The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

[RayLopez99]

You can't truly understand what's going on unless you know the
assembly underneath.  You don't need it often but you need to be able
to understand what you see in the CPU window when things go wonky.

Once in a blue moon you might even need to write some to deal with
situations where you have to change something that you can't
recompile.

The last time that comes to mind was patching a showstopper bug in the
run-time library of the language I was using.

Actually I agree with you Loren Pechtel. I would say a 'guru' coder
would indeed know how to read and write assembly. I further agree
that "once in a blue moon" (i.e. 0.1% of the time) this skill comes in
handy, and that library functions do contain bugs.

But these cases are rare, and I would wager a professional programmer
does not need to have these skills. Yes, if you want to be a guru,
lecture, and have a potential career in academia. No, if you want to
write decent code and make decent money.

RL

 

[FromTheRafters]

OK, I take this to mean that SSL is only for encrypting the transport
layer, and therefore once on the server an email encrypted by SSL is
in plaintext, and therefore readable (at the server)? Please correct
me if I'm wrong.

That's correct. Another way to look at it is that SSL doesn't encrypt
the e-mail, it encrypts the session(s).

BTW, what programs work with Outlook to encrypt email "end to
end" (without the need for SSL)? I recall a PGP (Pretty Good Privacy)
plugin for Outlook. If you know of others please let me know. Or if
there are other email readers with end-to-end encryption, though the
problem will be the recipient has to have this email reader at their
end, and nowadays most people use Outlook it seems.

I can't help you there, but I assume that any modern e-mail client can
work with it for signing messages as well as for encrypting them.

 

[FromTheRafters]

I respectfully disagree. Though it's true that in C# there is a
Intermediate Language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Common_Intermediate_Language) that is somewhat analogous to assembly
(though at a slightly higher level), I don't think that for 99.9% of
debugging you have to know how to read it. Of course for that 0.1% it
comes in handy, but usually there are workarounds (like rewriting your
program 'from scratch' if it does not work--that often will solve any
tough, hidden bugs in it).

Assembly enjoys an intimate relationship with the hardware it is running
on - the mnemonics are in a direct relationship with the opcodes through
a lookup table. *All* other 'higher level' languages are abstractions.

Here is a sample list from an Intel instruction set.

http://home.comcast.net/~fbui/intel.html

Those mnemonic codes are just easier for humans to distinquish from one
another than are the actual strings of ones and zeroes in the actual
opcodes.

Very useful in firmware and driver software.

If you are given a binary executable, and you want to optimize the code
to fit in a certain small EEPROM, you have to use assembly because all
HLLs are less efficient - a sacrifice made so that the "programmer"
didn't have to do all the work that a "coder" has to do and can then
focus more on what he wants the program to do.

Programmers can be blissfully unaware of how their programs actually work.

 

[FromTheRafters]

[...]

I've been writing in assembler, c++ and various dialects of basic for
years. You have no real skills. Mr Windows language only programmer.
You don't even understand what your high level language statements are
actually translated too.

OMG, did he just type "basic"? As in Visual Basic?

LOL - *that's* a stretch.

And what OS? No doubt Windows.

Basic predates MS. I was programming in basic well before Microsoft's
business even started, and it was already up to version 9.

So this guy programs in Visual Basic? No further
questions Your Honor, I rest my case.

He's a well known coder and er 'freeware' programmer. )

....and he probably hates VB too.

 

[sh@dow]

Interesting. Why only on the free servers? Perhaps more "shady"
(corrupt) employees work at the free servers?

Lower salaries. Less scared to lose their jobs.
//

I still don't understand. This "hub" would have to be tapped to the
underground internet cable (if I'm not using wireless) running from my
house to the ISP? Here in Greece it is buried about a half metre
underground, usually next to the side of the paved road in a city. Is
this what you have in mind? This sort of tapping? Very interesting if
true. I've never heard or even read of this happening, and can't
imagine anybody doing this, except maybe by the secret services like the
CIA, SIS, ABIN, KGB, etc. Of course stealing wireless signals at public
hotspots is well known, but that's a different topic.

ABIN ? Do they work in Greece ?
If you live in an apartment block, it's pretty easy to access the
cables. Each floor has a box where the wires lead to.
Dunno about Greece. The wire goes from your router straight down
into the ground or does it go through a garden, a post or something like
that ?

http://hidemyass.com/

Looks interesting. And free. (Ad-driven ?)

 

[RayLopez99]

[...]

I've been writing in assembler, c++ and various dialects of basic for
years.  You have no real skills. Mr Windows language only programmer..
You don't even understand what your high level language statements are
actually translated too.

OMG, did he just type "basic"?  As in Visual Basic?

LOL - *that's* a stretch.

And what OS?  No doubt Windows.

Basic predates MS. I was programming in basic well before Microsoft's
business even started, and it was already up to version 9.

So this guy programs in Visual Basic?  No further
questions Your Honor, I rest my case.

He's a well known coder and er 'freeware' programmer. )

...and he probably hates VB too.

Thanks that's interesting. I'm curious, what did "basic" pre-Windows
or I should say pre-MSFT DOS run on? CP/M? or some such? Or more
probably some mainframe by IBM?

RL

 

[RayLopez99]

        Lower salaries. Less scared to lose their jobs.

Makes sense. I think you could make a few thousand reals or maybe
dollars selling a couple of million email addresses.

//>>         No, anyone could put a hub on your cable, anywhere between


         ABIN ? Do they work in Greece ?

ABIN is everywhere--funded by the US CIA, LOL.

        If you live in an apartment block, it's pretty easy to access the
cables. Each floor has a box where the wires lead to.
        Dunno about Greece. The wire goes from your router straight down
into the ground or does it go through a garden, a post or something like
that ?

I'm not sure how it works. But I know that the DSL of course runs off
your telephone lines, which feed into a street level splitter (?) box
that stands at the corner of my apartment, on the street, and also the
phone company has traditional concrete (or wooden if you're in the
USA) pillars / posts that the telephone wire is strung on that feed
into this box. From the box, I figure there's a splitter that must
feed into the internet cable that runs under the street? Or else why
would they dig a trench for an internet cable if they (the phone
company that runs the internet, here OTENET) can use the telephone
wires? So there must be a splitter. Maybe at the splitter box an
eavesdropper can tap a wired email communication? If they can fake
ATM cards and swipe ATM data they can also do this I guess.

        Looks interesting. And free. (Ad-driven ?)

They do have a free version but I pay, as it is faster and no ads.

RL

 

[RayLopez99]

Assembly enjoys an intimate relationship with the hardware it is running
on - the mnemonics are in a direct relationship with the opcodes through
a lookup table. *All* other 'higher level' languages are abstractions.

Here is a sample list from an Intel instruction set.

http://home.comcast.net/~fbui/intel.html

Those mnemonic codes are just easier for humans to distinquish from one
another than are the actual strings of ones and zeroes in the actual
opcodes.

Very useful in firmware and driver software.

Last line rings true: very useful for those that do driver and
firmware programming. How many programmers do that? Probably less
than 10% I reckon.

The whole point of HLL is to abstract away from opcodes--for good
reasons.

RL

 

[Dustin]

Why don't you surprise us just once instead of answering indirectly,
pretending you know the answer? Show your ignorance, and reply on
point, pointy head.

Why don't you google my posts instead. I've answered hundreds of
technical queries. I didn't work for malwarebytes because of my charming
personality, ****tard.

 

[Dustin]

Nope. Try again. The purpose of a compiler is to avoid having to
write in ASM. Google program maintainability.

Try again? Seriously? The purpose of a compiler is to make program
creation time shorter, not better, but shorter.

OMG, did he just type "basic"? As in Visual Basic? And what OS?
No doubt Windows. So this guy programs in Visual Basic? No further
questions Your Honor, I rest my case.

Basic, yes... As in TandyBASIC, ASIC, TurboBasic (a borland product).
I have very limited experience with any "visual basic" for windows or
DOS. You did know a DOS version existed, right? [g] I did **** around
with PDS 7.1 for sometime, but never got serious with it. VGA Planets
was written in it and that's what made me interested.

I posted a simple source code to something that's in pure assembler.
Hardly basic.

Nope. An entire program that runs the London Stock Exchange was
recently written in Visual C#. True, it had to be rewritten in C
(at considerable cost, after it was up and running!) at the lower
level because they were not getting the millisecond performance
demanded by high-frequency traders, but that proves my point: the
very fact that a decision was made to initially write such a massive
system in Visual C# proves that it's an enterprise-worthy higher
language. What you are doing would get you fired at most Level 1,
grade A software shops: you are trying to make yourself
indispensable and immune from getting fired by making your code
unreadable and unmaintainable. Typical Dusty Dustbin Dustin Dunce
(D4) tactics.

Did you yourself write the app? That's a whopping and loud NO isn't
it? [g]

OK D4. Look, they wrote a song about you and your coding:

You made a comment about my signature the other day, It was a lyric
snippit from a collective soul tune. It seems Shadow is right and you
might not be as old as I or he is...

 

[Dustin]

[...]

I've been writing in assembler, c++ and various dialects of
basic for years.  You have no real skills. Mr Windows language
only programmer .
You don't even understand what your high level language
statements are actually translated too.

OMG, did he just type "basic"?  As in Visual Basic?

LOL - *that's* a stretch.

And what OS?  No doubt Windows.

Basic predates MS. I was programming in basic well before
Microsoft's business even started, and it was already up to version
9.

So this guy programs in Visual Basic?  No further
questions Your Honor, I rest my case.

He's a well known coder and er 'freeware' programmer. )

...and he probably hates VB too.

Thanks that's interesting. I'm curious, what did "basic"
pre-Windows or I should say pre-MSFT DOS run on? CP/M? or some
such? Or more probably some mainframe by IBM?

CP/M came later. I wrote originally on TRS80basic, for a coco3. Not
windows. Not even close. <G> Incidently, my first PC was a 286 and it
didn't come with windows either.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

OMG, did he just type "basic"? As in Visual Basic? And what OS? No
doubt Windows. So this guy programs in Visual Basic? No further
questions Your Honor, I rest my case.

I wrote stuff in Basic long before there was a program called
"Windows".

Nope. An entire program that runs the London Stock Exchange was
recently written in Visual C#. True, it had to be rewritten in C (at
considerable cost, after it was up and running!) at the lower level
because they were not getting the millisecond performance demanded by
high-frequency traders, but that proves my point: the very fact that
a decision was made to initially write such a massive system in Visual
C# proves that it's an enterprise-worthy higher language. What you are
doing would get you fired at most Level 1, grade A software shops: you
are trying to make yourself indispensable and immune from getting
fired by making your code unreadable and unmaintainable. Typical
Dusty Dustbin Dustin Dunce (D4) tactics.

1) The fact that most everything is written in high level languages
these days doesn't change the need to understand what's going on.

2) There was nothing obscure about his code other than the use of
hardcoded values instead of constants. I have only one gripe with
it--it set up a stack that was not necessary for such a simple
program. The OS-supplied one would be good enough.

If you want some cryptic code, consider this:

X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*

Saved as a .com file it's a real, albeit trivial program. The authors
went to a lot of work to write it using only characters that anyone
can type.

If you save it out as a file expect your antivirus to scream. It's
not malicious but it gets treated as if it were--it's meant to test
that your AV system is working.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thanks that's interesting. I'm curious, what did "basic" pre-Windows
or I should say pre-MSFT DOS run on? CP/M? or some such? Or more
probably some mainframe by IBM?

My first computer was a TRS-80. It came with it's own OS.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Last line rings true: very useful for those that do driver and
firmware programming. How many programmers do that? Probably less
than 10% I reckon.

The whole point of HLL is to abstract away from opcodes--for good
reasons.

RL

It's been a long time since I've written more than a few lines of
assembly. I still feel that the ability to at least understand it is
an essential skill for a good programmer.

If you don't understand what's going on under the hood you'll never
truly know what your program is doing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually I agree with you Loren Pechtel. I would say a 'guru' coder
would indeed know how to read and write assembly. I further agree
that "once in a blue moon" (i.e. 0.1% of the time) this skill comes in
handy, and that library functions do contain bugs.

But these cases are rare, and I would wager a professional programmer
does not need to have these skills. Yes, if you want to be a guru,
lecture, and have a potential career in academia. No, if you want to
write decent code and make decent money.

I don't think a pro needs to be able to write it but being able to
read it is another matter.

Good luck figuring out what's up when you set a breakpoint on memory
access and you find yourself with a screenful of assembly when it
trips. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell such breakpoints don't
exist in .net languages, denying a valuable tool.

 

[FromTheRafters]

[...]

I've been writing in assembler, c++ and various dialects of basic for
years. You have no real skills. Mr Windows language only programmer.
You don't even understand what your high level language statements are
actually translated too.

OMG, did he just type "basic"? As in Visual Basic?

LOL - *that's* a stretch.

And what OS? No doubt Windows.

Basic predates MS. I was programming in basic well before Microsoft's
business even started, and it was already up to version 9.

So this guy programs in Visual Basic? No further
questions Your Honor, I rest my case.

He's a well known coder and er 'freeware' programmer. )

...and he probably hates VB too.

Thanks that's interesting. I'm curious, what did "basic" pre-Windows
or I should say pre-MSFT DOS run on? CP/M? or some such? Or more
probably some mainframe by IBM?

General Electric mainframe in my case, and I think it was CP/M but I'm
not sure. I can't find any information online about what OS was being
used on that system.

 

[FromTheRafters]

RayLopez99 wrote:

[...]

I've been writing in assembler, c++ and various dialects of basic for
years. You have no real skills. Mr Windows language only programmer.
You don't even understand what your high level language statements are
actually translated too.

OMG, did he just type "basic"? As in Visual Basic?

LOL - *that's* a stretch.

And what OS? No doubt Windows.

Basic predates MS. I was programming in basic well before Microsoft's
business even started, and it was already up to version 9.

So this guy programs in Visual Basic? No further
questions Your Honor, I rest my case.

He's a well known coder and er 'freeware' programmer. )

...and he probably hates VB too.

Thanks that's interesting. I'm curious, what did "basic" pre-Windows
or I should say pre-MSFT DOS run on? CP/M? or some such? Or more
probably some mainframe by IBM?

General Electric mainframe in my case, and I think it was CP/M but I'm
not sure. I can't find any information online about what OS was being
used on that system.

Okay, found it. Evidently the OS was the same as the system designation
DTSS, an early multiuser OS. BASIC was developed there and the older
versions of BASIC had support for the "old" and "new" commands I remember.

 

[FromTheRafters]

I wrote stuff in Basic long before there was a program called
"Windows".


1) The fact that most everything is written in high level languages
these days doesn't change the need to understand what's going on.

2) There was nothing obscure about his code other than the use of
hardcoded values instead of constants. I have only one gripe with
it--it set up a stack that was not necessary for such a simple
program. The OS-supplied one would be good enough.

For assembly, but it wouldn't be pure.

If you want some cryptic code, consider this:

X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*

I always liked that one because they had to use self-modification to
keep it all within the ASCII character set.

pop eax
xor eax,0x2550214f
inc eax
inc ecx
push eax
pop ebx
xor al,0x5c
push eax
pop edx
pop eax
xor eax,0x5e502834
sub [edi],esi
inc ebx
inc ebx
sub [edi],esi
jnl loc_40
inc ebp
dec ecx
inc ebx
inc ecx
push edx
sub eax,0x4e415453
inc esp
inc ecx
push edx
inc esp
sub eax,0x49544e41
push esi
dec ecx
push edx
push ebp
push ebx
sub eax,0x54534554
sub eax,0x454c4946
and [eax+ecx*2],esp

dec eax
sub ecx,[eax+0x2a]

Yep, pretty convoluted for a "Hello World" program.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I always liked that one because they had to use self-modification to
keep it all within the ASCII character set.

pop eax
xor eax,0x2550214f
inc eax
inc ecx
push eax
pop ebx
xor al,0x5c
push eax
pop edx
pop eax
xor eax,0x5e502834
sub [edi],esi
inc ebx
inc ebx
sub [edi],esi
jnl loc_40
inc ebp
dec ecx
inc ebx
inc ecx
push edx
sub eax,0x4e415453
inc esp
inc ecx
push edx
inc esp
sub eax,0x49544e41
push esi
dec ecx
push edx
push ebp
push ebx
sub eax,0x54534554
sub eax,0x454c4946
and [eax+ecx*2],esp

dec eax
sub ecx,[eax+0x2a]

Yep, pretty convoluted for a "Hello World" program.

Does self-modification even work anymore?

 

[RayLopez99]

On Sun, 22 May 2011 06:39:41 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99

I wrote stuff in Basic long before there was a program called
"Windows".

1)  The fact that most everything is written in high level languages
these days doesn't change the need to understand what's going on.

2)  There was nothing obscure about his code other than the use of
hardcoded values instead of constants.  I have only one gripe with
it--it set up a stack that was not necessary for such a simple
program.  The OS-supplied one would be good enough.

For assembly, but it wouldn't be pure.

If you want some cryptic code, consider this:

X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*

I always liked that one because they had to use self-modification to
keep it all within the ASCII character set.

pop eax
xor eax,0x2550214f
inc eax
inc ecx
push eax
pop ebx
xor al,0x5c
push eax
pop edx
pop eax
xor eax,0x5e502834
sub [edi],esi
inc ebx
inc ebx
sub [edi],esi
jnl loc_40
inc ebp
dec ecx
inc ebx
inc ecx
push edx
sub eax,0x4e415453
inc esp
inc ecx
push edx
inc esp
sub eax,0x49544e41
push esi
dec ecx
push edx
push ebp
push ebx
sub eax,0x54534554
sub eax,0x454c4946
and [eax+ecx*2],esp

dec eax
sub ecx,[eax+0x2a]

Yep, pretty convoluted for a "Hello World" program.

I don't count 11 ASCII characters. At best, I count about 7 (e.g,
"0x454c4946" presumably is some ASCII character). then again, none of
these characters repeat, so "HELLO", which has two L's, is not
present.

So the program is a bust.

RL