague, such as improved performance or
improved security.

Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows a
company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide across
the US and the company's plants and facilities around the global without
the need to deploy business solution across the company using Desktop
solutions. Let's talk about .Net Biz Talk Server that allows .Net solutions
Web based, Windows Desktop based or NT service and Console based to exchange
business data in XML format between mainframe solutions and MS solutions
within a company world wide.

Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate with
other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be consumed
by a Web, Windows desktop, Console or NT Service application. Let's talk
about developing Web based solutions that internal user with in a company
can use and external users can use those same solutions. Let's talk about
how a Windows desktop application and Web based application can use the
in-hose written business with out the need to write the same solution for
both platforms.

The list is way too long as for the business needs of a company to use .NET
solutions both internally and externally.

Finally, power struggle and fighting for limited resources are nothing new
for any company. What you have experienced and witnessed are valid but
they don't necessary represent the majority case nor as a way of operating
and managing a business.

This is the type of companies I have worked for over the years. They set
their own rules and consider it just a cost to operate to do business. You
talk to them about how to manage a business not me.

<http://www.alibris.com/search/books...y Tricks and Trials of Archer Daniels Midland>


And I have to be honest with you. I really have no interest in any debate.
You happened to post to me and I responded to you. I would just as soon drop
it, because it really doesn't mean anything in some NG.

 

[xfile]

Don't tell me, you should tell the business community.

I don't think business community, in general, failed to understand it
including technical professionals. It is a teamwork and everyone has
his/her specialties.

Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows
a company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide
across the US and the company's plants and facilities around the global
without the need to deploy business solution across the company using
Desktop solutions. Let's talk about .Net Biz Talk Server that allows .Net
solutions Web based, Windows Desktop based or NT service and Console based
to exchange business data in XML format between mainframe solutions and MS
solutions within a company world wide.

Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate
with other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be
consumed by a Web, Windows desktop, Console or NT Service application.
Let's talk about developing Web based solutions that internal user with in
a company can use and external users can use those same solutions. Let's
talk about how a Windows desktop application and Web based application can
use the in-hose written business with out the need to write the same
solution for both platforms.

Those are truly good benefits, and I meant it. But at the end of the day,
one still has to put those into numbers so everyone could satisfy by their
pay raise, bonus check, dividends, and customer will appreciate faster and
more accurate service rate, delivery rate, lower price, so on?

Do you see the missing links?

As far as I am concerned, who is going to do it is less important than the
link has to be built to meet the justifications.

Well, my two cents.

 

[xfile]

And I failed to respond the last part, yes, it's just discussion between the
two

Thanks.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

And I failed to respond the last part, yes, it's just discussion between
the two

Good night, I have to hit the door coding hard finishing up part of the .Net
solution before I move on to the next part of it, Monday.

 

[the wharf rat]

Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows a
company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide across

Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate with
other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be consumed

But I don't need .net for that.

In fact, right now I'm using Websphere.

 

[Charlie Tame]

But I don't need .net for that.

In fact, right now I'm using Websphere.

Well obviously there's a lot of personal bias involved - kinda says it
all really...

 

[the wharf rat]

Well obviously there's a lot of personal bias involved - kinda says it
all really...

Personal bias has nothing to do with it. The reasons given
previously are not reasons to use .net but rather reasons to use web
services.

What compelling reason is there to use .net rather than,
say, java or even coldfusion?

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Personal bias has nothing to do with it. The reasons given
previously are not reasons to use .net but rather reasons to use web
services.

What compelling reason is there to use .net rather than,
say, java or even coldfusion?

What reason is there not to use .Net? And .Net is a standard sanctioned by
the ISO and ECMA. And on top of that .Net is more than just java or even
coldfusion with neither one of them being a standard. .Net is down to
running on cellular phones and even watches. And .Net is more than just
about the WEB solutions. That are many a .Net solutions in use or are being
developed that have nothing to do with the WEB.

http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx

The CLI makes it so.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/Aa569283.aspx

Like I told you, you have no clue about .Net. MS doesn't even own .Net.

Now, you have become of no interest to me from this point forward.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

But I don't need .net for that.

In fact, right now I'm using Websphere.

Websphere? You're going to talk to me about Websphere, as if I don't know
about it? You are some kind of a clown. There is no doubt about that in my
eyes. You and that a$$ wipe Charlie Tame don't know jack is the bottom line
about any software development in any environment Web, desktop, otherwise,
IBM, MS, Apple, or Linux too with neither one of you clowns being software
developers. You and Tame are make believe soldiers/ wanabe software
developers. That's all the two of you are about. I know that neither one of
you have really put any serious dollars in your pockets doing software
development.

 

[the wharf rat]

What reason is there not to use .Net?

I might not want to get tied to a proprietary platform that
removes any possibility of ever having any leverage with the vendor.
I might not want to run Windows Server because it doesn't scale well
horizontally (in fact, .net has issues with geographical scaling
because it's sensitive to network latency on distributed objects).
I might not be running on Intel hardware; .net doesn't run on Z/os.
Or Solaris.

There's lots of reasons why it might not be the best choice.

And .Net is a standard sanctioned by

Well, about 10% of it is. The interconnect parts. That had to be
standardized to allow other vendor's web services to connect. Want to
show me the international standard for the JIT compiler?

running on cellular phones and even watches. And .Net is more than just
about the WEB solutions. That are many a .Net solutions in use or are being
developed that have nothing to do with the WEB.

Guy, even MS claims that .net is a web services platform:

".NET is the Microsoft Web services strategy to connect information, people,
systems, and devices through software. Integrated across the Microsoft
platform," http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics.mspx

You're confusing web services with the Web you browse with IE.

MS doesn't even own .Net.

Nonsense.

Now, you have become of no interest to me from this point forward.

Well, shit, now yo've gone and plumb ruined my day. WhatEVER will
I do...

 

[the wharf rat]

Websphere? You're going to talk to me about Websphere, as if I don't know
about it?

Well, what do you know about websphere? Why isn't websphere on linux
a good alternative to .net on windows?

. You and that a$$ wipe Charlie Tame don't know jack is the bottom line
about any software development in any environment Web, desktop, otherwise,
IBM, MS, Apple, or Linux too with neither one of you clowns being software
developers. You and Tame are make believe soldiers/ wanabe software
developers.

Lol. You have no idea who you're talking to, do you?

 

[the wharf rat]

You must be one heck of an expert if it took you 2 hours to uninstall
Office 2007 and reinstall Office 2003.

It's harder than it looks. For instance, how would *you* recover
the original Office 2003 install key? It goes bye-bye with everything else
when you uninstall 2007. (Actually it might have been munged by the 2007
install, but I'll never know now.) Also it seems that the Office uninstall
leaves certain registry entries which cause the subsequent re-install to
fail with "not an upgrade" errors. And the few documents she opened and
accidentally saved were troublesome.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

I might not want to get tied to a proprietary platform that
removes any possibility of ever having any leverage with the vendor.
I might not want to run Windows Server because it doesn't scale well
horizontally (in fact, .net has issues with geographical scaling
because it's sensitive to network latency on distributed objects).
I might not be running on Intel hardware; .net doesn't run on Z/os.
Or Solaris.

LOL. It just something you have read. You have no expertise concening .NET.

There's lots of reasons why it might not be the best choice.

Really? You no more know what you're talking about than the Man in the Moon,
because I have been in shops where the decision was made between going to
Java and .Net, and the decision was made to go to .Net.

Well, about 10% of it is. The interconnect parts. That had to be
standardized to allow other vendor's web services to connect. Want to
show me the international standard for the JIT compiler?

That's what it is about CLI, and you don't even know what you are talking
concering the CLI. Again, you have no idea as to what you're talking about.

Guy, even MS claims that .net is a web services platform:

".NET is the Microsoft Web services strategy to connect information,
people,
systems, and devices through software. Integrated across the Microsoft
platform," http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics.mspx

That's only one aspect of .Net. I am setting in the trenches, foxhole and on
the firing line with the technology, and you are not. And I know what .Net
can do. I am writing a .Net solution right now that's Windows Desktop based
that has nothing to do with the WEB period, which will be deployed to a
Ctrix terminal server farm.

You're confusing web services with the Web you browse with IE.

I have written Web services that are used in N-Tier Architecture
applications with the marshalling of data between the Business Layer and
Data Access layer with the two phyiscal tiers that have nothing to do with a
brower. It's called code reuse where you deploy Web services on a Web
Server and anyone with in the Intranet (that's behind the FW if you don't
know that and I don't think you do) with any type of application such as a
Desktop, Console, NT Service or browser can consume the Web service, which
is only one aspect of .Net and can also go into communations with
application running on other platforms such as a mainframe and others that
have nothing the to do with HTTP other than using XML in the exchange of
data over TCP.

Nonsense.

The nonsense is on your part. MS gave .Net away. Not saying that MS may not
have a controlling interest with the CLI, but your boys Sun Microsystems
(who you threw up in my face with java and WebSphere ) has a vote and is on
the ISO and ECMA Standards committee along with several other leaders in
the industry that set forth what happens to the CLI.

Well, shit, now yo've gone and plumb ruined my day. WhatEVER will
I do...

What you should do is don't post to me again about anything. You are an a$$
hole in the same boat with Albright, Tame, Alias the list is long of the a$$
holes such as yourself that frequent this NG.

I don't have time for a *clown* like you. That's one that thinks he knows it
all, you have not paid your dues, and you really don't know jack.

You are a clown beyond clowns is what you are.

You take your little BS wanabe (a program developer) lip service and you lip
service someone other than me. You should stick with DRM, because as far as
I am concerned, that's the only thing you seem to know something about.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Lol. You have no idea who you're talking to, do you?

Yeah, I know exactly who I am talking to. I am talking to yesterday's,
today's and all days in the future *clown*. That's who I am talking to.

 

[the wharf rat]

Really? You no more know what you're talking about than the Man in the Moon,
because I have been in shops where the decision was made between going to
Java and .Net, and the decision was made to go to .Net.

That's a non sequitur. (Which means it's bullshit.) The fact
that it may or may not have been the best choice in one situation in no
way implies that it WAS the best choice in that situation nor does it imply
that it will be the best choice in another situation.

That's what it is about CLI, and you don't even know what you are talking
concering the CLI. Again, you have no idea as to what you're talking about.

The CLI doesn't include ASP, ADO, or WinForms. It's just the
common language interpreter.

That's only one aspect of .Net. I am setting in the trenches, foxhole and on

So Microsoft, the inventor and owner of the technology, doesn't
understand what it is? Or could it be that YOU don't understand what
web services are? I know what *I* think is more likely to be true.

I have written Web services that are used in N-Tier Architecture
applications with the marshalling of data between the Business Layer and
Data Access layer with the two phyiscal tiers that have nothing to do with a
brower. It's called code reuse where you deploy Web services on a Web
Server and anyone with in the Intranet (that's behind the FW if you don't
know that and I don't think you do) with any type of application such as a
Desktop, Console, NT Service or browser can consume the Web service, which

Stop bullshitting. It's unbecoming.