Semi-OT: Any Opteron/Athlon64 Workstations?

N

Nate Edel

My advisor has expressed some interest in getting a couple of AMD64 based
systems for testing; thus far, all I've found are BYO options, or
consumer-market Compaqs (Presario 6900, 8000z IIRC).

IBM and Sun (and soon HPaq) all make Opteron-based servers, but what about
"workstations." While getting some motherboards and cases works fine for me,
since we're likely to have these around a while and I'm not necessarily
going to be the one to maintain them, something we can buy preassembled (and
with better than consumer-grade quality) would be great.

For that matter, even a gamer-market machine would be an improvement over
the Presarios, if it had 4 DIMM slots.
 
R

Rob Stow

Nate said:
My advisor has expressed some interest in getting a couple of AMD64 based
systems for testing; thus far, all I've found are BYO options, or
consumer-market Compaqs (Presario 6900, 8000z IIRC).

IBM and Sun (and soon HPaq) all make Opteron-based servers, but what about
"workstations." While getting some motherboards and cases works fine for me,
since we're likely to have these around a while and I'm not necessarily
going to be the one to maintain them, something we can buy preassembled (and
with better than consumer-grade quality) would be great.

For that matter, even a gamer-market machine would be an improvement over
the Presarios, if it had 4 DIMM slots.

I have a friend who office bought a few from Xi.
URL is something like http://www.xicomputers.com.

He soon after built himself a clone of the Xi systems
for his home use. Very impressive machine. Based
on a Tyan S2885 motherboard.
 
T

Tony Hill

My advisor has expressed some interest in getting a couple of AMD64 based
systems for testing; thus far, all I've found are BYO options, or
consumer-market Compaqs (Presario 6900, 8000z IIRC).

IBM and Sun (and soon HPaq) all make Opteron-based servers, but what about
"workstations." While getting some motherboards and cases works fine for me,
since we're likely to have these around a while and I'm not necessarily
going to be the one to maintain them, something we can buy preassembled (and
with better than consumer-grade quality) would be great.

For that matter, even a gamer-market machine would be an improvement over
the Presarios, if it had 4 DIMM slots.

Fujitsu is the only big-name company I know of selling Opteron
workstations, though they only sell workstation in Europe and Asia
(I'm guessing that you're based in the US from your e-mail address).
Otherwise there are LOTS of smaller name workstation companies selling
Opteron systems. Probably the best known names out of these little
guys are Xi Computers, Polywell Technologies and Boxx Technologies:

http://www.xicomputer.com/products/welcome.asp
http://www.polywell.com/us/products/index.asp
http://www.boxxtech.com/asp/workstations.asp

Your other option might be to go to some on-line vendor that will do a
build-to-spec system.

As far as 4 DIMM slots go, you aren't likely to find that in ANY
Athlon64 (none-FX) machines. The Athlon64 only supports 2 unbuffered
DIMMs properly, though some motherboards do have 3 DIMM sockets (be
warned: many of these motherboards either won't work at all with all 3
slots filled, require that you pick and choose your memory carefully
and/or run the memory at reduced speed when all three slots are
filled). Fortunately this should change in about 2 months with the
next spin of the Athlon64 when it moves to a new socket and a 128-bit
wide memory channel.

If you want an AMD64 chip and 4 DIMM sockets now you need either an
Opteron or an Athlon64 FX setup. Beyond the three companies listed
above, there is also Alienware that focuses mainly on gaming setups
(though they do have a workstation line as well):

http://www.alienware.com/

There are probably a lot of others, but those are a few I can think of
off the top of my head.
 
R

Rubix

I'm not technically minded enough to understand why you appear to look down
on gamer machines.
They seem to require more power and graphics than most users, or am I
missing something?

Rubix
 
G

GSV Three Minds in a Can

from the said:
I'm not technically minded enough to understand why you appear to look down
on gamer machines.
They seem to require more power and graphics than most users, or am I
missing something?

Apart from top-posting you mean? 8>.

I assume the comment from Nate was 'gamer market machines' vs
'workstations'. G-M Machines may be the pinnacle of home PCs, but they
truly suck compared to professional graphics/engineering workstations
(and so they should, given what a professional WS costs).
 
?

)-()-(

GSV said:
Apart from top-posting you mean? 8>.

I assume the comment from Nate was 'gamer market machines' vs
'workstations'. G-M Machines may be the pinnacle of home PCs, but they
truly suck compared to professional graphics/engineering workstations
(and so they should, given what a professional WS costs).

Just curious, besides more Ram , what advantages do engineering workstations
have over a gamer machine ? I don't claim to know better. Just curious.
 
R

Rob Stow

)-()-( said:
GSV Three Minds in a Can wrote:




Just curious, besides more Ram , what advantages do engineering workstations
have over a gamer machine ? I don't claim to know better. Just curious.

More RAM.

Better motherboards. Eg.,
- more RAM capacity
- PCI-X instead of only PCI
- AGP Pro slots instead of plain AGP
- sometimes built in SCSI controllers

Better processors and often dualies instead of a single processor.
Eg., Opteron with double the memory bandwidth of an Athlon64.
Eg., Xeon instead of P4.

Faster hard drives, often in a RAID. Often SCSI but
a trend to SATA is growing. Redundacy and speed
are typically given priority over the huge sizes that
the latest IDE drives have.

Higher quality monitors - sometimes with resolutions 4X or
more times what a typical desktop monitor of that size would
have.

Different class of video cards. Optimized for things
like CAD instead of for games. Better multi-monitor
support or support for ultra-high res monitors.
 
T

Tony Hill

I'm not technically minded enough to understand why you appear to look down
on gamer machines.
They seem to require more power and graphics than most users, or am I
missing something?

The obvious first point is memory use. Most gaming rigs only need
512MB or 1GB of memory at this point in time. While that may be
enough for some workstations, others can easily eat up 4-8GB of
memory.

Next to that, the biggest problem with using most gaming rigs in a
workstation environment is that gaming rigs emphasize performance over
all else, including data integrity. If a bit is accidentally flipped
by cosmic rays on a gamers box, the worst-case scenario is that the
system crashes, but a more likely occurrence is that there is a minor
visual glitch that is corrected a frame or two later anyway. On a
workstation, that same sort of bit flipping can have major
consequences.

There are also big differences in I/O. Gaming rigs basically need
memory bandwidth and I/O to the video card and that's it. Hard drive
access is generally kept to a minimum (and usually only between levels
or sections of the game) and any other I/O is basically non-existent.
Workstation rigs often require LOTS of hard drive I/O, occasionally
lots of network traffic and sometimes even some custom I/O stuff.
That's why things like using a PCI-X bus have been fairly standard for
workstations for a while, but are still pretty much a non-issue for
gaming rigs.

There are other differences that are more applications specific. For
example, video cards can be very important for both, but a card that
does very well in games might do rather poorly in 3D CAD and vice
versa (the difference is shrinking these days, but it definitely still
exists).
 
S

Scott Alfter

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Just curious, besides more Ram , what advantages do engineering workstations
have over a gamer machine ? I don't claim to know better. Just curious.

They're usually built with better-quality components, instead of just the
cheapest thing that benchmark(et)ed well. You'll frequently find two
processors (your x86 choices here are Athlon MP, Xeon, and Opteron),
registered ECC memory (which offers better data integrity and larger memory
capacity), and SCSI instead of IDE storage. If they're running some flavor
of Win32, it'll usually be Win2K/XP Pro instead of Win98/Me/XP Home. If
it's built for CAD work, it'll have a graphics card optimized for the
graphics operations needed by CAD software (a different problem than 3D
gaming).

_/_ Scott Alfter (address in header doesn't receive mail)
/ v \ send mail to $firstname@$lastname.us
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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N

Nate Edel

Tony Hill said:
The obvious first point is memory use. Most gaming rigs only need
512MB or 1GB of memory at this point in time. While that may be
enough for some workstations, others can easily eat up 4-8GB of
memory.

This is the big issue for us; we're going with AMD64 because we want to test
some software we're working on on _really_ big memory configurations,
although where we're going to dig up the budget for 2GB dimms is a better
question.

For the desktops, obviously we're not going to be buying several thousand $
of ram a piece but being able to run the same kernel etc is critical, and
being able to go to 4gb would be nice.
 
N

Nate Edel

Tony Hill said:
Fujitsu is the only big-name company I know of selling Opteron
workstations, though they only sell workstation in Europe and Asia
(I'm guessing that you're based in the US from your e-mail address).

Yes, and thanks.
Otherwise there are LOTS of smaller name workstation companies selling
Opteron systems. Probably the best known names out of these little
guys are Xi Computers, Polywell Technologies and Boxx Technologies:

Thanks; I've taken a look; Xi looks promising. Boxx and Polywell look good
but are definitely aiming machines at the graphics market... $400+ video
cards are tough to justify for software development work.
Your other option might be to go to some on-line vendor that will do a
build-to-spec system.

Seen a lot of those;
As far as 4 DIMM slots go, you aren't likely to find that in ANY
Athlon64 (none-FX) machines.

Grrr. I'd been afraid of that.
filled). Fortunately this should change in about 2 months with the
next spin of the Athlon64 when it moves to a new socket and a 128-bit
wide memory channel.
If you want an AMD64 chip and 4 DIMM sockets now you need either an
Opteron or an Athlon64 FX setup.

The Opteron 146 is looking promising for that; the 64FX and the 148 are too
pricey for development boxes.

Related to that, for a dual Opteron system, some of them have DIMM slots
associated with a specific processor. If so, I'm guessing that if run as a
single, than only one of the sets of slots will be operable...?

If that's correct, is there some way other than digging through the
documentation of the specific server/motherboard to tell if you can use all
of the DIMM slots with only one processor in?
 
T

Tony Hill

Thanks; I've taken a look; Xi looks promising. Boxx and Polywell look good
but are definitely aiming machines at the graphics market... $400+ video
cards are tough to justify for software development work.

AMD does list a few other vendors on their website. If you click
through to Processors -> Opteron -> Where To Buy, or something like
that, you should be able to get a list of a 20+ on-line vendors
carrying Opteron workstations. Presumably at least ONE of them will
sell decent development systems! :>
Grrr. I'd been afraid of that.

As mentioned bellow, that problem SHOULD be fixed in about 2 months
time. At that time it should be normal to start seeing Athlon64
systems with 4 DIMM sockets. Unfortunately you've only got 4 sockets,
which from the sounds of things might still be a bit tight for your
needs (current 2 x 1GB DIMMs are cheaper than 1 x 2GB DIMMs,
especially if you can use unbuffered DIMMs).
The Opteron 146 is looking promising for that; the 64FX and the 148 are too
pricey for development boxes.

Related to that, for a dual Opteron system, some of them have DIMM slots
associated with a specific processor. If so, I'm guessing that if run as a
single, than only one of the sets of slots will be operable...?

That is correct. The memory controller is on the processor, so if the
processor isn't there, the memory just won't work.
If that's correct, is there some way other than digging through the
documentation of the specific server/motherboard to tell if you can use all
of the DIMM slots with only one processor in?

Not really, though it's usually fairly obvious by simply looking at
the motherboard. For example, take a look at the following boards:

http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/server/svr/pro_svr_detail.php?UID=484

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/thunderk8w.html


The first board (MSI K8T Master) has all 4 of it's DIMMs connected to
a single processor. As you can see, the DIMMs are all bundled
together right next to one chip. The fact that the same board is
available without a second processor socket just further goes to point
out that ONLY the top processor connects to memory.

The second board (Tyan K8W) has DIMMs attached to BOTH processors. If
you want to use the memory sockets that run beside the AGP slot, you
need a processor in the top socket. If you want to use the memory
sockets in the bottom right of the board, you need a processor in the
bottom socket.

This sort of separate of memory sockets for different processors is
pretty much standard for all dual-Opteron boards like this. If the
memory just connects to one processor, the memory sockets are all
together. If the memory connects to both processors, there will be
two different sets of memory sockets. There is a potential
performance benefit to the latter design (memory connected to both
processors) since you theoretically have twice as much memory
bandwidth. Unfortunately this performance benefit is somewhat
dependant on the operating system having some NUMA optimizations, so
you might not see a noticeable difference.
 
G

George Buyanovsky

I just built dual opteron 248 WS, it's very impressive machine.
Very stable even with HT set to 1Ghz

For one of tasks, which heavily depend on memory bandwidth, I have got
2.15 times speed up against dual Xeon2.8/533 (E505).

However the average advantage on dual Xeon2.8/533 (E505) is around
1.36 times. This statistic is based on integer code, which was
optimized for dual Xeon2.8/533(e505)/(SIMD2 integer extension)
hyper-threaded environment.

The CPU temperature after long run ~41C (room 22C)

Used components:
-----------------------------------
MB Tyan S2885 - $429
2X Opteron 248 2X$868
CPU fans FAN-A1744 - 2 X $28
Thermal compound Silver 5 - $6
4GB RAM – 4 X TWINX1024RE-3200LL 1GB 1GB – 4 X $278.00
Chenbro Mid Tower Server Case SR20505 - $86
Case fan Kingwin Case Fan F-12BB – $11
PS ENS-0246B-EPS - $78
2XRAID0 HD Maxtor 160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive 7200rpm – 2 X $103
Mitsumi 54x32x54x - $30
Vidio card GeForce FX5200 128MB - $53
Total: $3809

Notes:
The BIOS of s2885 has to be updated.

The case SR20505 is the smallest among eATX and you will have only
3X5" bays,
also it requires the extra case fans (Kingwin Case Fan F-12BB)

FD is essential to update BIOS (may be used temporary)

I need only very fast 2D output so any 8xAGP video card with AA was
sufficient.

Tyan s2885 has 8 DIMM (4 per CPU) that allows using relatively
non-expensive but very fast RAM TWINX1024RE-3200LL, also Tyan s2885
has build in SATA RAID controller.

RAM TWINX1024RE-3200LL is probably the fastest ECC/REG/DDR3200/CAS2.0
(2-3-2-6) and it works fine with s2885 however, officially Tyan does
not support CAS2.0 DDR400 (according to their support).

Regards,
George
 
N

Nate Edel

George Buyanovsky said:
I just built dual opteron 248 WS, it's very impressive machine.
Very stable even with HT set to 1Ghz

Cool. For our workstation systems, we're looking for singles, and couldn't
afford x48s but it would be interesting see if I could talk my advisor into
going for a home-built system like that rather than a more expensive and
less capable 1U from IBM.
 
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