Tape Backup

[chrisisasavage]

I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Thanks

 

[Brian K]

I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Thanks

What do you consider "reasonably priced"? I used to use an Onstream
tape drive for backups. But it died and Onstream has been out of
business for two years. I am currently looking at external HDD for
backup. I shopped around for tape drives. I found the least expensive
being $1,099. and that was for a 10 GB tape drive.

--
________
To email me, Edit "xt" from my email address.
Brian M. Kochera
"Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"
View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

 

[dg]

I am a fan of hard disk storage used for backup, BUT, I was recently in a
computer store and saw a product marketed by ZIP that had a storage capacity
of (I think) 35-90GB. I think it was tape. Knowing ZIP products are
marketed towards the average PC user (and priced accordingly), you might
want to browse their website and see what they have to offer.

--Dan

 

[Lynn]

What do you consider "reasonably priced"? I used to use an Onstream tape drive for backups. But it died and Onstream has been

out of business for two years. I am currently looking at external HDD for backup. I shopped around for tape drives. I found
the least expensive being $1,099. and that was for a 10 GB tape drive.

Whoa, Travan tape drives are very reasonably priced ! 20/40 GB
for $299 and the tapes are $40 each.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=40-113-121&depa=0

But, I would use an external hard drive with Robocopy.

Lynn

 

[J. Clarke]

Whoa, Travan tape drives are very reasonably priced ! 20/40 GB
for $299 and the tapes are $40 each.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=40-113-121&depa=0

Travan drives are pieces of shit and the tapes cost more than 200 gig LTOs.
Tape drives are one place where you get what you pay for.

Think about it--40 bucks a pop for 20 gig tapes (forget the "20/40" crap,
they're 20 gig) vs 46 for a 40 gig disk.

 

[J. Clarke]

I am a fan of hard disk storage used for backup, BUT, I was recently in a
computer store and saw a product marketed by ZIP that had a storage
capacity
of (I think) 35-90GB. I think it was tape. Knowing ZIP products are
marketed towards the average PC user (and priced accordingly), you might
want to browse their website and see what they have to offer.

It's an Iomega product but it's not a Zip and it's not a tape, it's called a
"REV" and it's a removable-media disk. The drive is 300 bucks and the
disks cost about the same as hard disks of slightly larger capacity.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

Whoa, Travan tape drives are very reasonably priced !

They're also a pile of unreliable shite.

20/40 GB
for $299 and the tapes are $40 each.

I pity you if you think $40 per tape is "reasonably priced".

 

[Maxim S. Shatskih]

It's an Iomega product but it's not a Zip and it's not a tape, it's called a

"REV" and it's a removable-media disk. The drive is 300 bucks and the
disks cost about the same as hard disks of slightly larger capacity.

....and they also use non-standard UDF filesystem.

 

[Arno Wagner]

I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Forget it. Tape is today only cost-effective if you have huge volumes
of data in tape libraries, e.g. >100TB.

Other backup media are (my subjective list):

Medium...high reliability, medium lifetime, medium cost, high capacity:
- HDDs in external enclosures or removable drive bays

Low reliability, low lifetime, high cost, medium capacity:
- Non-professional tape (Dat, Travan)

Low reliability, low lifetime, low cost, low capacity:
- CD-R, DVD+/-R(W)

High reliability, high lifetime, medium cost, low capacity:
- MOD (3.5"), DVD-RAM

To long-term store lower volumes of critical (family photos,
diploma thesis, etc.) data use MOD or DVD-RAM.

For backups with small sizes use MOD, DVD-RAM or HDDs.
For backups with large sizes use HDDs.

Arno

 

[Irwin]

Arno,

Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived? I really don't
know. You say HDD are reliable and medium life. I have never dropped a
hard drive, but I have dropped a lot of backup CD-R, and I am guessing
that the CD-R tolerate physical abuse a lot better. Now granted, I have
burned many a Drive Image CD, only to find that they don't verify
correctly. I never did understand where exactly the problem was in
that, was it software, burner, or medium? I guess that would qualify as
unreliable. It was be pretty devastating to try to restore a CD-R image
only to find that it was invalid and was your only backup. Actually, I
think that has happened to me before, I seem to remember. Is a
validated CD-R still unreliable and short-lived?

I have some old HDD on a shelf in anti-static bags, and I don't
consider them particularly convenient. Also, how long does a HDD hold
data before it starts to corrupt?

IMF

 

[J. Clarke]

Arno,

Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived?

Whether they are or not depends on the particular chemistry--some last a
good long time when properly stored but don't count on it unless you're
sure you know what you're getting.

I really don't
know. You say HDD are reliable and medium life. I have never dropped a
hard drive, but I have dropped a lot of backup CD-R, and I am guessing
that the CD-R tolerate physical abuse a lot better.

Some kinds yes, others no. A hard disk shock-mounted in a removable tray
will take quite a lot of abuse, a laptop drive even more. One thing you
are not going to do is scratch the data off a hard disk by dragging
something across it.

Now granted, I have
burned many a Drive Image CD, only to find that they don't verify
correctly. I never did understand where exactly the problem was in
that, was it software, burner, or medium? I guess that would qualify as
unreliable. It was be pretty devastating to try to restore a CD-R image
only to find that it was invalid and was your only backup. Actually, I
think that has happened to me before, I seem to remember. Is a
validated CD-R still unreliable and short-lived?

I have some old HDD on a shelf in anti-static bags, and I don't
consider them particularly convenient. Also, how long does a HDD hold
data before it starts to corrupt?

Put those disks in inexpensive trays and they become a lot more convenient.
You'll find that disk is actually competitive with travan tape in cost and
is much more flexible in terms of options for backup strategies (you can
use anything from xcopy to high end enterprise backup software, you can
back up to RAID, can do all sorts of things that you can't do with tape)
and vastly superior in terms of transfer rate and scalability (when you
need 200 gig of backup, if there is a Travan that large available at all
it's not going to be cheap and won't use your existing tapes, but stick a
250 gig disk in a tray and it plugs right in where your old 40 came out,
with no changes at all needed.

As to how long a hard disk holds data, I don't know a specific answer to
that--I've never had one lose data that had not failed outright. Since
they depend on magnetic servo tracks for their operation they should hold
data uncorrupted as long as the drive operates.

 

[Neil Maxwell]

Arno,

Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived?

CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

I like using HD as the primary backup, then archiving the backup files
to DVDR every now and again. This gives you several levels with
different failure mechanisms, and the DVDRs don't age enough to be a
very high risk.

 

[Irwin]

Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched, while the
magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually. What happens to the CD-R
after 3 months? Do they lose data?

 

[Paul Rubin]

CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

High quality CDR (e.g. Mitsui Archive Gold) have undergone a lot of
testing and seem to be quite stable for long periods. The jury is
still out for DVDR. Hard drives contain all kinds of seals, filters,
lubricants on mechanical parts, and flash memory parameters and
firmware dependent on floating charges, all of which can decay over a
period of years. Hard drives are quite unreliable for long term
storage.

 

[Paul Rubin]

As to how long a hard disk holds data, I don't know a specific answer to
that--I've never had one lose data that had not failed outright. Since
they depend on magnetic servo tracks for their operation they should hold
data uncorrupted as long as the drive operates.

I've had numerous hard drives fail, resulting in any of data
corruption, specific sectors failing, or the whole drive failing. Any
serious backup system should include enough error
correction/redundancy to recover from sector and media failures.

 

[Al Dykes]

CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

I like using HD as the primary backup, then archiving the backup files
to DVDR every now and again. This gives you several levels with
different failure mechanisms, and the DVDRs don't age enough to be a
very high risk.

The ability to read a DVD written on one brand of burner on any other
reader scares me. I'd do a readback on at least one PC of another
brand to test it.

You also need several generations of backup, and never overwrite your
best backup. (this applies to disks and re-writable media.)

Unless you've actually tested a restore to bare iron you don't
know if your disaster recovery plan will work when you need it.

These days I do image backups to a pair of big disks in another
computer on my LAN, (these disks are synced in case one dies) and I
backup my data (mostly "My Documents") with some sync software that
keeps my laptop in sync with my desktop machine.

test test test .

 

[Al Dykes]

Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched, while the
magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually. What happens to the CD-R
after 3 months? Do they lose data?

I've never seen a reference to the magnetic domains degrading,
in the context of magnetic disk media.

The US National Standard org has a good document on CD/DVD media
lifetime issues:

http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/

 

[Irwin]

Gee, this is terrible. According to the NIST thing, I am doing so many
things wrong. I write on them with a broad permanent marker which sure
smells like it uses solvents, sometimes with fine tip markers, and I
store the recorded media horizontally for years, sometimes in their own
cases laying down piled on top of each other, but usually just back in
the spindles they came in.

Funny thing, though, I have never, ever noticed a disc lose data it
once held. Could it all just be a lot of hype? Wouldn't be the first
time. So now I have to go back and try a few. Of course, figuring out
what was supposed to be on there and whether it is still good or not
won't be easy!

Wish me luck,
Irwin

 

[Mike Redrobe]

Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched,

The vulnerable part of CDRs is actually the top surface.

Scratches on the bottom can be polished out - there's 1.2mm of
clear plastic on the underside, scratch the label size, however,
and your data is gone forever.

The top surface has only a thin layer of laquer protecting the
aluminium recording layer from the outside world.
DVDs are better in this respect, as they have 1.2mm of clear plastic
top and bottom.

So if you leave your CD on your desk or whatever, you should put
the data side - not label side - face down on the desk.
(Or put them away in cases or sleeves every time..!)

while the magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually.

In theory, yes, in practice this isn't common.

What happens
to the CD-R after 3 months? Do they lose data?

The thin layer of laquer on the label side can be worn off over
time (through mishandling, stacking CDs on top of each other etc),
causing "CD Rot" as the aluminium surface oxides.
Even the pressure of a pen is enough....

 

[Malcolm Weir]

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=40-113-121&depa=0

Travan drives are pieces of shit and the tapes cost more than 200 gig LTOs.
Tape drives are one place where you get what you pay for.

I tend to agree!

Think about it--40 bucks a pop for 20 gig tapes (forget the "20/40" crap,
they're 20 gig) vs 46 for a 40 gig disk.

Life of a 40 gigabyte disk: 5 or so years (even unpowered).

Life of a 20 gigabyte tape: more than that.

Failure mode of disk: frequently total.

Failure mode of tape: usually partial.

One size doesn't fit all.

And tape has it's place.

Malc.