Using CSS vs DWT or both

[Guest]

Hi,
I am ready to begin creating pages. I understand CSS style sheets and
Dynamic Web Templates. Do I use the style sheets for the text and background
and use the dynamic web templates for the layout?

 

[Helpful person]

In addition, can someone also comment of the use of includes instead of
Dynamic Web Templates?

 

[Kevin Spencer]

If you understand them, why are you asking? Use whatever is most appropriate
for your requirements.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

What sort of includes are you talking about? Server-side includes, or
FrontPage include WebBots? Dynamic Web Templates are a handy solution to the
problem of making all your web site's pages have the same basic layout.
FrontPage includes, and server-side includes are somewhat limited, as they
can only be inserted as a block of HTML in the page. To have them surround
something, for example, is quite an exercise. But a DWT has editable regions
that allow you to insert content in them anywhere you like.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.

 

[Guest]

I understand the concept not the best way to use them. I have read Paul
Colligans book but am unclear on implementing the DWT and Style sheets

 

[Kevin Spencer]

DWTs should generally be used for content, as opposed to layout, which is
slightly different. Content is what objects are in the page, while layout
specifies layout characteristics, which may overlap style. For example,
layout could include using tables for positioning, but would not necessarily
include using layers for positioning. When using layers, it might be more
useful to put the positioning into a CSS style sheet.

I would recommend using CSS for all of your style/appearance layout
characteristics, only because it is easier to maintain them all from one
location which can share these among elements.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.

 

[Kulvinder Singh Matharu]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:09:01 -0700, Magnetoram

[snip]

Dynamic Web Templates. Do I use the style sheets for the text and background
and use the dynamic web templates for the layout?

I create a DWT with appropriate layout and formatting with CSS
applied. And then I apply/attach the DWT to the appropriate pages.
The pages, obviously, are authored with appropriate html/CSS coding
as applicable for any tweaks or changes that are not in the DWT (such
as the content!).

For example, this is one of my DWTs (check the source code as a
browser will likely not display all the features):
<http://www.metalvortex.com/_dwt/template2_reduced.dwt>

Note the CSS file reference.

And this is a page with the DWT attached to it (again, check the
source code):

<http://www.metalvortex.com/myphotos/south_america_2006/pages/grey_glacier.htm>

Note sure if that helps! Good luck.

--
Kulvinder Singh Matharu
Website : www.metalvortex.com
Contact : www.metalvortex.com/form/form.htm

"It ain't Coca Cola, it's rice", Straight to Hell - The Clash

 

[Tina Clarke]

In addition, can someone also comment of the use of includes instead of
Dynamic Web Templates?

If you have fp03 use a dwt with css ... and use frontpage includes for the
MENU'S .... better control ... menus are editable because they are different
on different sections ... by using an include this also cuts the work down.

Make your dwt.
make your css and apply to the dwt
make include pages for the menu section

Apply dwt to pages .. change menu include link depending on which category
of the site you are working on.

need to update the layout .. change the dwt apply to all pages they are
updated
need to udpate the menu in one section change the include and save, all
pages the include is on are updated
need to change the formatting, the site was pink now it needs to be blue ...
jon and mary had a boy when a girl was expected oops... change the colour
for the id's and classes for the header and footer from pink to blue save
the sheet the whole site is updated
recalculate links
publish

and your done.... (just an example above)

These might help.

FrontPage DWT Ebook (F ree)
http://frontpage-ebooks.com/dwt-ebook.htm

FrontPage Include Tutorial
http://anyfrontpage.com/ezine/va/frontpage-includes.htm

FrontPage and CSS
FrontPage and CSS
http://accessfp.net/frontpage-2003/tutorials/information-about-css.htm
http://accessfp.net/frontpage-2003/tutorials/creating-css.htm

Tina


Current Tip: (31st March, 2006)
Good FrontPage crafters are lazy
http://frontpage-tips.com/ - FrontPage Tips
Frontpage Tips Ebook, Vol I AND Vol 2. AVAILABLE NOW!
Join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frontpage-tips/
for F ree weekly FrontPage Tips
MORE EBOOKS COMING SOON.

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

IMHO
Use of includes w/ DWTs is counter productive
The only way to change the include selectively on any pages w/ a DWT applied is to make it an editable region in the DWT
If it is part of the non editable region you might as well edit the DWT and reapply it
- yes you could just edit the include for the DWT but it would be the same for all pages using the DWT
- if you need different content on different page you would need different DWTs

A better way to manage that would be to use SSl for the menus
- that would change the included content on a DWT controlled page based on some parameter

--

_____________________________________________
SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
"Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
http://www.frontpagemvps.com/FrontPageNewsGroups/tabid/53/Default.aspx
_____________________________________________


|
| | > In addition, can someone also comment of the use of includes instead of
| > Dynamic Web Templates?
|
| If you have fp03 use a dwt with css ... and use frontpage includes for the
| MENU'S .... better control ... menus are editable because they are different
| on different sections ... by using an include this also cuts the work down.
|
| Make your dwt.
| make your css and apply to the dwt
| make include pages for the menu section
|
| Apply dwt to pages .. change menu include link depending on which category
| of the site you are working on.
|
| need to update the layout .. change the dwt apply to all pages they are
| updated
| need to udpate the menu in one section change the include and save, all
| pages the include is on are updated
| need to change the formatting, the site was pink now it needs to be blue ...
| jon and mary had a boy when a girl was expected oops... change the colour
| for the id's and classes for the header and footer from pink to blue save
| the sheet the whole site is updated
| recalculate links
| publish
|
| and your done.... (just an example above)
|
| These might help.
|
| FrontPage DWT Ebook (F ree)
| http://frontpage-ebooks.com/dwt-ebook.htm
|
| FrontPage Include Tutorial
| http://anyfrontpage.com/ezine/va/frontpage-includes.htm
|
| FrontPage and CSS
| FrontPage and CSS
| http://accessfp.net/frontpage-2003/tutorials/information-about-css.htm
| http://accessfp.net/frontpage-2003/tutorials/creating-css.htm
|
| Tina
|
|
| Current Tip: (31st March, 2006)
| Good FrontPage crafters are lazy
| http://frontpage-tips.com/ - FrontPage Tips
| Frontpage Tips Ebook, Vol I AND Vol 2. AVAILABLE NOW!
| Join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frontpage-tips/
| for F ree weekly FrontPage Tips
| MORE EBOOKS COMING SOON.
|
|

 

[Windsun]

Agree, with one exception, and that is perhaps a navigation include. Because
you might have different navigation on some pages. Otherwise there is no
reason I can see not to put it all in the DWT.

 

[Tina Clarke]

IMHO
Use of includes w/ DWTs is counter productive
The only way to change the include selectively on any pages w/ a DWT

applied is to make it an editable region in the DWT

If it is part of the non editable region you might as well edit the DWT and reapply it
- yes you could just edit the include for the DWT but it would be the same for all pages using the DWT
- if you need different content on different page you would need different DWTs

A better way to manage that would be to use SSl for the menus
- that would change the included content on a DWT controlled page based on

some parameter

I don't think you read my post correctly .... I talk about using FrontPage
Includes for navigation ONLY .... SSI are not as easy to use for the average
user as FrontPage Includes .... and of course you make the include area menu
editable otherwise there would be no point .... menus need to be flexible
and the best solution for them (if using FrontPage) is FrontPage Includes
(NOTE: newbie's you DON'T need FPSE (FrontPage server extensions) you can
use them with or without) For someone who uses Disk based webs and FPSE
(just to publish) ... DWT, FP Includes and CSS is the quickest method ...
this is what I use.... if your using FTP to publish I know you have to
publish all pages that an include is on if you change an include so perhaps
there is some benefit to using SSI in this instance that I don't know about.
It's easy to use FP Includes for the average user though.

Whatever, use the tools that fit your particular scenario, One does not have
to be too rigid about using a DWT... I find using FP Includes for menus ....
which are always in the same place but change from page to page depending on
which section of the site you are in .... a logical and quick method. -
logical in the sense it's easy to see the menu structure once things are set
up and offers a control you can't get with the navigation bot. I'm very lazy
I use the quickest and easiest methods I can find

Tina


--
http://accessfp.net/ - FrontPage Tutorials
http://anyfrontpage.com/ - http://frontpage-ebooks.com/
http://addonfp.com/ - FrontPage Addons
http://frontpage-tips.com/ - Weekly FrontPage Tips
http://msmvps.com/blogs/frontpage/ - FrontPage News Blog
http://frontpage-blog.com/ - FrontPage Blog
http://clarke-abstract-art.com/ - Original Abstract Pen and Ink Drawings

 

[Guest]

Thank you everyone for your input. Where do layout table fit in to all this?

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:09:01 -0700, Magnetoram

[snip]

Dynamic Web Templates. Do I use the style sheets for the text and background
and use the dynamic web templates for the layout?

I create a DWT with appropriate layout and formatting with CSS
applied. And then I apply/attach the DWT to the appropriate pages.
The pages, obviously, are authored with appropriate html/CSS coding
as applicable for any tweaks or changes that are not in the DWT (such
as the content!).

For example, this is one of my DWTs (check the source code as a
browser will likely not display all the features):
<http://www.metalvortex.com/_dwt/template2_reduced.dwt>

Note the CSS file reference.

And this is a page with the DWT attached to it (again, check the
source code):

<http://www.metalvortex.com/myphotos/south_america_2006/pages/grey_glacier.htm>

Note sure if that helps! Good luck.

--
Kulvinder Singh Matharu
Website : www.metalvortex.com
Contact : www.metalvortex.com/form/form.htm

"It ain't Coca Cola, it's rice", Straight to Hell - The Clash

 

[Tina Clarke]

Thank you everyone for your input. Where do layout table fit in to all this?

It does'nt he did not mention it.... layout means where the header goes
where the footer goes where the menu goes where the content goes and so on
and so on ... formatting means the fonts and spacing etc etc etc...

Using layout tables and cells (seems to me) to add a lot of coding that you
don't need .. divs and css is much better and cleaner.

Tina


--
http://accessfp.net/ - FrontPage Tutorials
http://anyfrontpage.com/ - http://frontpage-ebooks.com/
http://addonfp.com/ - FrontPage Addons
http://frontpage-tips.com/ - Weekly FrontPage Tips
http://msmvps.com/blogs/frontpage/ - FrontPage News Blog
http://frontpage-blog.com/ - FrontPage Blog
http://clarke-abstract-art.com/ - Original Abstract Pen and Ink Drawings

 

[Guest]

Thank You,
So in your opinion. The cleaner way is to use DWT and a CSS page?

 

[Kulvinder Singh Matharu]

Thank You,
So in your opinion. The cleaner way is to use DWT and a CSS page?

Oh yes! CSS has a tougher learning curve (and I was cursing when
changing over from tables to CSS for layout, and I'm still
learning!). But eventually you realise the power and flexibility of
CSS.

Some design goal goodness here:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/separationdilemma/

Some CSS and tableless design goodness here:
http://webdesign.about.com/od/layout/a/aa111102a.htm
http://www.andybudd.com/@media2005/
http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/throwing_tables/

You will need to decide for yourself if you want to use tables or not
for layout. No one is going to force you to stop using tables for
layout!

--
Kulvinder Singh Matharu
Website : www.metalvortex.com
Contact : www.metalvortex.com/form/form.htm

"It ain't Coca Cola, it's rice", Straight to Hell - The Clash

 

[Guest]

Tina,
I am going to start my website. I plan to open a blank page insert some
tables for layout and save it a a DWT. I will link it to a CSS sheet. Is that
how you would do it?
thanks

 

[Kulvinder Singh Matharu]

Tina,
I am going to start my website. I plan to open a blank page insert some
tables for layout and save it a a DWT. I will link it to a CSS sheet. Is that
how you would do it?
thanks

I'm not sure what Tina would say, but I wouldn't quite do it that
way.

For a start, I wouldn't use tables for layout (for the reasons
explained in my other post). I would use standard (X)HTML and CSS for
layout, presentation, etc. And I would create a DWT only if I wanted
to apply that look 'n feel to two or more pages.

Remember, DWTs are Dreamweaver/FrontPage artifacts. DWTs, in essence
(and simplified somewhat), just save you the chore of rewriting the
same code on several pages.

But you're doing the right thing...learn by doing! Let us know when
you've got your test pages up for use to view.

--
Kulvinder Singh Matharu
Website : www.metalvortex.com
Contact : www.metalvortex.com/form/form.htm

"It ain't Coca Cola, it's rice", Straight to Hell - The Clash

 

[Tina Clarke]

Tina,
I am going to start my website. I plan to open a blank page insert some
tables for layout and save it a a DWT. I will link it to a CSS sheet. Is that
how you would do it?
thanks

This depends on how much CSS you know at present. When I started learning
CSS (still am) I found it very hard to understand Divs it took me the
longest time, so I used tables till I could get my head around them. Do what
makes learning easiest for YOU. If you find using tables with CSS and to
learn how to make a DWT easier then use tables to begin with, you can always
use divs further down the line.

The main goal at the moment is to learn how to make a DWT and if your more
comfortable using css with tables then use tables.

When you know more about css and divs you can change it over on the dwt and
update your pages, presuming the layout is the same or that you have used
dwtig.com guidelines. Personally I dont' like to be restricted and don't
plan on using DW so I just do what I like when making a dwt. When I changed
my accessfp.net from tables to divs I kept more less the same layout though
.... so it can work.

I make a page using either tables or divs inserting classes and id's then
put the css into a sheet which I link to the page. I then make it a dwt and
attach pages to it.

Did you look at the free dwt ebook I mentioned in my first post? Have a read
of that to help get you started along with the other articles I mentioned...

Do what makes you comfortable, but experiment, if using an existing site
make sure you BACKUP the site first. Tjhe best way to learn is to play play
play

hth Tina
Current Tip: (8th April, 2006)
How do I keep my title, meta tags and scripts intact when using a DWT?
http://frontpage-tips.com/ - FrontPage Tips
Frontpage Tips Ebook, Vol I AND Vol 2. AVAILABLE NOW!
Join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frontpage-tips/
for F ree weekly FrontPage Tips
MORE EBOOKS COMING SOON.

 

[Guest]

Thank you for your post Tina. This is my very fist website using the new
Frontpage technology. I have made a couple of sites using frames in the past.
I have read Paul colligans book Special Edition, Using Microsoft Office
Frontpage 2003. So my experience and how comfortable I am is very limited. I
am confused by all the different methods to create a page and what applies to
what. I want to make a website similar to this http://www.equipodiatry.com/
and dont know what to use.

 

[Guest]

I also realize that the site I list is pretty advanced. I just want to know
what to use to get a site that looks similar and I can add things as I become
more comfortable