The question is?????

[Joe]

Why are we putting up with all this crap. 'My problem is' this don't
work, that has a fault, I pressed this key, that key. Now if this was a
million dollar airplane, or a few grand car, would we put up with it.
Talk about Microsoft having us by the balls, games don't work without
patches, the Windows XP is so screwed up they have so many help desks
that give out rubbish.
This has all be said before, nobody gives a dam, give us your money and
we will sort the problems 'later' Well no how about sorting the problems
before you release the software.
This e-mail will be ignored or rubbished by our MPV friends.
Joe

 

[Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User]

Yet another 'kfa'.. btw.. do you have many 'MPV' friends?..

 

[Joe]

Yet another 'kfa'.. btw.. do you have many 'MPV' friends?..

I just knew it one of you would reply.
Ok here we go, My first computer was a Sinclare, then a Dragon, moved
on to a BBC. All of a sudden the PC arrived via Workgroups. Great, did
all the 486 stuff, Then Windows 98, WOW. Hang on windows 98 SE, what
happened, upgrades were to big, lets have a new O/S. Ah, ME now this is
the end to end all O/S fixes.
Well no it had to be another Windows XP was the ultimat. I have no
problems with 'New' but why can't it be tested and found fit for Joe
public to use. We have Beta from one to whatever. I enjoy my computer
it has opened a new world for me, as an aside I am 68 so I can look back
not so with the kids!!
Will U ignore this or shall we have a thread??
Joe

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Why are we putting up with all this crap. 'My problem is' this
don't work, that has a fault, I pressed this key, that key. Now if
this was a million dollar airplane, or a few grand car, would we
put up with it. Talk about Microsoft having us by the balls, games
don't work without patches, the Windows XP is so screwed up they
have so many help desks that give out rubbish.
This has all be said before, nobody gives a dam, give us your money
and we will sort the problems 'later' Well no how about sorting the
problems before you release the software.

This e-mail will be ignored or rubbished by our MPV friends.

Why? You have your right to your opinion and the right to express it.

Does Microsoft have you by your balls - or is it the fact that the other
software you choose to run only has Microsoft Windows versions? What about
these games you mention? How do they run on Macintosh? On *nix? On any
other OS? Sure - you could say they wrote for the Microsoft OS because
Microsoft has them by the balls too - but it is more likely that they want
the largest audience. And as for needing patches to run said games - how is
that Microsoft's fault? The game writers made the game to run with a
certain set of code on a certain OS - they chose to do that. Not Microsoft.

Who has whom by the balls and whom is letting them grab 'em?

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Ok here we go, My first computer was a Sinclare, then a Dragon,
moved on to a BBC. All of a sudden the PC arrived via Workgroups. Great,
did all the 486 stuff, Then Windows 98, WOW. Hang on windows
98 SE, what happened, upgrades were to big, lets have a new O/S. Ah, ME
now this is the end to end all O/S fixes.
Well no it had to be another Windows XP was the ultimat. I have no
problems with 'New' but why can't it be tested and found fit for
Joe public to use. We have Beta from one to whatever. I enjoy my
computer it has opened a new world for me, as an aside I am 68 so I
can look back not so with the kids!!
Will U ignore this or shall we have a thread??

So it is not Microsoft you have a problem with, but change?
You expect perfection? No bugs?

You could have been using *nix all this time - but would you have wanted to
stay current there either?
(You'd have had to - there's security holes, bugs, changes there too..)

How about the macintosh OS series?
(They rewrote the entire thing between 9 & 10.. And there have been at least
4 full new releases of that code since then and numerous patches.)

Ever played with any of the many alternative OSes that have come and gone?
(And they are still appearing - and disappearing.)

There's a reason that Mac OS X is now v10.4.3 and was totally re-written
from scratch at 10.0 (from 9). There's a reason there was Windows 3.11,
Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows 98SE, Windows ME, Windows NT, Windows 2000,
Windows XP, Windows 2003, Windows 2003 R2 and now Vista. There's a reason
there are many flavors of *nix and many desktop environments to choose from
and why things are always coming out with new versions.

Advancement. Two way street though. You get a better product that affects
so many people and someone else wants to find a way to mess that up/play
with the possibilities.. You throw networks and the Internet in the mix -
sure - you get better communication and a worldwide forum to discuss
things - but you get people who see ways of using it to their advantage and
others disadvantage.. Or perhaps someone who just thinks it is cool to see
something they did affect whole groups without them trying too hard.

Sure - less people died in motorized vehicle (plane/train/automobile)
accidents when there were none - but would you like to be without those
modes of transportation now?

Sure - people had more (for lack of a better way of putting it) "people
skills" when they couldn't call up/email/instant message anyone they liked
and never actually leave their home - but are you willing to give up the
instant communication to almost anywhere on the planet so a few recluses can
communicate in person better?

Lanterns and candles worked great for producing light and people got more
rest when there was nothing else to do - so maybe they actually physically
produced more with less machinery at some point in time with all those
factors included - but for innovation, there is a price to pay.

Some might consider it a loss of humanity - others might see it as an
advancement to the "next level" and others might be completely indifferent
to the whole thing.

In the end - there is never advancement without mistakes. There is hardly
ever advancment without some other people tagging along to see how they can
use the new technology for their own means - even at the detriment of
others.

Cars used to have maximum speeds under 30MPH.
Now they top 100MPH easily.

Dial-up modems at 1200 baud really made the 300 baud people happy.
Now people have cable modems/dsl and other high speed connections in their
home.

Food storage was putting it in a bucket in the well or drying it out.
Now we have canned food and supermarkets with an endless stream of fresh
foods you don't have to store - you just get what you need.

There used to be punch cards - hundreds upon thousands of them that had to
be kept in order.
Now we have millions of lines of code that can be compared with other
applications written in hundreds of lines of code to the previous version to
see the changes highlighted for us.

If you ever believe anyone invents something that is the "ultimate and final
version", then you need to go back and buy that bridge and that large statue
for the $1000 each from that guy you met on the street that time. They'll
look good in your yard. *grin*

 

[Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User]

Ah, BBC computers, BBC Basic in ROM form.. the BBC wordprocessor and
spreadsheet was too.. in fact, there were a number of ROMs available, all
incorruptible.. all you ever had to do was reboot in order to get back to
the starting point.. programs on tape that wouldn't load a second time, and
then 5.25 and 3.5 diskettes.. but you couldn't exactly personalise the
machine, could you?.. not much room for manoeuvre.. quaint graphics modes..
7 was best for text as I remember.. a great learning machine though.. like a
first primer in computers.. do you remember making menus up for stuff that
you stored on the old floppies?.. fun, wasn't it.. learning about
directories and file systems.. DFS and then ADFS.. great stuff.. one could
learn a lot from the venerable Beeb..

Is that what you want now?.. can you imagine how limiting it would be?.. do
you still have one?.. I gave mine to a school way back when.. a BBC Master
512.. loads of ROM cartridges, software on diskettes, external 5.25 drives,
and a Winchester Drive.. books and manuals of all kinds.. in some ways, I
wish that I hadn't.. I had hours of fun on it and earlier models that I
owned..

The point is that you get to the stage where you think that a computer must
be capable of more.. enter the PC.. greater complexity, more to learn, more
pitfalls.. customization comes at a price.. versatility.. "where would you
like to go now?".. with the old computers, you knew where you could go, and
where the trip would end.. with a PC, the journey is almost endless..

The vehicle used for a long journey has to be ready for anything, and well
maintained, and the vehicle driver must remain alert.. unfortunately, the
vehicle is not always as ready as it should be, maintenance has slipped, and
the user is not as alert as one should be.. such is the journey with a PC..

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

I just knew it one of you would reply.
Ok here we go, My first computer was a Sinclare, then a Dragon, moved
on to a BBC. All of a sudden the PC arrived via Workgroups. Great,
did all the 486 stuff, Then Windows 98, WOW. Hang on windows 98 SE,
what happened, upgrades were to big, lets have a new O/S. Ah, ME now
this is the end to end all O/S fixes.
Well no it had to be another Windows XP was the ultimat. I have no
problems with 'New' but why can't it be tested and found fit for Joe
public to use. We have Beta from one to whatever. I enjoy my computer
it has opened a new world for me, as an aside I am 68 so I can look
back not so with the kids!!
Will U ignore this or shall we have a thread??

You and I are the same age. I am also 68. I go back much further than you
with computers though. I started using them professionally in 1962, as a
programmer on an IBM 1401.

Microsoft has released numbers of different versions of Windows, as you
point out, and in general (there has been an occasional exception) each has
been better than its predecessor. However none has been the "ultimate," and
none has been "the end to end all O/S fixes." There will never be an
ultimate and there will never be an end to all fixes.

Developing any piece of software as big as an operating system is an
enormous undertaking. Windows XP has millions of lines of code in it,
developed by many different programmers. Any attempt to make such a beast
"perfect" would fail by the very nature of the process. With something this
large and this complex, the more you test, the more bugs you find. If you
wait to fix all the bugs, new ones will be found faster than you can fix
them, and no product will ever get released. Not to mention that you can
prove the presence of bugs if you find them, but you can never prove their
absence. Except for a trivial program of the "Hello World" ilk, there is no
such thing as bug-free software.

So what does Microsoft, or any software developer, do? They test and fix,
test and fix, until they are comfortable that the remaining bugs are few
enough, have small enough consequences, and occur rarely enough that it's
wise to release the product. Note that that's not a clear-cut decision that
every person will make the same way. In general Marketing pushes to end
testing and get the product out the door sooner, and Quality Assurances
pushes to continue testing longer and make the product better.

This is the very nature of the software development process. With minor
variations, the same thing goes on in every software development company,
whether big or small, and whether they are developing operating systems,
applications, utilities, games, or what have you. There is no choice.
Waiting for the product to be perfect just isn't a option because you never
get there.

That doesn't mean that all products are equally stable. In some instances,
the marketing folks prevail, and products are released earlier than they
should; in other instances the QA people prevail and the product ends up
more stable. Again, there's no simple way to measure and decide when to
release, and decisions are made differently by different people, and in
different circumstances. For example, if your competitor just released a new
version, the pressure on you to release sooner is greater.

All of that said, with respect to WIndows XP, in my experience and in that
of most other Windows XP users I know and support, Windows XP is clearly the
best and most stable version of Windows ever released. That certainly
doesn't mean it's perfect (again, no software product is) but most of us
experience far fewer problems that we have with earleir versions of Windows.

Complicating the entire issue of stability and bugs is that many problems
which have nothing at all to do with the operating system itself are often
blamed on Windows. Unfortunately it isn't always easy for a user (especially
an unsophisticated one) to know that his problem is not with Windows, but
with hardware, applications, viruses, spyware, lack of knowledge of how to
do something, or just general misuse of the product. I've seen lots of
people who have complained about how Windows XP was causing them all sorts
of problems, only to find that their problems were not Windows-related at
all. In fact I'll go even further than that, and say that in my experience
the vast majority of problems that people blame on Windows XP turn out to
have nothing to do with Windows at all.

 

[Kerry Brown]

Nice troll, hooked a few.

 

[Tom [Pepper] Willett]

....and they really fed him well.

Tom

Nice troll, hooked a few.

 

[Pat Garard]

G'Day Joe,

Now if this was a million dollar airplane ...

A rookie like you wouldn't get to tinker with it! End of story!!

Windows 3.1 would probably suit you fine - but the rest of us wanted
something a little bit better.

Xp IS better, more complex and, if a rookie fouls it up, a real bitch to
fix.

For the vast majority of us it works just fine!!

The biggest problem is OUR OWN IGNORANCE - and that's mostly
why we all hold each other's hand here.

The thing we have real difficulty with is the omni-directed anger of poor
souls such as you, whose only contribution is to PI$$ all over everyone
in sight.

Get your emotional incontinence fixed! See a shrink! Now!

 

[Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User]

Tom, Kerry

You saw fit to add your names to the thread..

Bear this in mind.. many read all of these posts, and learn a great deal
from them.. are we to let them read the words of a troll and believe what
they see, or should we offer a 'how it really is' view?..


--
Mike Hall
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User

...and they really fed him well.

Tom

 

[Kerry Brown]

I agree with you to a certain extent but this was such an obvious troll. I
admit to begrudgingly admiring a good troll that has a bit of humour. I
found this one funny. My response was meant to show others that this was a
troll without feeding the troll.

--
Kerry
MS-MVP Windows - Shell/User

Tom, Kerry

You saw fit to add your names to the thread..

Bear this in mind.. many read all of these posts, and learn a great
deal from them.. are we to let them read the words of a troll and
believe what they see, or should we offer a 'how it really is' view?..

...and they really fed him well.

Tom

Nice troll, hooked a few.

--
Kerry
MS-MVP Windows - Shell/User

Joe wrote:
Why are we putting up with all this crap. 'My problem is' this
don't

 

[Joe]

G'Day Joe,

A rookie like you wouldn't get to tinker with it! End of story!!

Windows 3.1 would probably suit you fine - but the rest of us wanted
something a little bit better.

Xp IS better, more complex and, if a rookie fouls it up, a real bitch
to
fix.

For the vast majority of us it works just fine!!

The biggest problem is OUR OWN IGNORANCE - and that's mostly
why we all hold each other's hand here.

The thing we have real difficulty with is the omni-directed anger of
poor
souls such as you, whose only contribution is to PI$$ all over
everyone
in sight.

Get your emotional incontinence fixed! See a shrink! Now!
--
Get Well Soon,
Pat Garard
Melbourne, Australia
_______________________

Thx to all who contributed to the discussion. I have now discovered that
Microsoft is the top of the heap, they have no problems. Bad software
from other companies, people who have no knowledge of PC's are to blame
for any problems.
Joe

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Joe;
You have choices.
Microsoft does not have you.
You have chosen Microsoft.
If you do not want Microsoft, choose something else.
Then go to a forum/newsgroup specializing in that product.
There will probably be many there willing to help you with whatever option
you choose.
You would be far from the first person to make the choice of not using any
Microsoft products.

Since you really said very little in your post, it seems you simply want to
gripe about Microsoft.
Make your choice then live with it.

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Thx to all who contributed to the discussion. I have now discovered
that Microsoft is the top of the heap, they have no problems. Bad
software from other companies, people who have no knowledge of PC's
are to blame for any problems.

Interesting.. I cannot fathom how you comprehended that from the discussion
part of the thread.

 

[Tom [Pepper] Willett]

Ah, what great trolling you have given us.

 

[Guest]

Punch cards!
I have a stack in a shoe box somewhere. Fortran, Wat IV compiler for an IBM
360. I used that senior year HS and a year or so Jr. College (the 360 was 20
miles away at UC-Riverside, all we had we the card punches, printers, &
operators who came outside and told the people waiting on the grass that
their output was printing on the "line printer".

And then, one day, Riverside City College got a "Wang" computer with
terminals that ran (probably some version of Bill Gates') Basic operating
system...

Didn't get far in the thread, but people who just complain (although I
understand & sympathize) just don't help at all. (And this guy sounds like
he could help if he wanted to).

They call me "Rampagey", but I'm really not...

 

[Guest]

Or as we used to say here in San Diego, "Punt and send in Junior".
Sigh.