should i install windows xp service pack 2

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Can i just make a correction here, "I know they're volunteers and I know
they're being watched by Big Brother." Yes we are *all* volunteers who put
in a lot of work to help the people on these newsgroups. Now i'm speaking
for myself on this one. Regardless of whether i had an MVP status or not my
contribution to the newsgroups as well as keeping my own website up to date
would be the same. Being an MVP does not make me think 'Oh great, i'm
someone important, because i'm not!' I am simply someone who has knowledge
and is prepared to pass on that knowledge to any one who asks. It is also
'extremely' rare that i simply insert a link to a microsoft knowledgebase
article in any reply i post on the newsgroup.

As to the second part of the sentence, "I know they're being watched by Big
Brother" All newsgroups are 'watched' by someone. Microsoft watch to see who
is prolific in replying to users questions. If you are prolific enough, and
give accurate information, they may consider you for an MVP award.

Now while the MVP award is recognition from Microsoft they are 'not' my
boss. I am my own boss. They have no control whatsoever over my opinions
recgarding any software i use or review, whether that be Microsoft or any
other company for that matter.

It appears that many people assume that an MVP is a Microsoft lapdog. For
the record he/she is NOT!


--
John Barnett MVP
Associate Expert
http://xphelpandsupport.mvps.org

The information in this post is supplied "as is". No warranty of any kind,
either expressed or implied, is made in relation to the accuracy,
reliability or content of this post. The Author shall not be liable for any
direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages arising out of the use
of, or inability to use, information or opinions expressed in this post..
 
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand
SP2 is much more than a firewall. It is a complete rewrite
of many thousands of lines of code to reduce security flaws
and fix bugs.

I'm well aware of that,Kerry. It is something like an 85-90%,
maybe higher, re-write of the base XP and SP1 code base.

That said, its big draw was originally security, and is to
this day. There is much more to security than SP2s firewall,
but that is the fundamental way of controlling what goes out
from your PC upon the request of some Internet source, and
what comes in, so I chose this easy-to-understand example for
those reading my post to relate to. If the SP2 firewall is no
better or worsee than SP1, why does it enjoy such a cult
status as to have it's own setup screens?

As I said last night, I have SP2 virtually in its entirety set
to install defaults (the main exception is Autoupdate, which I
have set to "ask before downloading"), so if something is
amiss, then it is the way Bill the Gates gives SP2 to his tens
of millions of customers.
The firewall while an important part of Windows security is
much the same as the firewall in SP1. It didn't magically
appear with SP2. It has been around since XP was in beta.
SP2 turns it on by default. Previously it defaulted to off.
Zone Alarm is a completely different type of firewall. It
monitors inbound and outbound traffic. If you want those
types of features then use a 3rd party app. Personally I
don't see a need to monitor outbound traffic but some
people do. It's all about choices.

I wasn't aware there was any sort of real firewall in SP1.
There is minor net security, the kind that will warn you of
potentially unsafe sites and/or attachments, but no firewall
in my definition of the term.
It doesn't matter what OS you use you will have to deal
with updates, service packs, bug fixes or whatever you want
to call it. I use a couple of different distros of Linux.
They have to be regularly updated. OS/X has many updates.
In all cases the upgrades may break older hardware or
software.

I don't doubt that a bit, based on my decades-long IT
experience. But, I whack on Microcrap because they toot their
own horn so loudly on security that it makes me do the
ROTFLMAO thing whenever I see "upgrade to SP2 for better
security" - particularly from MVPs - or I read the crapola
claims on the shrink wrap boxes in a store. Is security better
than SP1? Yes, but marginally, in my experience so far.

Again, as I said last night, the very least that Bill the
Gates could do is tighten up the words he uses to describe a
Critical Update so that his customers could make a reasonable
evaluation if the vulnerability even affects them, as well as
what the potential hazards may be. Also, he needs to do a ton
more regression testing than he does today. No matter how many
thousands of automated or human test hours goes on, it isn't
enough if KB908531 goes bump in the night for so any people,
to use that as the latest example of lack of
programming/testing skills so characteristic of the XP team.
And, no, I haven't installed it yet. I don't have a warm and
fuzzy feeling that I am even affected by what it purports to
fix, and I've not seen anyone say that the CU bug(s) have been
squashed, but then, M$ never advertises the fact that it
goofed and had to put its tail between its legs and fix the
fix.
As for MVP's I'm very new to the program but I don't feel
Microsoft breathing down my neck. I enjoy the cachet,
prestige, benefits, or whatever you want to call it but if
I ever thought it stopped me from stating my opinions I
would voluntarily opt out of the program instantly. I do
admit that I spend a bit more time on my posts since
becoming an MVP. Many people seem to take what MVP's say as
gospel so I try to make sure that I am technically correct.
Politically I've always leaned towards incorrect.
Kerry, I don't shill for companies that want my money and I'm
not nearly technically savvy enough to qualify for the MVP
program, so I have no real knowledge here. As such, I am using
the cloud chamber approach - i.e. looking for clues based on
what I read - to conclude that either M$ is monitoring you
folks, you believe they might be, or it is some NDA clause
that requires you to stay close to the company line. If it is
none of the above, then why are MVPs, looked at broadly, such
staunch supporters of King Bill?

You must obviously do what you think best, but if you want to
separate yourself from the herd I generalize about, it would
help your credibility immensely to be more forthright about
the many things M$ does wrong, in addition to those it does
right.

Others in these several M$-"sponsored" XP NGs can reach their
own conclusions about the MVPs. I'll close with this
observation: it often takes months or even years for people to
gain the respect of their peers and/or their customers, but it
only take one or two examples of lack of integrity or bias to
ruin their reputation, often permanently. Or, it may be re-
attained, but only after 3 times as long of 100% steling
character to try and rebuild trust. So, MVPs everywhere,
please take this to heart: you do nobody any good by even
remotely talking like an M$ employee, least of all,
yourselves.
 
Today John Winder commented courteously on the subject at
hand
If this true then why are we still getting patches every
month and messing up our systems? For example this article
tries to rectify problems with this month's patch:

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=918165

When will this work of patching our unpatched systems
finnish? Any ideas? We have received more patches than
the actual operating system and yet the system is still not
safe. What is going on?
John, M$'s demonstrable inability to release quality code over
decades of trying is exactly why I will /never/ turn
Autoupdate to "On." Many Critical Updates do not set a RP and
I hardly want to get up in the morning to find a dead system
that cannot be rolled back. As I've stated in the past, I set
my own RP and I lurk for a time to catch the bugs that often -
but not always - are found by the early adopters. For example,
I doubt I will ever install KB908531. I like to live life on
the edge, anyway, so I accept the risk. <grin>

As to your last paragraph, in the reality of software
development, there never is a "last patch". They go on until
the product goes out of production. Win98, despite yearly
warnings that M$ will no longer support it, still does CUs.
And, in today's highly competitive world, where programmer
time is far more expensive than computer time used to be in
the mainframe world, the profit-driven requirement is to get
the code out the door so it can be sold.

Now, to XP-specific updates: Microcrap is the world's "love to
hate" company for both good and lousy reasons. As such, it is
the target of every malcontent who wants to see how much he
can F__k with Bill the Gates by messing with is customers. I
firmly believe the same fate will befall Linux once it gains
critical mass.
 
Today kurttrail commented courteously on the subject at hand
There is no code that is perfect. All you can expect is
that it gets better.

I obviously agree, I just wish I had more confidence in M$'s
ability to make anything better.
Right now, XP is really way overdue for a new service pack,
but MS's focus is on Anal Fistula. SP2 was way overdue
when it was released, but it is better that what came
before it.

We've heard rumors of SP3 almost before SP2 was released. I,
for one, hope that Redmond does /not/ foist another Service
Pack on us, because along with all the fixes swept into the
new SP2, will come hundreds of side-effect bugs, not to
mention, upgraders will inherit problems they'd long since
fixed in the Critical Updates, or had avoided by not
installing some of them. Then, your only recourse would be a
/really/ complicate uninstall of the new SP.
The biggest insecurity with Windows is that so many people
use it, that it gives malware writers the most bang out of
their malware.

Again, I strongly agree. The market leader is always a target,
even if they don't always deserve "the treatment." The problem
is that while M$'s stock may be down which deprives Bill the
Gates - and me, as I own some - some value, they keep on a
truckin' and seem to do little visible to stop the assault on
their customers. I don't give a tinker's damn what happens to
Microcrap or Bill, I only care about myself, so the folks who
like to mess with M$ are really messing with me, albeit, I
cannot do anything about it.
 
Today John Barnett MVP commented courteously on the subject
at hand
Can i just make a correction here, "I know they're
volunteers and I know they're being watched by Big
Brother." Yes we are *all* volunteers who put in a lot of
work to help the people on these newsgroups. Now i'm
speaking for myself on this one. Regardless of whether i
had an MVP status or not my contribution to the newsgroups
as well as keeping my own website up to date would be the
same. Being an MVP does not make me think 'Oh great, i'm
someone important, because i'm not!' I am simply someone
who has knowledge and is prepared to pass on that knowledge
to any one who asks. It is also 'extremely' rare that i
simply insert a link to a microsoft knowledgebase article
in any reply i post on the newsgroup.

As to the second part of the sentence, "I know they're
being watched by Big Brother" All newsgroups are 'watched'
by someone. Microsoft watch to see who is prolific in
replying to users questions. If you are prolific enough,
and give accurate information, they may consider you for an
MVP award.

Now while the MVP award is recognition from Microsoft they
are 'not' my boss. I am my own boss. They have no control
whatsoever over my opinions recgarding any software i use
or review, whether that be Microsoft or any other company
for that matter.

It appears that many people assume that an MVP is a
Microsoft lapdog. For the record he/she is NOT!
Does Microsoft "own" this and other NGs with their name on it,
or not? If they do, they have every right to montitor what
goes on here. And, whatever the NDA statement is you signed to
become an MVP, it has no-thing to do with "importance", that
is just a title to make being a volunteer more attractive.
But, I would think that Redmond would be watching the MVPs
more closely than the customers here abouts to ensure they are
at least not hurting the company's rep. This could be done
randomly, through text search bots, many ways. I don't know
but I am skeptical that anyone who is now an MVP would ever
say another is fired, even if they were. And, there's an
infamous one here that should be canned, so maybe there's no
reason for me and some others to be so critical.

I'd just like to see more honesty and "integrity" in its
broadest definition practiced by the MVP community, that's
all.
 
All Things Mopar wrote:

I wasn't aware there was any sort of real firewall in SP1.
There is minor net security, the kind that will warn you of
potentially unsafe sites and/or attachments, but no firewall
in my definition of the term.

XP has had a firewall since the beginning. It was buried deep in the
advanced network settings. SP2 spruced it up, made it easier to find, and
turned it on by default. Google for XP Whistler beta firewall

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=XP+Whistler+beta+firewall&btnG=Search

<snipped>
 
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand
XP has had a firewall since the beginning. It was buried
deep in the advanced network settings. SP2 spruced it up,
made it easier to find, and turned it on by default. Google
for XP Whistler beta firewall

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=XP+Whistler+beta+fi
rewall&btnG=Search

Best kept secret of the war, I guess. This thread is literally
the first I've ever heard that. SP2 did make its presence much
more prominent with its own setup screens, though, that should
be worth a whoopty-do.
 
All said:
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand


Best kept secret of the war, I guess. This thread is literally
the first I've ever heard that. SP2 did make its presence much
more prominent with its own setup screens, though, that should
be worth a whoopty-do.

The firewall broke many corporate networks :-)
 
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand
The firewall broke many corporate networks :-)
Boy, that must've really endeared Bill the Gates with the
corporate big-wigs, huh? <grin>
 
Kerry said:
The firewall broke many corporate networks :-)


True, But not those whose administrators were competent, did their
homework in advance, and then properly planned the SP2 deployment.



--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin
 
Bruce said:
True, But not those whose administrators were competent, did their
homework in advance, and then properly planned the SP2 deployment.

I agree. What I meant by the post was that may have been the reason the
firewall was hidden away before SP2. By the time SP2 came out Microsoft was
desperate to show that they were trying to secure Windows so saying SP2
included the firewall was a natural. I do remember that when SP2 was
deployed it did cause a lot of problems in the corporate network world. A
lot of the problems blamed on incompatibility with legacy apps were in
reality firewall problems. I had to explain this a couple of times to the
phone support for some apps I was dealing with. They didn't believe me and
insisted it was something in SP2. A few weeks later they sent out an update
that was an explanation of how to open a couple of ports in the Windows
firewall or in another case how to disable the Windows firewall.
 
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand
I agree. What I meant by the post was that may have been
the reason the firewall was hidden away before SP2. By the
time SP2 came out Microsoft was desperate to show that they
were trying to secure Windows so saying SP2 included the
firewall was a natural.

Now, this makes sense to me, Kerry. Maybe the firewall was
there in SP1 but I didn't know it. However, to expand a bit,
to the extent that M$ does advertise the extremely improved
security of SP2, why didn't/don't they improve the firewall
and put Zone Alarm the the others out of business?

I do remember that when SP2 was
 
All said:
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand


Now, this makes sense to me, Kerry. Maybe the firewall was
there in SP1 but I didn't know it. However, to expand a bit,
to the extent that M$ does advertise the extremely improved
security of SP2, why didn't/don't they improve the firewall
and put Zone Alarm the the others out of business?

I like it as it is. I much prefer it over Zone Alarm. I don't care about
monitoring outbound traffic. The built in firewall is very effective at
stopping unwanted inbound traffic which is all I care about. It's simple to
use and configure. It doesn't bother you with unnecessary warnings. If you
also add a simple NAT router to the equation you are protected against all
but the most determined hacker. For home/Soho use this is more than
adequate. For larger networks then a proper firewall like ISA server or a
real hardware firewall is the way to go.
 
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand
I like it as it is. I much prefer it over Zone Alarm.
I don't care about monitoring outbound traffic.

I don't have ZA, I just mentioned it in the context that Bill
the Gates easily has it within his power to put the major
utility competitors out-of-business and I really don't know
why he doesn't and make tens of billions for himself in the
process).

The reason I care about outbound is two-fold: I want to know
when apps or Windoze calls home (minor) and I want to know if
some Cyber nut or spyware bot has successfully penetrated my
system and is stealing my data (big time MAJOR).
The built in
firewall is very effective at stopping unwanted inbound
traffic which is all I care about.

Think about the outbound risk if you at all believe the claims
that 80-90% of PCs are infected with spyware and may (or may
not) be logging mouse clicks, file names, PWs, etc. And, as
above, if spyware or a real troll is trying to steal your
identity or confidential data (e.g., a Word file to your
doctor with your SSAN in it), wouldn't you want to know it was
leaving?

It's simple to use and
configure. It doesn't bother you with unnecessary warnings.

I agree, but therein lies the tale for me. I'm never really
sure if SP2 is or is not warning me about traffic in either
direction. I'm still thinking about it as identity theft
warnings are increasing and will eventually do something,
although I am sure it will /not/ be Norton Internet and likely
won't be ZA, either. When I get ready, I'll ask for
recommendations.
If you also add a simple NAT router to the equation you are
protected against all but the most determined hacker. For
home/Soho use this is more than adequate. For larger
networks then a proper firewall like ISA server or a real
hardware firewall is the way to go.

I have a Netgear NAT router, which is pretty good protection
inbound but I don't think it stops outbound. Again, I
understand your point, I hope after you read my comments, you
might move somewhat in my direction. If not, not.

Cheers!
 
All said:
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand


I don't have ZA, I just mentioned it in the context that Bill
the Gates easily has it within his power to put the major
utility competitors out-of-business and I really don't know
why he doesn't and make tens of billions for himself in the
process).

The reason I care about outbound is two-fold: I want to know
when apps or Windoze calls home (minor) and I want to know if
some Cyber nut or spyware bot has successfully penetrated my
system and is stealing my data (big time MAJOR).


Think about the outbound risk if you at all believe the claims
that 80-90% of PCs are infected with spyware and may (or may
not) be logging mouse clicks, file names, PWs, etc. And, as
above, if spyware or a real troll is trying to steal your
identity or confidential data (e.g., a Word file to your
doctor with your SSAN in it), wouldn't you want to know it was
leaving?

It's simple to use and

I agree, but therein lies the tale for me. I'm never really
sure if SP2 is or is not warning me about traffic in either
direction. I'm still thinking about it as identity theft
warnings are increasing and will eventually do something,
although I am sure it will /not/ be Norton Internet and likely
won't be ZA, either. When I get ready, I'll ask for
recommendations.


I have a Netgear NAT router, which is pretty good protection
inbound but I don't think it stops outbound. Again, I
understand your point, I hope after you read my comments, you
might move somewhat in my direction. If not, not.

Cheers!

I know my pc well enough to know exactly what's happening, what's running,
and what is connected to where. If I suspect something is wrong there are
built in tools to find most of the needed info to figure out what is
happening. www.sysinternals.com has some other good ones. ZA and other
similar programs are really only useful if you know what to answer when a
warning pops up. Most people who know what to answer don't need the warning
in the first place. I can't tell you how many computers I've worked on that
were riddled with malware and all the malware was allowed in ZA. The vast
majority of people just pick allow so things keep working and they can surf.
For most people the Windows firewall works because once it's set up there is
nothing to fiddle with. Add an ant-virus and an anti-spyware resident
scanner, logon as a limited user, and most people are as safe as they'll
get.
 
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand

[snip my own comments]
I know my pc well enough to know exactly what's happening,
what's running, and what is connected to where. If I
suspect something is wrong there are built in tools to find
most of the needed info to figure out what is happening.
www.sysinternals.com has some other good ones.

Never heard of this, what is it?

BTW, Kerry, your being an MVP may have something to do with
your knowing more about your PCs goings on their the average
bear, do ya think? Yeah, and your M$ inside knowledge may
help, but probably not much. But, at the risk of blowing our
rather fragile friendship, you just gave me another data point
for my anti-MVP campaign by saying that Windoze has all the
tools you need. Wonder what all those people selling utilities
do to sleep at night, since they're screwing the paying public
for no good reason?

(I really do wish Bill the best of success, as I have a bunch
of his crap stock that I bought before he screwed up his own
company, so I actually have a vested interest in seeing my
stock recover from its current half value)

ZA and other
similar programs are really only useful if you know what to
answer when a warning pops up.

Even though I don't have ZA I still have to say "well, duh!".

No kidding, you really have to not only know what ZA is saying
but what to answer? Better to let Bill the Gates muddle on
with SP1's non-firewall? Until yesterday, I didn't even know
SP1 had a firewall!

Most people who know what to
 
All said:
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand

[snip my own comments]
I know my pc well enough to know exactly what's happening,
what's running, and what is connected to where. If I
suspect something is wrong there are built in tools to find
most of the needed info to figure out what is happening.
www.sysinternals.com has some other good ones.

Never heard of this, what is it?

It's a web site that some of the best freeware tools for use with
diagnosing, repairing, maintaining Windows you'll ever find.
 
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand
It's a web site that some of the best freeware tools for
use with diagnosing, repairing, maintaining Windows you'll
ever find.

OK, I'll bite (byte?), how'd you find it? You made it sound like
it was a part of Windoze (yeah, I saw the .com but that mighta
simply meant it was an obscure M$ web site, right?) that you,
well, somehow just knew about because, and I quote "I know my pc
well enough ..." and because, well, hells bells, you're an MVP,
dang it! Oops, my bad! There's a period between "...there are
built in tools ..." and "www.sysinternals.com ..." so I just
flat-ass blew my comment just above.
 
All said:
Today Kerry Brown commented courteously on the subject at
hand


I'm well aware of that,Kerry. It is something like an 85-90%,
maybe higher, re-write of the base XP and SP1 code base.

LMAO! And M$ rewrote another 60% of the code for Vista. It's
reinventing the (lopsided) wheel with all this rewrite of Windows, and
it's still all gonna suck too!
 
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