SATA-II hard drive or IDE?

[Superdude]

My motherboard doesn't have SATA support so I would have to get a
controller for it (I think they're like $50). Would doing this be
worth it for the increase in speed of SATA-II drives or should I just
get an IDE drive? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bob Willard]

My motherboard doesn't have SATA support so I would have to get a
controller for it (I think they're like $50). Would doing this be
worth it for the increase in speed of SATA-II drives or should I just
get an IDE drive? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Some SATA HDs are faster than some PATA HDs. Some PATA HDs are faster
than some SATA HDs. A faster bus does not guarantee faster HDs, so
you should compare individual HDs that you are considering with each
other; don't be confused by the the SATA (or SATA-II) speed hype.

{I think SATA is better than PATA, but not because of the bus speed.}

 

[Superdude]

Some SATA HDs are faster than some PATA HDs. Some PATA HDs are faster
than some SATA HDs. A faster bus does not guarantee faster HDs, so
you should compare individual HDs that you are considering with each
other; don't be confused by the the SATA (or SATA-II) speed hype.

{I think SATA is better than PATA, but not because of the bus speed.}

The P in PATA stands for parallel? I want to get the Hitachi Deskstar
250GB as it is the best rated at storagereview.com . I guess I'd like
to know if I should go with the SATA-II Hitachi or IDE version.

 

[Beemer Biker]

My motherboard doesn't have SATA support so I would have to get a
controller for it (I think they're like $50). Would doing this be
worth it for the increase in speed of SATA-II drives or should I just
get an IDE drive? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I picked up a Promise Sata300 TX2+ from newegg, under $50, OEM (not retail).
Has both SATA2 and a PATA which is what I was looking for. Also fits in
either 33 or 66 speed pci-32 slot. It is not a raid board. I also noticed
something I didnt like: when formatting a (known) defective maxtor disk, the
promise driver would pop up obscure error messages that wouldnt google. I
was using windows xp's background disk format in the disk manager. Maybe
the retail package has their own formatting software that decypers the error
messages. On another xp pro system that didnt have that controller, the
same defective maxtor filled up the windows event log with error messages
and the format never finished.

I would check into what a retail package gets you before paying the low OEM
price for an SATA.. controller that a number of companies put out.


--
=======================================================================
Beemer Biker (e-mail address removed)
http://TipsForTheComputingImpaired.com
http://ResearchRiders.org Ask about my 99'R1100RT
=======================================================================

 

[Rod Speed]

My motherboard doesn't have SATA support so I would have
to get a controller for it (I think they're like $50). Would doing
this be worth it for the increase in speed of SATA-II drives
Nope.

or should I just get an IDE drive?

That approach doesnt give you quite as much future, if
you plan to use the drive in a new system in a few years.

 

[Arno Wagner]

My motherboard doesn't have SATA support so I would have to get a
controller for it (I think they're like $50). Would doing this be
worth it for the increase in speed of SATA-II drives or should I just
get an IDE drive? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

You will not get more speed just because of the different interface.
You will get better cabeling. If this is the first or only
drive, you should probably stay with IDE.

Arno

 

[tod]

I would say to stick with IDE (ATA) for now.
Spend the $50 on more memory?

 

[Bob Davis]

The P in PATA stands for parallel?

Yes. This is the older EIDE interface using the ribbon data cables and
Molex power connectors.

I want to get the Hitachi Deskstar
250GB as it is the best rated at storagereview.com . I guess I'd like
to know if I should go with the SATA-II Hitachi or IDE version.

If you had a SATA controller I would say go with SATA, but since you don't I
would go with PATA since you have the hardware already built into the
motherboard. I don't think you'll see the difference unless you buy a WD
Raptor drive, which at 10k-rpm will outperform any PATA that I'm aware of.
As was pointed out earlier, some SATA's are faster than PATA's and vice
versa. Overall, I think it is six of one and half-dozen of the other, and
my impression is that manufacturers moved to SATA mainly because they're
cheaper to produce. It's interesting that they've been higher than PATA's
up until recently, and now they seem to be falling below PATA prices.

 

[Bob Davis]

You will not get more speed just because of the different interface.
You will get better cabeling. If this is the first or only
drive, you should probably stay with IDE.

Yes, it is less cluttering, but I've heard all along that SATA cables allow
better case air flow. However, I think if PATA ribbon cables are routed
with some thought and planning the airflow won't be seriously interrupted.
Even if it was, the fans will be producing the same airflow, and only the
pattern of flow will be altered in the case, the air exhausted just as fast.
My 2¢.

 

[Bob Davis]

That approach doesnt give you quite as much future, if
you plan to use the drive in a new system in a few years.

Do you think motherboards with no IDE controllers are imminent in the short
term? With so many IDE drives in circulation you'd think they would at
least preserve IDE for the foreseeable future. Obviously, SATA's populate
boards more now than three years ago and IDE less, but I wonder how long
before they completely disappear.

One factor here might be that used hard drives are not in big consumer
demand, and thus prices are low. I sell lots of stuff on Ebay, but never
have put HD's up for bids since the return isn't high enough. I just use
them in other ways, like for cloning.

 

[Rod Speed]

Do you think motherboards with no IDE controllers are imminent in the
short term?

I wasnt thinking so much about the short term as
how long you are likely to want to use the drive for.

With so many IDE drives in circulation you'd think they
would at least preserve IDE for the foreseeable future.

Dunno, I doubt that will happen much once sata optical
drives are as common as sata hard drives are now.

And many have more than one optical drive anyway.

Obviously, SATA's populate boards more now than three years ago and IDE
less, but I wonder how long before they completely disappear.

Yeah, its never easy to predict. Its been interesting to watch
the demise of serial and parallel ports, particularly with laptops.

A sata drive would certainly have MORE future if we
end up seeing systems without IDE ports in the time
when you still want to use that decent sized drive.

One factor here might be that used hard drives are not in big consumer
demand, and thus prices are low. I sell lots of stuff on Ebay, but never
have put HD's up for bids since the return isn't high enough. I just use
them in other ways, like for cloning.

I basically keep most stuff, cant be bothered
selling it and I dont need the money anyway.

I dont normally run anything less than XP on anything,
even the PC in the kitchen thats just a terminal on the lan,
and stopped using some of the oldest drives in systems
like that just because XP and Office wouldnt fit anymore.
Then I stopped using 1-2G drives because they were so
damned slow. Before that was replaced with the laptop,
basically for instant on and portability when bottling the
beer, with wireless, I did use an older 5G IDE drive just
because it was noticeably faster to boot and hibernate.

A 200G drive like he is talking about would be
a perfectly viable destination for images etc.

And a sata would be much more viable in removable bays
because that doesnt flout the standard. I wont use IDE
removable bays because they flout the ata standard.

sata is much better in an external case too,
you can monitor the drive temp using SMART
so that drive could end up in an external case later.

 

[J. Clarke]

Do you think motherboards with no IDE controllers are imminent in the
short
term? With so many IDE drives in circulation you'd think they would at
least preserve IDE for the foreseeable future.

I suspect that people update drives more frequently that motherboards.

Obviously, SATA's populate
boards more now than three years ago and IDE less, but I wonder how long
before they completely disappear.

One factor here might be that used hard drives are not in big consumer
demand, and thus prices are low. I sell lots of stuff on Ebay, but never
have put HD's up for bids since the return isn't high enough. I just use
them in other ways, like for cloning.

The big difficulty with SATA right now is that ATAPI support wasn't part of
the original standard and it's taken a while for the SATAPI standard to get
released and it will probably take longer for all the bugs to be out of it.
Until then, you'll see PATA slots provided with the intent that they will
be used for ATAPI devices such as CD and DVD drives and the SATA will be
used for hard disks.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. Whatever size IDE drive you get
today, in two years you'll be able to replace it with one of the same
capacity in SATA for 50 bucks, if you can find a drive that small.

 

[Curious George]

Yes. This is the older EIDE interface using the ribbon data cables and
Molex power connectors.

That's a sloppy & misleading use of "EIDE"
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/unstdEIDE.html

If you had a SATA controller I would say go with SATA, but since you don't I
would go with PATA since you have the hardware already built into the
motherboard. I don't think you'll see the difference unless you buy a WD
Raptor drive, which at 10k-rpm will outperform any PATA that I'm aware of.
As was pointed out earlier, some SATA's are faster than PATA's and vice
versa. Overall, I think it is six of one and half-dozen of the other, and
my impression is that manufacturers moved to SATA mainly because they're
cheaper to produce. It's interesting that they've been higher than PATA's
up until recently, and now they seem to be falling below PATA prices.

With Seagate, for example, the SATA version of a particular model is
optimized for performance, while the PATA version is optimized for
quiet operation, sacrificing performance. So there are some subtle
differences according to interface made by certain manufacturers. It
is correct, though, that all current 7.2k SATA & PATA drives are very
similar in most respects, including performance wise.

 

[Bob Davis]

Yeah, its never easy to predict. Its been interesting to watch
the demise of serial and parallel ports, particularly with laptops.

With parallel and serial ports, as well as IDE drives, we have the ability
to install add-in cards. I need two LTP ports, so I have a card for it.

I basically keep most stuff, cant be bothered
selling it and I dont need the money anyway.

I keep stuff that won't bring much money or are too cumbersome to ship, like
my old photo enlarger. Used HD's aren't worth much, so I keep them, thus
there are at least 15 around here. I have four ESDI drives (remember
these?) that still work, or did the last time they were used, and I can't
bring myself to throw them out.

And a sata would be much more viable in removable bays
because that doesnt flout the standard. I wont use IDE
removable bays because they flout the ata standard.

Hmmm, never had a problem with IDE mobile racks (Vipower), and have been
using them for years. What are supposed to be the issues with these?

 

[Rod Speed]

With parallel and serial ports, as well as IDE drives, we have the
ability to install add-in cards. I need two LTP ports, so I have a card
for it.

Makes more sense to go USB instead.

In fact I really only ever sell anything when someone needs it.

I keep stuff that won't bring much money or are too cumbersome to ship,
like my old photo enlarger. Used HD's aren't worth much, so I keep them,
thus there are at least 15 around here. I have four ESDI drives
(remember these?)
Yep.

that still work, or did the last time they were used, and I can't bring
myself to throw them out.

Yeah, I dont throw much out, got plenty of space.

Hmmm, never had a problem with IDE mobile racks (Vipower), and have been
using them for years.

Plenty have with IDE mobile racks.

What are supposed to be the issues with these?

Mostly errors when using them particularly with the
faster drives and less often the drive isnt visible
when it is without the rack and cable being used.

I'm not interested in flouting standards, PCs are
twitchy enough when you dont, the last thing I
need is more variables when debugging stuff
if I can do it without flouting standards.

I've never been stupid enough to overclock either.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

I suspect that people update drives more frequently that motherboards.

The big difficulty with SATA right now is that ATAPI support wasn't part
of the original standard

Of course it was.
That's like saying that IDE was not part of the SATA standard as well since
the original standard only concerned itself with the physical interface conversion.
For the device commands they referred to the t13 commitee.

and it's taken a while for the SATAPI standard

There is no such thing as a SATAPI standard.
There are features added for ATAPI that may be called SATAPI features
but they weren't necessary to make ATAPI work.
The problems were in the external PATA<->SATA conversion chips and they
had to be ironed out just as they had to with some IDE problems.

AFAICT the SATAPI term is only used currently for a diagnostic result.

Of course the name will be hijacked by users and trade alike, as usual, and several
names will exist for terms people don't understand that you'll never find back
in the official docs. Whitness SATA1, SATA2, SATA150, SATA300 and so on.
The same happened with IDE EIDE UltraATA-2 UATA-33 UDMA-2 UDMA33
SCSI-1 FastSCSI SCSI-2 UltraSCSI Ultra2 Ultra80 SCSI-3 Ultra160 etc.

 

[Bob Davis]

Makes more sense to go USB instead.

I use two legacy printers for special purposes that use parallel, a laser
with Epson FX emulation for business forms and a 20-year-old dot-matrix for
printing FedEx and other multi-leaf forms. My business software that I
wrote uses Epson emulation, and I don't want to recode 70k lines of code.
OTOH, Epson FX is still fairly common on newer printers, but these old
Brother printers work after 10 years of use and do the job.

I have some legacy hardware I refuse to get rid of, like my Northgate
keyboard that I've used for the last 18 years. I'm so attached to it I even
have a spare. With a metal case and weighing in at six lbs., with clicky
Alps keys, no modern keyboard has such a great feel. Don't get me
started....

I even have my first computer here, an Osborne 1. If you remember these you
are an old soldier like me. No, it isn't on the network.

In fact I really only ever sell anything when someone needs it.

I sell, sometimes as a justification for buying new stuff, but I do give
away much, too. Also, some older stuff still has good market value. I sold
several old Abit BE6II mobos for amazing prices after I upgraded to P4, to
mention just one example. I've sold some stuff for the same price I paid
for them.

Yeah, I dont throw much out, got plenty of space.

Doesn't make sense to keep the ESDI's, as I don't know of any PCI ESDI cards
and they go for about $10 on Ebay. Not to mention the fact that they range
from 384mb to 1.3gb and are slow. They do make great door stoppers, though,
as they much weight 10 lbs. each.

I look back on these fondly. I once had two Ultrastor controllers installed
with four ESDI's connected, two in a separate case. Made a nice space
heater in winter.

Mostly errors when using them particularly with the
faster drives and less often the drive isnt visible
when it is without the rack and cable being used.

I wonder if they're using old racks with 40-wire cables.

I've never been stupid enough to overclock either.

Amen to that.

 

[Arno Wagner]

Yes, it is less cluttering, but I've heard all along that SATA
cables allow better case air flow. However, I think if PATA ribbon
cables are routed with some thought and planning the airflow won't
be seriously interrupted. Even if it was, the fans will be
producing the same airflow, and only the pattern of flow will be
altered in the case, the air exhausted just as fast. My 2¢.

Well, it is not quite that simple. If you have a lot of normal IDE
cables, you might create air-pockest that do not get any ariflow. In
these you may then get "hot spots". Still, this can be avoided just as
you say, if there are few of these cables and take is taken that they
do not block the airflow to a hot component, like the a chipset
heatsink. Also short (45cm) rounded IDE cables, while not as good
as SATA cables, do also reduce the problem considerably.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

I use two legacy printers for special purposes that use parallel, a laser
with Epson FX emulation for business forms and a 20-year-old dot-matrix
for printing FedEx and other multi-leaf forms. My business software that
I wrote uses Epson emulation, and I don't want to recode 70k lines of
code.

OK, but thats just one printer port.

OTOH, Epson FX is still fairly common on newer printers, but these old
Brother printers work after 10 years of use and do the job.

I have some legacy hardware I refuse to get rid of, like my Northgate
keyboard that I've used for the last 18 years. I'm so attached to it I
even have a spare. With a metal case and weighing in at six lbs.,

Hate that myself, because I type with the keyboard
in my lap, sitting in a deep armchair with my feet up.
I need a decent modern cordless keyboard.

with clicky Alps keys, no modern keyboard has such a great feel. Don't
get me started....

The thing I cant get anymore is keyboards where
the lettering doesnt wear off, even with top of the
range keyboards. I just get Logitechs who claimed
that their warranty covers that and am about to
exercise that warranty now that I have got a spare
of the same keyboard.

I even have my first computer here, an Osborne 1.

I've still got the pre PC DEC mini that I bought
before PCs ever even invented, Apples etc too.

If you remember these you are an old soldier like me.

Older, actually by quite a bit.

No, it isn't on the network.

Wota wimp.

I sell, sometimes as a justification for buying new stuff, but I do
give away much, too. Also, some older stuff still has good market
value. I sold several old Abit BE6II mobos for amazing prices after
I upgraded to P4, to mention just one example. I've sold some stuff
for the same price I paid for them.

Doesn't make sense to keep the ESDI's, as I don't know of any PCI
ESDI cards and they go for about $10 on Ebay. Not to mention the
fact that they range from 384mb to 1.3gb and are slow. They do make
great door stoppers, though, as they much weight 10 lbs. each.

Yeah, I've still got the 8" hard drive from the DEC mini, even better
doorstop.

The transformers in the power supplys in the system cases in spades.
Those arent even switch mode power supplys and you get a hernia lifting
them.

Tho I used to be able to put an LS120 printer into the back of a Golf
over the very high back lip single handed. Must have been mad.

I look back on these fondly. I once had two Ultrastor controllers
installed with four ESDI's connected, two in a separate case. Made a
nice space heater in winter.

 

[Bob Davis]

OK, but thats just one printer port.

How do I attach two printers, one needing LPT1 and the other LPT3, and print
to each selectively? Don't ask me why XP put the second printer on LPT3
when the card is jumpered for LPT2, 'cause I'm sure I dunno--but it works
fine. In my business program I specify LPT1 or 3 in the code to send to the
chosen printer.

Hate that myself, because I type with the keyboard
in my lap, sitting in a deep armchair with my feet up.
I need a decent modern cordless keyboard.

I'm much more comfortable sitting upright (more or less) and typing on a
fixed keyboard, but I understand the appeal of your preference, as I have
friends that insist on cordless keyboards. I could lean back, actually,
because the cord is quite long.

The thing I cant get anymore is keyboards where
the lettering doesnt wear off, even with top of the
range keyboards. I just get Logitechs who claimed
that their warranty covers that and am about to
exercise that warranty now that I have got a spare
of the same keyboard.

I have no wearing of letters here, even though some of the more frequently
used letters are very shiny from use. Like I said, one of these keyboards
(102) was standard on a 25mhz 386 I bought from Northgate in 1988 or 1989,
and this "Ultra-T" I bought on Ebay a few years ago. They bring big $ now,
often >$100. Here's a description: http://tinyurl.com/z2lyq.
Interestingly, Ergonomic Resources (www.ergo-2000.com) has resurrected them
and is selling supposedly identical copies under the name "Avant Stellar,"
even with the Alps keys, for $189.

All new keyboards that I have tried have mushy keys with no feel, and I hate
all of them. Just my 2¢. A friend likes the old Lexmark keyboards (IBM, I
think) and uses one of those. They have a nice feel to the keys, but not
like Northgate, IMO.

I've still got the pre PC DEC mini that I bought
before PCs ever even invented, Apples etc too.

That's old. Maybe it'll be worth something as an antique someday. That's
what I keep telling myself about the Osborne while it sits on my shelf. It
hasn't been used since 1989 and one day I'll try to boot it again if I can
find on of the boot floppies.

Older, actually by quite a bit.

I'm 98, so how old are you? Okay, so you doubt it. Would you believe 58?

Wota wimp.

I think that would be a challenge for even the most astute networking gurus.

Yeah, I've still got the 8" hard drive from the DEC mini, even better
doorstop.

That's before my time. My first HD was a Miniscribe (I think) MFM 10mb.
That's MB. It was full-height like these ESDI's and cost me $1800 with a
384k cache buffer interface for the Osborne, called a "Drive C". I was
happy as a clam, and at the time I thought it was all the drive space in the
world, and made the Osborne zippy by comparison. It was a new lease on life
compared to two 5¼" 192k floppy drives.

Nope.

Never had trouble with these Vipowers over maybe 5-6 years other than two
outer units that crapped out completely, and I have about six I'm using
around here, including one with a USB2 interface. This brand is getting
very hard to find lately, though.