Run screaming from Outlook Live!

[Jim Hubbard]

I had the extreme displeasure of trying Outlook Live and have requested a
refund. Let me tell you why.....

I saw Outlook Live as one of Microsoft's first attempts at software as a
service, and thought the concept was valid. I liked the idea of "renting"
software in the hopes that someone would actually be working on improving it
and fixing known issues pretty much all of the time.

So, like an idiot, I went to the Outlook Live site and signed up. All was
seemingly well for the first few days.

It removed my trusty Outlook 2002 and replaced it with what looked like (and
was labeled as) Outlook 2003. I hated the cheesy looking blue interface,
but I liked to integration of the junk email filter as an option on the
email right-click context menu.

Well, I had a little problem. I tried to install Panda Antivirus and it
really screwed up my system. It wouldn't re-install because it won't
overwrite it's own files, and it wouldn't uninstall because it said it was
missing files. I ended up removing most of the Panda crap manually by
editing my registry and deleting Panda poop spread around my system (AMD 64
3000+ with XP Pro - with all updates).

Not satisfied that I had not sufficiently removed Panda poop completely, I
decided to install a backup of my system that I had made about 45 days ago
with Acronis True Image. Before doing so, I wanted to backup my Outlook
emails.

This was my first inclination that all was not right in the land of Outlook
Express. You see, I COULD NOT make a backup to a PST file (or any other for
that matter). I actually had to install a 60 day trial version of Outlook
2003 to be able to export my contacts and emails to a PST file. It was that
or lose them forever.

The restoration to the older image worked flawlessly. I now was back to
Outlook 2002, and I tried to open my 2003 PST files. As you can imagine,
that didn't work.

So, I went back to the Outlook Live site and re-installed Outlook Live
(which says it is 2003). Then I tried importing the PST files.
Nope.....still won't work.

Ok...I had to reply to some newsgroup posts, so I put the PST problem on
hold for a few moments and went to open the newsreader. After a little
searching of the help files in Outlook 2003 (aka Outlook Live) I found where
to click and how to add "News" to my toolbar.

I added "News" to my toolbar and went to the newsreader. All worked as
planned.

I closed Outlook Live/2003 and went to lunch. Upon my return, the "news"
toolbar button no longer functioned as planned. Instead of opening the
Newsreader, it opened a file located under System32 in Windows Explorer.

WTF? I tried again.....same thing. I deleted the button, and went to
re-add it, but now it had disappeared from the options offered in
customizing the toolbar. DAMN!

OK....time to call Outlook Live support.....

Well, it would have been just as effective to ram a lit firecracker up my
ass. Tech "support" (as expected) answered in a thick Indian accent and I
knew I was officially on the Highway to Hell.

But, being the twisted guy that I am, I decided to play
along........recording the conversation of course....

The condensed version.......

It takes 30+ minutes for her to even understand how I installed Outlook
Live/2003. Then I am told.....

1) My installation is corrupt. So we uninstall and reinstall Outlook
2003/Live and the Outlook Connector.
2) That I don't have Outlook Live installed.
3) That my version must be a trial version and the trial time limit has
expired.
4) When I objected to #3 (based in the fact that my version doesn't say
"trial" or "expired" anywhere) that the trial version doesn't tell you that
it has expired, it just starts graying out options.
5) When I say that the "File Import/Export" function is not grayed out,
am told it should not be. (WTF?)
6) That Outlook 2002 can read the PST files as they are not dependant
on the version of Outlook. I objected to this, but we uninstalled Outlook
2003/Live and re-installed Outlook 2002.
7) #6 didn't work (big surprise) and then I am told that, in fact,
Outlook 2002 will NOT read Outlook 2003/Live PST files.
8) We can load the PST files using Outlook 2003 as a folder, but cannot
import them. So we uninstall Outlook 2002 and re-install 2003. It fails to
import the PST files - but will let you look at the data as a folder.
GREAT! Al I have to do is re-type all of my contact data and any emails
that were of any importance! (jackasses)
9) Finally I am told that the version of Outlook 2003/Live that you get
with your Outlook Live subscription is a "limited version" and does not
allow the importing or exporting of PST files. What the hell kind of
service is Outlook Live/2003 that you can't back up your important emails!?
10) I demand a refund and am transferred to an English speaking
representative. She gives me a number to call (888-673-8624) and offers to
transfer me. She comes back stating that their office hours have changed
and they are now closed.
11) We never did find out why the "News" button continues to fail to
open the newsreader.

I will certainly call them tomorrow.

This product (Outlook Live/2003) is a joke. You can't dependably use
the newsreader from it (not that the majority of user would want to), but
more importantly you can't back up your contacts and emails from Outlook
Live/2003 or restore them in case of a system failure. And, surprising as
hell to me, you can only search the inbox of your Hotmail account. When you
try and search your hotmail account from Outlook Live/2003, the "Search
In..." drop-down box is grayed out!

Why the hell would you want a stripped down version of Outlook that
won't even search your paid hotmail account's folders?

My advice? If your emails are at all important (even if only important
to you) run screaming from Outlook Live/2003.

Jim Hubbard

(P.S. In case any reps from MS want to look into this it is case # ......
?? ...... DAMN! Now that email is missing too, thanks to all of the crap
that Ms. Habib had me dancing around.)

 

[Diane Poremsky [MVP]]

On the easy thing first - had you googled for "Outlook news" or something
along those lines, you'd bring up lots of posts and lots of correct answers
pretty much like this one:
---------------
To get the News command back, go back to the Programs tab in Control Panel |
Internet Options and change the default newsreader to Outlook Express. If
OE prompts you to make it your default newsreader the next time you launch
it, click the "Don't ask me again" box and then click the No button.
--------------

It's a problem that hits a lot of Outlook 2003 users and is not related to
Outlook Live usage in any way, shape or form.

As you discovered, half the stuff you were told by support is wrong. (You
shoulda came here first. ) Outlook Live is not a limited version of
Outlook 2003 - it has all the features the standard version does - the only
thing it's missing is some language tools (they aren't used by most people
and it keeps the d/l smaller).

Import and Export are BAD!!!! You should open the pst in your profile and
set it as default delivery location or you can drag items from the old pst
to the new pst - certainly no need to retype everything if import fails.

If you need a backup - find the pst file and make a copy. It's better and
easier than exporting and importing.

--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]
Author, Teach Yourself Outlook 2003 in 24 Hours
Coauthor, OneNote 2003 for Windows (Visual QuickStart Guide)
Author, Google and Other Search Engines (Visual QuickStart Guide)



Join OneNote Tips mailing list: http://www.onenote-tips.net/

 

[Jim Hubbard]

First of all.....thanks for the response.

On the easy thing first - had you googled for "Outlook news" or something
along those lines, you'd bring up lots of posts and lots of correct
answers pretty much like this one:
---------------
To get the News command back, go back to the Programs tab in Control Panel
| Internet Options and change the default newsreader to Outlook Express.
If OE prompts you to make it your default newsreader the next time you
launch it, click the "Don't ask me again" box and then click the No
button.
--------------

Googled that. Found it and did that while I was on hold with India's
finest. It worked until I closed Outlook Live/2003. But, when I re-opened
Outlook Live/2003 and clicked my "News" toolbar link, it opened a Windows
Explorer window to a folder a couple of folders below system32 (don't
remember it offhand - I'm trying to forget the experience and lower my blood
pressure a little).

It's a problem that hits a lot of Outlook 2003 users and is not related to
Outlook Live usage in any way, shape or form.

Because of the above, I'd have to disagree.

As you discovered, half the stuff you were told by support is wrong. (You
shoulda came here first. )

I agree. Lesson learned..... (BTW.....I'm writing a new kind of
newsreader. It'll piss some newsgroupies off - the kind that troll the NGs
and try and moderate everything - but it'll bring the NGs into the light
where they belong by making newsgroup access as simple as using Google.)

Outlook Live is not a limited version of Outlook 2003 - it has all the
features the standard version does - the only thing it's missing is some
language tools (they aren't used by most people and it keeps the d/l
smaller).

But my version grayed out the drop down for searching folders in my hotmail
account and the Import/Export functions just flat didn't work. Whenever I'd
try to use Import/Export I'd get a message to re-install Outlook. I did
that over and over and it never cured the problem.

Import and Export are BAD!!!! You should open the pst in your profile and
set it as default delivery location or you can drag items from the old pst
to the new pst - certainly no need to retype everything if import fails.

And, I was told this was not possible by the Microsoft "support" person.
(Who is actually "Suchetha". - Case ID # SRX050314601687 in case any
Microsoft people are interested in looking into this pathetic support
incident. )

If you need a backup - find the pst file and make a copy. It's better and
easier than exporting and importing.

I need to get all of my contacts back from the 2003 PST file. I found out
how at http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/assistance/HA011190371033.aspx -
unfortunately it involves reinstalling Outlook 2003 to do the conversion.

--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]
Author, Teach Yourself Outlook 2003 in 24 Hours
Coauthor, OneNote 2003 for Windows (Visual QuickStart Guide)
Author, Google and Other Search Engines (Visual QuickStart Guide)



Join OneNote Tips mailing list: http://www.onenote-tips.net/

The Outlook Tips site is great.

Thanks again!

 

[Diane Poremsky [MVP]]

Googled that. Found it and did that while I was on hold with India's

finest. It worked until I closed Outlook Live/2003. But, when I
re-opened Outlook Live/2003 and clicked my "News" toolbar link, it opened
a Windows Explorer window to a folder a couple of folders below system32
(don't remember it offhand - I'm trying to forget the experience and lower
my blood pressure a little).

Either outlook didn't close properly (some settings don't apply until
outlook closes) or OE wasn't set as default in IE's tools, options,
programs.

But my version grayed out the drop down for searching folders in my
hotmail account and the Import/Export functions just flat didn't work.
Whenever I'd try to use Import/Export I'd get a message to re-install
Outlook. I did that over and over and it never cured the problem.

So that I'm sure we're both on the same page... is the hotrmail account your
Outlook Live account?

It looks like the import/export engine isn't installed by default. That in
itself is normal - it's not with the trypical Outlook install either. I'll
see what i can find out about it, since it's not available as an option.
But... you really don't need import. Open the old pst using file, open and
drag the items over to the new pst. (I'd probably just move calendar, tasks,
contacts, and tasks and some recent mail.) The connector creates an ost -
that's an offiline store and is a copy of what's online so you don't need to
import it. If you decide to not renew the service, you may want to move the
files out though - autoarchive might work if export doesn't.

I need to get all of my contacts back from the 2003 PST file. I found out
how at http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/assistance/HA011190371033.aspx -
unfortunately it involves reinstalling Outlook 2003 to do the conversion.

What happened to the pst you used with your old version of outlook?

 

[Diane Poremsky [MVP]]

But my version grayed out the drop down for searching folders in my

hotmail account and the Import/Export functions just flat didn't work.
Whenever I'd try to use Import/Export I'd get a message to re-install
Outlook. I did that over and over and it never cured the problem.

BTW - which dropdown were you trying to use for searching? Because MOOL uses
an *.OST, all of the search features available to exchange users should be
in MOOL - all of the search features I tried work on the MOOL store. (My
MOOL install is an upgrade of Ol2000.) An HTTP hotmail account might not be
searchable - I can't verify as I converted mine to MOOL and MSN accounts.

(BTW2 - the connector works with 2002 - so you didn't even need to install
2003. )

 

[Brian Tillman]

This was my first inclination that all was not right in the land of
Outlook Express. You see, I COULD NOT make a backup to a PST file
(or any other for that matter). I actually had to install a 60 day
trial version of Outlook 2003 to be able to export my contacts and
emails to a PST file. It was that or lose them forever.

I would have been very surprised if you would have lost your mail My
understanding is that Outlook Live keeps things on the Hotmail server, not
on your local machine, just like Hotmail did before MS turned off the free
accounts.

This was my first inclination that all was not right in the land of
Outlook Express. You see, I COULD NOT make a backup to a PST file
(or any other for that matter). I actually had to install a 60 day
trial version of Outlook 2003 to be able to export my contacts and
emails to a PST file. It was that or lose them forever.

This was your first mistake: thinking that Outlook 2003's PST format was
compatible with Outlook 2002's and that exporting is any way to make a
backup of a PST or importing any way to restore the data later. Both issues
are mentioned time and time again here.

Ok...I had to reply to some newsgroup posts, so I put the PST problem
on hold for a few moments and went to open the newsreader. After a
little searching of the help files in Outlook 2003 (aka Outlook Live)
I found where to click and how to add "News" to my toolbar.

I added "News" to my toolbar and went to the newsreader. All worked
as planned.

I closed Outlook Live/2003 and went to lunch. Upon my return, the
"news" toolbar button no longer functioned as planned. Instead of
opening the Newsreader, it opened a file located under System32 in
Windows Explorer.
WTF? I tried again.....same thing. I deleted the button, and went to
re-add it, but now it had disappeared from the options offered in
customizing the toolbar. DAMN!

This problem, too, has been described INNUMERABLE times in this very
newsgroup and ten seconds at Google Groups would have found it for you.

OK....time to call Outlook Live support.....

Well, it would have been just as effective to ram a lit firecracker
up my ass. Tech "support" (as expected) answered in a thick Indian
accent and I knew I was officially on the Highway to Hell.

While I sympathize with this aspect of your situation, I don't really think
you were as bad off as you believe. It just takes an understanding of how
Outlook Live works to sort out your issues. The person to whom you spoke,
alas, didn't have that.

 

[Brian Tillman]

I agree. Lesson learned..... (BTW.....I'm writing a new kind of
newsreader. It'll piss some newsgroupies off - the kind that troll
the NGs and try and moderate everything - but it'll bring the NGs
into the light where they belong by making newsgroup access as simple
as using Google.)

I'd like to see that newsreader when it's done so I can compare it to the
many other newsreader that are available.

 

[Jim Hubbard]

Either outlook didn't close properly (some settings don't apply until
outlook closes) or OE wasn't set as default in IE's tools, options,
programs.

Hmmmmm..... I don't get it. Outlook 2002 has no problems with this issue.
I am back on 2002 now and use it several times a day without incident.

So that I'm sure we're both on the same page... is the hotrmail account
your Outlook Live account?

The Hotmail account was not the default account. I have a
HubbardSoftware.net account in Outlook as the default account.

It looks like the import/export engine isn't installed by default. That in
itself is normal - it's not with the trypical Outlook install either. I'll
see what i can find out about it, since it's not available as an option.
But... you really don't need import. Open the old pst using file, open and
drag the items over to the new pst. (I'd probably just move calendar,
tasks, contacts, and tasks and some recent mail.) The connector creates an
ost - that's an offiline store and is a copy of what's online so you don't
need to import it. If you decide to not renew the service, you may want to
move the files out though - autoarchive might work if export doesn't.

The problem I have to rectify today is that the PST file I saved was saved
with Outlook 2003, so Outlook 2002 won't read it. I am going to have to
re-install Outlook 2003, convert the PST, uninstall Outlook 2003 and
re-install Outlook 2002. Pain in the butt......but I've learned my lesson -
no Outlook 2003......no way......no how.

What happened to the pst you used with your old version of outlook?

I used 2003 for about a month before I had to restore to fix the Panda
Antivirus debacle. During that time I had made significant
changes/additions to the emails and contacts that I had to save from Outlook
2003 before my rebuild. That's the data I need to retrieve.

I do have a previous 2002 PST, but it is missing the contact/email
additions/changes during the last month when I was using Outlook Live/2003.

Thanks again...

Jim Hubbard

 

[Jim Hubbard]

BTW - which dropdown were you trying to use for searching? Because MOOL
uses an *.OST, all of the search features available to exchange users
should be in MOOL - all of the search features I tried work on the MOOL
store. (My MOOL install is an upgrade of Ol2000.) An HTTP hotmail account
might not be searchable - I can't verify as I converted mine to MOOL and
MSN accounts.

If you click on the "Find" button on the toolbar a line is added above the
message window that says "Look for:" and has a textbox then it says "Search
In" and shows a drop-down box with the folders you can search listed (like
"Inbox", "All Mail Folders" or "Mail I Sent") then there is a button labeled
"Find" and a final button labeled "Clear".

This is the bar I use to search my emails. In Outlook 2002, when I am in my
Hotmail inbox I can type a search word in the "Look for:" textbox and I can
choose "All Mail Folders" in the "Search In" drop down. But, under Outlook
2003/Live, when I am in my Hotmail inbox, I can still type in any search
word, but the "Search In" drop down is always grayed out (as long as I am in
any folder in my Hotmail account) and only allows me to search "Inbox".

(BTW2 - the connector works with 2002 - so you didn't even need to install
2003. )

I don't like the new Office 2003 look. That blue crappy form design just
doesn't sit well with me. But, some of my customers are now using Office
2003 and I have to assist them with their issues at times - including
Outlook 2003. This was the reason I tried Outlook Live. Otherwise I
would've been happy to stick with my Office XP Suite.

 

[Jim Hubbard]

I'd like to see that newsreader when it's done so I can compare it to the
many other newsreader that are available.

Sure thing. It will be a couple of months before the first BETA is ready.
The interface should be really simple. That's the main thing.

You won't even see the words "newsreader" or "newsgroups" (except in the
documentation) because they are not really descriptive of what newsgroups
do. They aren't full of "news". They are a medium where users can meet,
exchange ideas and, for the most part, ask for and offer assistance to one
another.

We need a SIMPLE newsreader to draw more users to the groups. Usenet is a
fantastic help to those who know how to use it. Unfortunately, not many
people know what "newsgroups" really are, and even less know how to set up a
newsreader to gain access to the vast knowledge available there.

This newsreader will try and make Usenet as easy as a Google search.

We will value simplicity over functionality. This is one place that
Microsoft Office (and others) have gone astray. Over 80% of Word users only
use 20% of the functionality. For most users, the other 80% of the
functions available just make for a confusing product.

We'd rather put out a limited functionality Usenet reader that covers only
what the 80% of users require and will actually use. The other 20% of users
are usually more technically savvy and have no problem using the more
complex newsreaders.

I'll post a link here as soon as beta 1 is ready.

 

[Jim Hubbard]

I would have been very surprised if you would have lost your mail My
understanding is that Outlook Live keeps things on the Hotmail server, not
on your local machine, just like Hotmail did before MS turned off the free
accounts.

No more free Hotmail accounts? Didn't know that....

These emails were not only from my Hotmail account. I also have a smalll
company (Hubbard Software) and retrieve emails from our email provider using
Outlook.

Hotmail (not even Outlook Live) doesn't seem to keep my Contact info. This
was the thing I needed most.

This was your first mistake: thinking that Outlook 2003's PST format was
compatible with Outlook 2002's and that exporting is any way to make a
backup of a PST or importing any way to restore the data later. Both
issues are mentioned time and time again here.

At this point, I didn't consider compatability. I palnned on re-installing
Outlook Live/2003, so compatability should not have been an issue. Upon
re-installing, Outlook Live/2003 would not import or export any data files -
including the 2003 PST files.

This problem, too, has been described INNUMERABLE times in this very
newsgroup and ten seconds at Google Groups would have found it for you.

Googled it......found it......tried it. It only worked until I restarted
Outlook Live/2003.

While I sympathize with this aspect of your situation, I don't really
think you were as bad off as you believe. It just takes an understanding
of how Outlook Live works to sort out your issues. The person to whom you
spoke, alas, didn't have that.

You can say that again.

Jim Hubbard

 

[Diane Poremsky [MVP]]

Hmmmmm..... I don't get it. Outlook 2002 has no problems with this

issue. I am back on 2002 now and use it several times a day without
incident.

Outlook 2002 installs shortcuts to the "Outlook Newsreader" (OE in drag )
on the IE tools, options, programs menu. Because it confused so many people
into thinking there really was an Outlook Newsreader, MS removed the entry
from the menu.

I do have a previous 2002 PST, but it is missing the contact/email
additions/changes during the last month when I was using Outlook
Live/2003.

Are they in the online store? If so, they will sync down to outlook 2002 if
you use the outlook connector to access the account.

--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]
Author, Teach Yourself Outlook 2003 in 24 Hours
Coauthor, OneNote 2003 for Windows (Visual QuickStart Guide)
Author, Google and Other Search Engines (Visual QuickStart Guide)



Join OneNote Tips mailing list: http://www.onenote-tips.net/

 

[Diane Poremsky [MVP]]

These emails were not only from my Hotmail account. I also have a smalll

company (Hubbard Software) and retrieve emails from our email provider
using Outlook.

Hotmail (not even Outlook Live) doesn't seem to keep my Contact info.
This was the thing I needed most.

If you set the mool account's data store to be default, all mail and
contacts (after you move them to the mool store) is stored on the hotmail
server. It makes it a little harder (you need to select the sending account)
to send new mail from the other accounts, as MSN is used as the default
account, but replies work correctly.

BTW - everything we know about MOOL is here:
http://www.slipstick.com/outlook/mool.htm