"Screen Scrape"

T

Tony Toews

Terry Kreft said:
A. People who complain about top/bottom posting instead of learning how to
scroll <g>.

Or folks who don't trim.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
T

Tony Toews

John Vinson said:
This argument has been going on as long as Usenet has existed.

For those of us from BBSs and/or Fidonet it was defiitely trim and bottom post.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
T

Trevor Best

Michael said:
The only way around THAT is to always use the original server,
msnews.microsoft.com. Many ISPs pick up groups that have actually been
removed, for example microsoft.public.access.developerstoolkitode was
removed when someone pointed out that there was a standard of some sort
suggesting <= 14 characters per segment.

The ISPs and those who they get their feeds from claim that deleting the
group would be inapprpriate since people still post sometimes.

And then problem perpetuates itself.

aye, and the problem isn't restricted to ms.public either, I used to
take 3 different groups dedicated to Gigabyte motherboards, I solved
that one by upgrading to an Abit :)
 
L

Lyn

Thanks Terry, your response was quite concise. It seems that there are
valid pro's and con's for both top and bottom posting.

I think that the reason I usually top post is that a posting is like
replying to an email -- in emails you normally put your reply at the top of
any part of the email that you are replying to (at least in the business
world that I belonged to this was so). Indeed, mail clients that I have
used default the cursor to the top when replying, so it is easy and natural
to reply this way. And some of these mail clients are also news clients
which also put the cursor at the top. As someone pointed out, top posting
makes it easy to browse quickly through a thread via the preview pane to get
the gist without having to scroll every message.

OTOH, bottom posting forces the poster to scroll to the bottom (unless they
use Ctrl-End) and in doing so they get the opportunity to trim the original
posting which with top posting they may forget to do.

Perhaps the most important thing in this issue (which I don't think anyone
has mentioned, apologies if I am wrong), is not to MIX top and bottom
posting in a long thread! I have seen examples of this and it is most
confusing to follow the thread. I think that the rule should be that if an
established thread is either top or bottom, additional postings should
respect that -- unless the original postings have been trimmed to the point
that it doesn't matter anymore.

Thanks to all who responded, I think I have a better understanding of the
issues and will try to keep these in mind with future postings.
 
L

Lyn

Chris,
Thanks for the reference to the RFC which I have bookmarked. I think it
covers all the questions I was asking. Although as someone has pointed out
it is getting a little dated now. I was interested to note that in the
links to Comments on the RFC (which I have not yet read), the debate about
top vs bottom is alive and well, even there!
 
T

Trevor Best

Lyn said:
I think that the reason I usually top post is that a posting is like
replying to an email -- in emails you normally put your reply at the top of
any part of the email that you are replying to (at least in the business
world that I belonged to this was so). Indeed, mail clients that I have
used default the cursor to the top when replying, so it is easy and natural
to reply this way. And some of these mail clients are also news clients
which also put the cursor at the top. As someone pointed out, top posting
makes it easy to browse quickly through a thread via the preview pane to get
the gist without having to scroll every message.

Mozilla Thunderbird will pop the cursor down the bottom for you, in mail
as well as news, although this is configurable for both. It gives you a
choice of style (or a choice of which camp to upset:). The MS offerings
give you no such choice, you are expected to post in the MS style (which
when it came out was contrary to everyone else's), expect to see MS'
offices change into a Borg cube anytime soon.
Perhaps the most important thing in this issue (which I don't think anyone
has mentioned, apologies if I am wrong), is not to MIX top and bottom
posting in a long thread! I have seen examples of this and it is most
confusing to follow the thread. I think that the rule should be that if an
established thread is either top or bottom, additional postings should
respect that -- unless the original postings have been trimmed to the point
that it doesn't matter anymore.

Will never happen, as you can see you top posted, but I am commenting on
particular parts of your post, not possible with top posting unless I
word my post to include most of what you wrote.
 
T

Trevor Best

Lyn said:
Chris,
Thanks for the reference to the RFC which I have bookmarked. I think it
covers all the questions I was asking. Although as someone has pointed out
it is getting a little dated now.

So none of the 10 commandments have relevance anymore? Think I'll go out
and kill someone today and covert my neighbor's wife.
 
J

John Vinson

For those of us from BBSs and/or Fidonet it was defiitely trim and bottom post.

Tony

It was customary on ARPANet back when that consisted of twelve
university computers too.

John W. Vinson[MVP]
 
T

Terry Kreft

LOL! you got me, I didn't notice the cross-posting.

Trouble is once you start replying to a crosspost it's difficult to stop as
you don't know where people are replying from.
 
T

Terry Kreft

I thought it was covet your neighbours wife, but times change I suppose, if
you want to hide your neighbours wife then you go for it Trevor!
 
D

Darryl Kerkeslager

John Vinson said:
It was customary on ARPANet back when that consisted of twelve
university computers too.

John W. Vinson[MVP]

Omigod say it ain't so! FidoNet, yes, but ARPANet!?! I thought you people
were part of the Great Generation that was all gone <g>


Darryl Kerkeslager
 
R

Rick Brandt

Tony said:
For those of us from BBSs and/or Fidonet it was defiitely trim and
bottom post.

Tony

As with most things in life context has a lot to do with it (IMO). *Discussion*
groups with threads that go on and on (and on) should most definitely impose a
bottom-post-only protocol otherwise it's a nightmare.

One must always remember that the way *your* newsreader presents a thread to
*you* is not how it is presented to everyone else. The attitude of "If someone
wants to see what I am talking about they can look at previous posts" doesn't
cut it. A post should make (some) sense all by itself.

In *technical* groups where a question is asked and answered it simply doesn't
make enough difference to get worked up about, but I still bottom post (mostly)
because you never know when a thread will turn into a discussion.
 
L

Lyn

I was actually planning to try out Thunderbird, as soon as I can get enough
time online to download the 6 MB file over my dialup line!
 
R

Ruben Baumann

Whether one top-posts or bottom-posts - - - just simply isn't that
important!

This is one of those petty little arguments that people start when it's a
slow news day, or they got out of bed on wrong side, or they're trying to
intimidate someone new to the group. :)

Look, what's really important is that when replying to a post, is that one
follows the preference of the majority of the newsgroup one is participating
in.

The majority for the newsgroup, comp.databases.ms-access, MOSTLY top-posts,
so there I generally top-post. The majority for the newsgroup
comp.lang.python bottom-posts, so there I bottom-post. When joining a
group, I usually lurk around long enough to find out what the majority
prefers, and develop a feel for group, then I just follow along. No biggy.

I don't have a preference either way; it's not that important to me. What
DOES irritate me, A LOT, is when replies include EVERY single previous reply
in the thread. This isn't context, this is waste of my time trying to find
out whether the reply-ee has anything important to add to the discussion, or
just feeding his/her ego with a long, long, long, etc., etc., etc. post. :)

I do appreciate those people who intersperse their replies when appropriate,
especially when responding to individual points in the post. Some people
even go so far as to break this type of post into several smaller posts when
replying. Sometimes this is good, sometimes not.

The thing is, I appreciate all the answers and the help given by the
responders, and in the end, that's all that matters.

Ruben
 
J

John Vinson

Omigod say it ain't so! FidoNet, yes, but ARPANet!?! I thought you people
were part of the Great Generation that was all gone <g>

<rapping my cane on the floor> Hey you young whippersnapper, let's
have some respect for your elders here! <g>

John W. Vinson[MVP]
 
B

Bob Quintal

Lyn,

RFC1855: Netiquette Guidelines,
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html, mandates
bottom-posting.

"If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure
you summarize
the original at the top of the message, or include just enough
text of the original to give a context.
Whether one top-posts or bottom-posts - - - just simply isn't
that important!

This is one of those petty little arguments that people start
when it's a slow news day, or they got out of bed on wrong
side, or they're trying to intimidate someone new to the
group. :)

Look, what's really important is that when replying to a post,
is that one follows the preference of the majority of the
newsgroup one is participating in.

Maybe it's not important to you. My time is precious to me. I
use a reader that shows messages in a treeview. By simply
clicking on the leaf node of a thread, I can get all the
information out of the thread that's relevant, but only if the
quotations have been judiciously snipped, and the responses are
bottom posted.

The majority for the newsgroup, comp.databases.ms-access,
MOSTLY top-posts, so there I generally top-post. The majority
for the newsgroup comp.lang.python bottom-posts, so there I
bottom-post. When joining a group, I usually lurk around long
enough to find out what the majority prefers, and develop a
feel for group, then I just follow along. No biggy.

I don't accept your comment about the majourity of this group's
replies being top posted. That is not the case.


[remainder snipped]
 
L

Larry Linson

"Trevor Best" wrote
So none of the 10 command-
ments have relevance anymore?

As I understand it, the political party to which you subscribe may have some
bearing on this.
Think I'll go out and kill someone

I'd suggest you wait and do so on a day when you haven't first posted your
intention on the Internet. Even if the Commandment does not apply, there are
laws against it in every jurisdiction where I have ever visited. And, over
here, they are decidedly "Old-Testmentish" in many of the States.
today and covert my neighbor's wife.

There's a lot of "coveting" going on, but you may have a real point about
the "covert" part -- especially if the neighbor is bigger and tougher than
you are!
 
D

Dirk Goldgar

Larry Linson said:
"Trevor Best" wrote
Think I'll go out and kill someone [...]
today and covert my neighbor's wife.

There's a lot of "coveting" going on, but you may have a real point
about the "covert" part -- especially if the neighbor is bigger and
tougher than you are!

Just be sure that, no matter how much you covet her, you don't cover her
unless you do it covertly.
 

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