UltraDMA CRC error rate below ttheshold value in SMART

O

Osiris

If a large % of Dell users are having this problem it tends
to suggest the system itself. IF Maxtors were dropping like
flies we would see a recall.

Any idea what that would cost ? and how it would relate to the profit
made on a drive ?
My guess is, it would then be cheaper to go bankrupt.
As the market is developing now (or should I say HAS developed
already) there will be only 2 or three drive makers in a few
years.(and they will reside in China. grin)
Goes for any component: MOBO, CD-R/RW/DVD, mem...
The market is consolidating at high speed.
profits are nickle-and-dime....
If that is all good... remains to be seen. consumers thrive on
competition.
Is competition in this market coming to an end ?
In the Netherlands, consumers are already getting notably more
conservative in buying "the newest / coolest" than many other
countries.
Common sense taking over again ?
 
R

Rod Speed

Osiris said:
Any idea what that would cost ? and how it would relate to the profit
made on a drive ?
My guess is, it would then be cheaper to go bankrupt.
As the market is developing now (or should I say HAS developed
already) there will be only 2 or three drive makers in a few
years.(and they will reside in China. grin)

I doubt it, there is only one manufacturer that manufactures
in china, and they dont do the design work in china.
Goes for any component: MOBO, CD-R/RW/DVD, mem...

Nope, hard drives have always been done differently and
there is no evidence that that is about to change any time soon.
The market is consolidating at high speed.
profits are nickle-and-dime....
If that is all good... remains to be seen. consumers thrive on
competition.
Is competition in this market coming to an end ?
Nope.

In the Netherlands, consumers are already getting notably more
conservative in buying "the newest / coolest" than many other countries.

Dont believe it.
Common sense taking over again ?

Nope, its happening world wide.

And the reverse keeps happening too, most
obviously with ipods and mp3 players too.
 
O

Osiris

Dont believe it.

I KNOW it
And the reverse keeps happening too, most
obviously with ipods and mp3 players too.

obvious short-lived hype.
x Gb Ipods ? who is actually USING xGB music ?
Tastes change too quickly to be able to hear xGb if music ;-).
Complete Mozart is how many Mb ?
Nobody really WANTS those things: people want to HEAR music. Not HAVE
it...
 
R

Rod Speed

I KNOW it

No you dont. You have no way of knowing
what happens in 'many other countrys'
obvious short-lived hype.

Nope, it will turn out to be just the same as
cellphones, they'll be with us forever now.
x Gb Ipods ? who is actually USING xGB music ?

Its handy to have everything you have music wise in the
system so you can play anything you want any time you want.
Tastes change too quickly to be able to hear xGb if music ;-).

Wrong, as always.
Complete Mozart is how many Mb ?

Depends on the quality you want.
Nobody really WANTS those things:
people want to HEAR music. Not HAVE it...

Have fun explaining most people's CD collection.

Its just a better and more effective way of doing the same thing.
 
O

Osiris

No you dont. You have no way of knowing
what happens in 'many other countrys'

Thee are people who's business it is to investigate things like that
and those same people PUBLISH their knowledge.
New to you ?
Nope, it will turn out to be just the same as
cellphones, they'll be with us forever now.

Not anythning like the contraptions we get now.
Its handy to have everything you have music wise in the
system so you can play anything you want any time you want.

No , it is not: it is bewildering.
Wrong, as always.

Argument ?
Depends on the quality you want.

Not 10 gb
Have fun explaining most people's CD collection.

easy: they/we HAVE TO, given the play systems.
Some time ago about 2meters CD's were stolen from me. I did not want
to replace them, because my tastes had changed. conclusion: I had 2
meter CD's I did not need.
CD's seem to be not THAT valuable a posession as you think they are.
Everyones taste changes over time.
Music changes...
CD's do not (that quickly). Plastic is forever, so to speak, taste is
for this year.
Music is what goes into your ear. Not what is on CD.
 
O

Osiris

Have fun explaining most people's CD collection.

Exactly my point:
People HAVE CD collections. They not necessarily PLAY them.
The mechanism is this, I think:
I hear music , I like it and want to hear it at my own time, not being
dependent on some plugging CD jockey.
For that I have to HAVE a music carrier and a player. In principle it
is totally irrelevant, what kind of machine/carrier.
The CD is means to an end.
CD sales are plumetting. Because of the MP3 phenomenon. Another sign,
that ppl do not really WANT CD's.
Pll only BUY CD's nowadays for the booklet, it seems. Otherwise they
just steal an MP3.
This would suggest there is even a resistance to HAVE CD's, because
ppl seem to be prepared to put aside the moral implications of
stealing.

People are comfortable with the volatility/flexibility of the carrier
medium (magnetic, chip). Because it is in line with the
volatility/flexibility of their taste.
When the HD crashes, only a small percentage of the MP3 collection
will be restored/downloaded again.
(MP3 CD dumps: same as any other CD)

Of course some ppl collect CD's. But some, only SOME, ppl collect
bottle caps and matchboxes...
No real argument to generalize the connection between HAVING and
NEEDING/WANTING.

Concluding:
To be able to hear music at will, you only need access to the sound at
will. And that is enough.
Imagine a flat little panel on the wall at home, through which (eg.
via the telephone line or cable or wireless) you could get at a really
hughe database of music. A screen with text about the music, picture
of the artist. Price: 0.02 US dollar per play, automatically payed.
That is definig ACCESS TO, I'd say.
Wouyld you EVER buy a CD anymore ?
Not me. Not ever.
 
M

meow2222

kony said:
At the 4 year mark he
has indeed gotten a fair value out of it. At that point
even if it does still work, it is relatively slow, and the
liability of continuing to use it exceeds it's value.

blimey, I'd better put most of our perfectly good PCs in the skip then.
I dont understand this Newness Disease.


NT
 
K

kony

I don't think so: when values go BELOW threshold, a problem may occur.
As long as they stay above, problems are unlikelier.
they seem to count DOWN...
http://www.almico.com/sfarticle.php?id=2

But maybe you mean to say the same thing...

I hope you do not need to re-interpret your own readings now...

Almico is not a HDD manufacturer. They decide how to use
SMART, all that is required to be standard is the query and
feedback of pass/fail AFAIK.

We're talking about a different value though, an absolute
thresold is one at which the drive is deemed unsuitable by
the manufacturer and in general scientific terms staying
below that threshold is a good thing. When talking about
0-255 as the article does, they have converted the value to
mean something else and the interpretation depends entirely
on the conversion process.

Regardless, again it is the HDD manufacturer who determines
when a change in value is significant to set the smart flag,
not a 3rd party program interpreted by a 4th party website
or a 4th party website interpreted by a 5th party user.
 
K

kony

blimey, I'd better put most of our perfectly good PCs in the skip then.
I dont understand this Newness Disease.


If the data isn't valuable, maybe loss isn't important.
Same with downtime, if it fails and the system can sit
unusable, the failure wasn't significant. On the other
hand, data is quite easily more valuable than the ~$50 it
might cost for an equivalent or better modern drive and
downtime likewise... if the two aren't worth far far more
than the $50, often the time to simply reinstall everything
and salvage what data can be salvaged is worth that.

Many people do understand this issue, server drives as well
as whole systems are often replaced in a corporate
environment _before_ they fail for this reason rather than
being too slow.
 
K

kony

Any idea what that would cost ? and how it would relate to the profit
made on a drive ?
My guess is, it would then be cheaper to go bankrupt.

Guess whatever you like, it's no different than recalling
any other product.
 
R

Rod Speed

kony said:
Almico is not a HDD manufacturer. They decide how to use
SMART, all that is required to be standard is the query and
feedback of pass/fail AFAIK.

We're talking about a different value though, an absolute
thresold is one at which the drive is deemed unsuitable by
the manufacturer and in general scientific terms staying
below that threshold is a good thing. When talking about
0-255 as the article does, they have converted the value to
mean something else and the interpretation depends entirely
on the conversion process.

Regardless, again it is the HDD manufacturer who determines
when a change in value is significant to set the smart flag,
not a 3rd party program interpreted by a 4th party website
or a 4th party website interpreted by a 5th party user.

That last is just plain wrong when the software analyses the
change in the value over time and also considers the threshold.
Most obviously with the reallocated sector count.
 
R

Rod Speed

kony said:
(e-mail address removed) wrote
If the data isn't valuable, maybe loss isn't important.

Or anyone with a clue has full backups of anything that is important
and so there isnt any point in discarding the drive when its passed
some calenda mark you have plucked from your arse.
Same with downtime, if it fails and the system can sit unusable,
the failure wasn't significant. On the other hand, data is quite
easily more valuable than the ~$50 it might cost for an equivalent
or better modern drive and downtime likewise...

See above.
if the two aren't worth far far more than the $50,
often the time to simply reinstall everything and
salvage what data can be salvaged is worth that.

Wrong again with a decent RAID/mirror.
Many people do understand this issue, server drives as well
as whole systems are often replaced in a corporate environment
_before_ they fail for this reason rather than being too slow.

Doesnt mean that that makes any sense with personal desktop
systems which have vastly different economics involved with
what work needs to be done when things arent time critical.
 
R

Rod Speed

Thee are people who's business it is to investigate things like that

Or claim to, anyway.
and those same people PUBLISH their knowledge.

Pity no one has done that with that stupid claim you made.
New to you ?

Nothing new about your pathetic excuse for bullshit.
Not anythning like the contraptions we get now.

Fraid so on whether they're with us forever now,
just like PCs, laptops, cellphones, etc etc etc are too.

They're just the latest form of personal on demand
music, which even you should have noticed has
been around for well over a century or more now.
No , it is not: it is bewildering.

Only for those who are easily bewildered. Your problem.
Argument ?

True of yours in spades.
Not 10 gb

Most ipods and mp3 players arent 10GB.
easy: they/we HAVE TO, given the play systems.

You dont have to have them anymore. The world's moved on forever, again.
Some time ago about 2meters CD's were stolen from me.
I did not want to replace them, because my tastes had
changed. conclusion: I had 2 meter CD's I did not need.

While that may well be true for you, it aint for everyone.
CD's seem to be not THAT valuable a posession as you think they are.

I never ever said a word about being valuable.

I JUST said that ipods and mp3 players are the most
recent way of doing a personal on demand music
collection and that its here to stay, it aint short lived hype.
Everyones taste changes over time.

Wrong, as always.
Music changes...

Some dont bother with music that changes. Most obviously with Mozart.
CD's do not (that quickly).

Yes, but plenty prefer the convenience of their entire CD collection
in a tiny box they can use any time they want to play anything.

No chance of everything getting stolen either if you have a clue.
Plastic is forever, so to speak, taste is for this year.

Have fun explaining Mozart.
Music is what goes into your ear. Not what is on CD.

Pathetic, really.
 
R

Rod Speed

Exactly my point:
Nope.

People HAVE CD collections. They not necessarily PLAY them.

And some prefer a more convenient alternative, their entire
music collection in a single tiny box that can be used anywhere.
The mechanism is this, I think:
I hear music , I like it and want to hear it at my own time,
not being dependent on some plugging CD jockey.
For that I have to HAVE a music carrier and a player. In
principle it is totally irrelevant, what kind of machine/carrier.
The CD is means to an end.

And that is why so many dont bother with CDs anymore
and prefer the more convenient format of mp3s etc.

So that clearly isnt short term hype as you claimed.
CD sales are plumetting. Because of the MP3 phenomenon.
Another sign, that ppl do not really WANT CD's.

So mp3 players are cleary not short lived hype, as you claimed.
Pll only BUY CD's nowadays for the booklet, it seems.
Otherwise they just steal an MP3.

Or buy mp3s if they arent into theft.
This would suggest there is even a resistance to HAVE CD's, because
ppl seem to be prepared to put aside the moral implications of stealing.

Yes, they have always stolen, and its much more convenient
to steal now with mp3s, so its not short lived hype.
People are comfortable with the volatility/flexibility of the carrier medium
(magnetic, chip). Because it is in line with the volatility/flexibility of their taste.

And others who dont bother with that sort of volatility also prefer
the convenience of mp3s and have enough of a clue to ensure that
their collection is adequately backed up so it cant ever be lost or stolen.

So again, it clearly isnt short lived hype, in spite of your claim.
When the HD crashes, only a small percentage of the
MP3 collection will be restored/downloaded again.

And anyone with a clue ensures that nothing ever
gets lost, even if the mp3 player is stolen etc.
(MP3 CD dumps: same as any other CD)
Of course some ppl collect CD's. But some, only
SOME, ppl collect bottle caps and matchboxes...

Plenty more collect music in some form
or other than ever collect that other crap.
No real argument to generalize the connection
between HAVING and NEEDING/WANTING.

Wasnt even being discussed. What was actually being
discussed was your stupid pig ignorant claim that mp3
players are short lived hype, when in fact they are just
the latest format for personal on demand music that is
here to stay, just like PCs, laptops, cellphones etc are.
Concluding:
To be able to hear music at will, you only need
access to the sound at will. And that is enough.

And mp3 are currently the most convenient way of doing that.

It isnt short lived hype as you stupidly claimed.
Imagine a flat little panel on the wall at home, through which (eg.
via the telephone line or cable or wireless) you could get at a really
hughe database of music. A screen with text about the music, picture
of the artist. Price: 0.02 US dollar per play, automatically payed.
That is definig ACCESS TO, I'd say.
Wouyld you EVER buy a CD anymore ?
Not me. Not ever.

Plenty would still have a portable mp3 player
so they can listen to music outside their house.

It isnt short lived hype as you stupidly claimed.
 
R

Rod Speed

kony said:
Guess whatever you like, it's no different than recalling
any other product.

In practice it is, essentially because there is no
personal safety involved, so few bother to do it.
 
K

kony

Or anyone with a clue has full backups of anything that is important
and so there isnt any point in discarding the drive when its passed
some calenda mark you have plucked from your arse.

There's a word for someone who trusts valuable data to an
old hard drive. Negligent.

Even when one makes backups, they're not doing it after
every single document nor safeguarding against system
downtime... unless of course they'd other precautions too,
but just as these other precautions are another safeguard,
so is retiring drives instead of gambling on how long
they'll last.


See above.

Don't need to, your argument for "full backups" are only as
good as the moment the backup was made and doesn't counter
everything, not when it's being contrasting with retiring a
drive worth $10 (if that) to rotate in newer drive.

Wrong again with a decent RAID/mirror.

Sure, that's yet another safeguard, but not enough reason to
use 4-5+ year old drives till the moment they fail.
Doesnt mean that that makes any sense with personal desktop
systems which have vastly different economics involved with
what work needs to be done when things arent time critical.

So now we (I mean you), are only considering personal
desktop systems. Ok, but what's that vastly different
economic involved? One can get a 160GB HDD for about $40
after rebate, if it lasts 10 years that's $10 per year.
Those supposed RAID arrays you propose, as well as the "full
backup" will cost more than that so it is not I that propose
something going against your late proposal for "different
economics".

Go right on using 'em till they fail Rod, if it makes you
feel special.
 
R

Rod Speed

There's a word for someone who trusts valuable data to an old hard drive.

Lying, as always. I dont ever do anything like that.

ANYTHING THAT CANT BE READILY
REPLACED IS ALWAYS FULLY BACKED UP.
Negligent.

Pathological liar.
Even when one makes backups, they're
not doing it after every single document

Wrong, as always. That is done with
every single document that matters.
nor safeguarding against system downtime...

System downtime doesnt matter a damn with most personal
desktop systems with the sorts of failure rates actually seen
with hard drives that are over 4 years old.

If system downtime is crucial, anyone with a clue
uses a config which has no system downtime.
unless of course they'd other precautions too, but just
as these other precautions are another safeguard, so is
retiring drives instead of gambling on how long they'll last.

No gamble what so ever involved in ensuring that anything
that matters is ALWAYS backed up and having whatever is
needed to adequately cover system downtime requirements.
Don't need to, your argument for "full backups" are
only as good as the moment the backup was made

Wrong again, most obviously with mirroring.
and doesn't counter everything,

Yes it does, even countering the house burning down etc.
not when it's being contrasting with retiring a
drive worth $10 (if that) to rotate in newer drive.

No point in bothering to do that when the system has been
adequately configured to ensure that nothing can ever be lost.
Sure, that's yet another safeguard, but not enough reason
to use 4-5+ year old drives till the moment they fail.

Wrong, as always with the failure rates of drives that old seen.
So now we (I mean you), are only considering personal desktop systems.

Another lie, that's what the OP was asking about.
Ok, but what's that vastly different economic involved?

Most obviously you dont need some highly paid
monkey to show up and swap out a failed drive.
One can get a 160GB HDD for about $40 after
rebate, if it lasts 10 years that's $10 per year.

Irrelevant to the reason that those operations that swap out drives
in a calenda basis do that. They dont get those drives for anything
like that, and there is the tiny matter of the highly paid monkey that
has to be paid to show up and swap out a failed drive etc.
Those supposed RAID arrays you propose, as
well as the "full backup" will cost more than that

And provide one hell of a better protection for the data.

And mirroring to extra capacity on other drives on the lan with
drives that are bought larger than they would otherwise be
have even better economics than what you just waved around.

AND you have just plucked that 4 years out of your arse anyway.

You dont have a shred of rigorous statistical evidence for
swapping the drive after 4 years instead of say 2 years or 6.
so it is not I that propose something going against
your late proposal for "different economics".

Nothing late about it, child, anyone with a clue realises
that what can make sense with commerical operations
that have to pay highly paid monkeys to swap out hard
drives has NOTHING to do with what make sense with
the personal desktop systems being discussed.
Go right on using 'em till they fail Rod,

I will, and I dont need your permission to do that thanks, child.
if it makes you feel special.

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

I do that because I've got enough of a clue to realise that
the only thing that makes any sense is to have full backups
of anything that matters and that the failure rate of modern
hard drives used properly is so low that it makes no sense
whatever to be swapping drives out that are 4 years old
and that you have just plucked that 4 years from your arse,
the same place you always get your mindless silly shit from.
 
R

Rod Speed

Some stupid pseudokraut that cant even manage to get even the
simplest stuff like what mp3s are about, desperately cowering behind
Osiris' wrote just the puerile shit that you'd expect from a desperately
cowering pseudokraut that cant even manage to get even the simplest
stuff like what mp3s are about to spew.
 

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