REPOST: Guru Challenge

K

Kevin Spencer

Argumentative fellow, aren't you?
Not so fast. If VS.NET is set up to use FrontPage Extensions and/or File
Sharing to communicate with IIS, then that is a VS.NET issue, not an
environment issue. You can't just rule out VS .NET and IIS without first
looking into the configuration of each.

Visual Studio uses lots and lots of things. It uses a multitude of services,
network protocols, Internet Explorer, FrontPage Server extensions, the
ENTIRE .Net Platform, and even the Operating System. So, if the problem was
with the operating system, would you say that the problem is a VS.Net issue
as well? A problem with a service does not equate to a problem with a
client. D00d!
I agree. So when I repeatedly informed Juan that hardware has been ruled
out and he repeatedly insisted that this was, in fact, my problem, I knew
that he was not someone who understands how to troubleshoot.

Your TCP/IP stack isn't hardware. It's software. And circumventing a problem
doesn't solve it.

As a suggestion, try adding a localhost entry to your machine's hosts and
lmhosts.sam files. It won't hurt to try, and it might help. And I think
Juan's recent advice would be well-taken. Look into your TCP/IP stack, if
you have the time.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
 
S

Scott M.

Apparently you need some work on reading as well, since I've already told
you that the problem was an incorrect entry in our hosts file and the
problem has been solved. The TCP/IP stack was not the problem.
 
S

Scott M.

Argumentative fellow, aren't you?

Am I? I really am just telling you the way I see it.
Visual Studio uses lots and lots of things. It uses a multitude of
services, network protocols, Internet Explorer, FrontPage Server
extensions, the ENTIRE .Net Platform, and even the Operating System. So,
if the problem was with the operating system, would you say that the
problem is a VS.Net issue as well? A problem with a service does not
equate to a problem with a client. D00d!

I think that's really pushing it a bit. If VS.NET is set to use FrontPage
Server Extensions and the file access method is set to File Share, then
changing a setting in VS.NET would fix the problem. Do we really need to
split hairs on this? The point was that Juan categorically denied that
VS.NET could in any way be the problem and a smart guy like you knows that's
not a true statement.
Your TCP/IP stack isn't hardware. It's software. And circumventing a
problem doesn't solve it.

But, if you had read Juan's "diagnosis" PRIOR to that post, he assured me
that the problem was definitely hardware and NOT software. Starting to see
my point? He kept telling me absolutely what the problem was without knowing
anything about my system/setup. And (I think for the 3rd time) the problem
was found with an incorrect entry to our hosts file, the file has been
corrected. We have not circumvented the problem, we've found it and
corrected it.
As a suggestion, try adding a localhost entry to your machine's hosts and
lmhosts.sam files. It won't hurt to try, and it might help. And I think
Juan's recent advice would be well-taken. Look into your TCP/IP stack, if
you have the time.

Again, I appreciate your help and the hosts file was, in fact, the culprit -
not the TCP/IP stack.
 
S

Scott M.

I find it really interesting though, that at this point, you are still
willing to declare with certainty what my problem is.

Let's see:

First it was absolutely hardware.
Second, you were sure I would have to rebuild the machine (before offering
any suggestions to diagnose the problem)
Then there was how in absolutely no way could VS.NET or IIS be involved.
Finally (and this is the kicker since I had already told you the problem was
found and solved) you say I've got a TCP/IP stack problem.

These are the facts Juan. This is what you said. Offering an educated
opinion is one thing. Arguing that you are right without having any
knowledge on which to base your claim is something else entirely and that's
what you've done 4 times.

My problem is solved, it was an incorrect entry in our hosts file. Thanks
to George and Kevin for providing some useful guidance on areas to look at.

I've wasted enough time on you Juan, good day.
 
J

Juan T. Llibre

re:
Maybe if you had ASKED those questions, I would have answered you
the problem was an incorrect entry in our hosts file and the problem has been solved.
The TCP/IP stack was not the problem.

At least, I read the replies to my messages,
instead of not reading them, like you do even now.

heh, heh...

I understand, Scott.
It's hard for anybody to realize just where they went wrong.

What's even harder to understand is why you
need to make this a "make or break" issue.

You have insulted me; you have flamed me;
you have *insisted* on doing both of those things.

If you think that a bad hosts entry doesn't affect
your TCP/IP stack, you're just plain mistaken.

The hosts file is an integral component of your TCP/IP stack setup.

The hosts file is used to translate human readable
computer names into dotted octet internet addresses.

The Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol (TCP/IP),
is the suite of communications protocols used to connect *hosts*
on the Internet.

The *hosts* file defines the Internet hosts, including the localhost

If you knew what the TCP/IP stack is, you must have forgotten it.

But, hey, just continue to flame me.



Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
 
G

Guest

Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's

Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How come
you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.

MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when some
grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of the
day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us who
respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck in
their ass?

Bill
 
S

Scott M.

If you equate "flame" with telling you that your ability to diagnose and
troubleshoot a problem based on the information you have in hand is poor,
then yes, I have flamed you.

If you are hurt and feel insulted because of that, then you should probably
grow up a bit and learn to take constructive criticism.

I don't need lessons on what TCP/IP stands for and what it is and I know
what the hosts file is and what it is used for. It's a little too late to
jump on the bandwagon of "I solved your problem" after the problem was
solved.
 
S

Scott M.

I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.

I also find it interesting that everyone is telling me how I have flamed
Juan, yet I have not used any profanity or called anyone names. I've simply
stated the facts and indicated that Juan has been of no help. If you folks
can't take that then PLEASE do yourselves and me a favor and just filter me
out of your NG reader. There's no need for you to waste your precious time
on someone like that.

But by all means, read Bill's messages and "humbly" accept his criticism
because all he's doing is using profanity and slinging insults around.

PS - I really hope you never mis-type a word in a public communication Bill
(I know that you never have in your life, but just a hope for the future).
Because some smart-ass might want to try to publicly point out your simple
error and then tell you that you have a corn cob stuck in your ass.
 
K

Kevin Spencer

Hi Bill,
MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post
detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored

I can only respond to this with one comment, Bill. ASP.Net is built on the
..Net platform, and employs every aspect of that platform. While I (and
others) study and research daily, I know that I at least have areas that I
am knowledgeable about and areas that I am not. As I want to be useful (and
constrained by time), I tend to skip questions that I am less knowledgable
about.

Most of us skip questions that are asked an answered on a daily basis as
well. This is not to imply that your questions fall into that category, but
simply a general explanation of why some questions are ignored. And along
the same lines as this, questions posted by people (again, not referring to
you!) who take no time to provide enough information or make their questions
clear, are often skipped.

Finally, there are a lot of questions posted here, and some just fall
through the cracks. I try to avoid the ones with many existing replies,
except for, in this case, a thread in which I am participating. But it does
happen that a question gets overlooked now and then.

If this happens to you, re-post a day later, and add "Repost:" to the title.
This often serves as a flag that an issue has been raised and not addressed,
at least as far as I'm concerned.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
 
K

Kevin Spencer

I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.

Bill is not an MVP. And you seem to be alone in your opinion that Juan is
wrong and you are right. That ought to make you suspicious of your own
opinion.

In fact, regardless of whether or not Juan is wrong, the point that is being
made is that your attitude towards Juan is wrong. These are 2 separate
issues, and they are not exclusive of one another.

When one feels wronged, there are several alternative paths one can take. In
the case of being given wrong information, as you seem to feel you were
given by Juan, you may choose to ignore the information. In fact, in the
process of problem-solving, this is the logical thing to do. If information
comes to light that is irrelvant to the solution of a problem, it is a waste
of time to give it any consideration, or to point out the wrongness of it to
the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead to a solution of the problem.

As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to solve
your problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you
information that does not lead to a solution of the problem.

From my observations, there was some mis-communication going on between you
and Juan regarding the issue. This is a common occurrance, as the only means
of communication on a public newsgroup is to post a message and wait for a
response. One does not have the convenience of being able to ask a spate of
questions back and forth in order to clarify terms, etc. I am fairly certain
that at some point both you and Juan misunderstood each other's
communications. As an impartial observer, it seems that you were both
sidetracked by a debate over these miscommunications. In any case, the
debate was not useful to the solution of your problem.

As a conjecture, it seems that both you and Juan are somewhat argumentative,
and the chemistry worked out badly. This is not a criticism of either of
you. I have been known (including by myself) to be somewhat argumentative as
well, and this is a common trait in people who enjoy participating in
discussions. It is sometimes useful, but must be constrained, or it can
easily lead to hurt feelings and relationship issues.

It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of
kindness. He does, in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help
others, and this seems (at least to me) to afford him a good bit of slack
regarding whatever personality flaws he posesses (as do we all). In fact, as
we all do indeed posess personality flaws, it behooves us all to cut one
another a certain amount of slack.

One cannot correct the mistakes and personality flaws of others. Personality
flaws lead to decisions, and the only person who can make a correction
regarding one's decisions is one's self, by making future decisions
differently, or at least making a conscious effort to do so. Once made, a
decision cannot be unmade. It is in the past, which is inalterable.

In the context of solving a problem, it is even more useless to be
sidetracked by an observation of a poor decision on the part of another
person, as I have already explained. It is, however, appropriate to take
inventory of one's own decisions in the aftermath, and see if it is possible
to make some changes with regards to future similar situations, in the
effort to avoid possible similar such occurrences in the future.

In conclusion, how about cutting Juan some slack, cutting Bill some slack,
cutting MVPs some slack, and taking an inventory of your own decisions in
this situation, to see what you may do to prevent such a situation from
bogging you down in the future? Or, at least, how about putting all this out
of your mind so that you can relax?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
 
J

Juan T. Llibre

A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced his altitude
and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted:

"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour
ago, but I don't know where I am."

The woman below replied, "You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately
30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 45 degrees north latitude
and between 9 and 60 degrees west longitude."

"You must be in Information Technology," said the balloonist.
"I am," replied the woman, "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically
correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information, and the fact
is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all.
If anything, you've delayed my trip."

The woman below responded, "You must be in Management."
"I am!" replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well", said the woman, "you don't know where you are or where you're going.
You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air.

You expect people beneath you to solve your problems.

The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in
before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault.".

---000---

I'd venture a guess that Scott is in Management.

He had a problem which he didn't know how to resolve.

Somebody tried to help him, and now it's that
person's fault that Scott can't resolve his problem.

That, at the very least is ungrateful.

If I had a problem and somebody tried to help me,
I sure wouldn't try to bash his head in for trying to help me.

I plonked Scott some time ago.



Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
 
S

Scott M.

Kevin,

Your attempts to educate me on how to understand what help is aside. the
fact is that it is one thing to offer assistance to someone (even if that
assistance turns out to be non-helpful) and another completely to argue with
someone over what kind of assistance they need, despite their repeatedly
giving information that clearly indicates that the help is heading in the
wrong direction.

What you seem to be overlooking in your assessment, is that despite Juan's
attempts at helpfulness, on four (4 - not 1, 2 or 3), but 4 separate
occasions, Juan argued with me (unprovoked., I might add - go back and read
the posts if you wish) about what my problem was.

He refused to listen to the information I was giving him about the situation
and immediately jumped to misguided conclusions (even going so far as to
predict my future when he told me that I would wind up rebuilding my
machines in the end anyway).

I'm not an idiot, and I'm not an impatient person. But, when someone is
going to repeatedly argue with me that hardware is most definitely my
problem and it makes no sense to look past that after I have provided specs.
and ruled that out, is just ignorant. That's a fact. Believe it or not,
but that's my take on it.

When someone then goes on to categorically state that the software I'm
having trouble with could, in no way, be responsible (or involved) for the
problem I'm having, also shows ignorance.

Add to that an unwavering stand that my problem isn't solved after stating
what the problem ultimately was and what the solution was for it, shows
ignorance.

Hey, you might not like that I've been honest and told Juan what my
assessment of his trouble shooting skills are and you may not agree based on
your previous experiences with Juan, but I have no such history with Juan
and despite the fact that he may very well be a nice person who gives of his
time and has been helpful to others, my take is that he's been arrogant,
argumentative and not helpful in my problem. That's my take on him and I'm
entitled to it. I've not, called him names, I've not sworn at him and I
have not stated anything that hasn't been part of this thread (which
represents the sum of my experience with him).

You disagree. That's fine, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
But, it doesn't give you or Bill or anyone else the right to tell me what my
opinion of Juan should be. Bill decided to interject with sophomoric
rhetoric that ratcheted up the discourse with his sharp wit. He doesn't
need you to shield him from my reply.

In short (and this has been my only point all along), this is not a
situation of some kind-hearted person giving of themselves, but ultimately
coming up with the wrong answer, it has been a case of someone who is so
hungry to be right, they were willing to argue the incorrectness of someone
else who knew more about the situation that they did. If you feel inclined
to respond to this post (God knows we've spent way too much time on this
already), go back and read the first 4 or 5 messages between Juan and I and
you will see that he flat out argued with me over things that he could not
have known about and that he was so sure of his solutions, he was definitive
in his stand. That's not the same thing as offering help and being wrong.

Lastly, to the point of my remarks regarding MVP's.... I know Bill is not
an MVP and I didn't say he was (again, not reading the post correctly). I
made a point in my message to Bill that MVP's seem to rally around each
other no matter what the circumstance. Is that part of the club's motto or
something?

I am not a newbie and I'm not a kid (so the dissertations on how NG's work
and what to do when presented with bogus information are not needed, thank
you). The fact that you haven't bothered to acknowledge how argumentative
Juan was during this thread BEFORE I pointed out anything negative about his
"help" shows me that it really doesn't matter what an MVP says. MVP's stick
with MVP's.

I have been a faithful contributor to the MS NG's for nearly a decade. I
myself give of my own time to help solve the problems of others. I've been
wrong in my suggestions and I've been right as well, so I don't need a
lecture in how helpfulness works. But I've NEVER told a poster what their
problem definitely was and then defended that stance when I knew nothing
about their scenario or if they were able to give me information that would
(or should) have told me that something could be ruled out.

I'm not an MVP and frankly, don't care if I would or wouldn't qualify to be
one. I don't post and reply here for that. I post and reply here to learn.
And, I have learned a great deal over the years (from you as well as many
others - MVP's and non-MVP's), but MVP's always have a way of rallying
around each other, rather than stick to doing what I believe, by and large,
they do best, providing accurate technical information. Don't be afraid to
rattle some cages and call a spade a spade from time to time. Juan was
wrong to categorically tell me what my problem was (4 times) without
accepting my (first hand) knowledge of the situation. Juan has been
arrogant and stubborn to me and provided no constructive help in the
process. That is my last word on this subject.

Thank you for your constructive help.

-Scott
 
K

Kevin Spencer

You're a very knowledgable and giving person, Juan, and I know that from
time to time I have personally picked up some very valuable information from
you. Don't sweat it. Anyone who has spent any time in this newsgroup knows
it.

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
 
S

Scott M.

He had a problem which he didn't know how to resolve.

True.
Somebody tried to help him, and now it's that
person's fault that Scott can't resolve his problem.

I've told you 4 times that the problem has been solved - what part of that
don't you get?
That, at the very least is ungrateful.

Did you not see my post to George and Kevin? Seems odd that you would say
that when I clearly thanked the folks that helped me find my problem.
Sounds a bit like you are crying sour grapes because you weren't as helpful.
There is nothing I can do to help you with that.
If I had a problem and somebody tried to help me,
I sure wouldn't try to bash his head in for trying to help me.

If that person repeatedly (say, on 4 separate occassions) told you that your
problem was something that you knew (and had previously stated) was not the
problem, would you begin to feel that that person just wanted to be heard
and wasn't actually contributing to the solution?
I plonked Scott some time ago.

Then why do you keep responding?
 
J

Juan T. Llibre

Thanks, Kevin.

It's really a shame that we have to dedicate so many posts
to explaining things which should be quite obvious, just
because someone has a distorted sense of what he is due.

The OP's flames don't bug me.

I've been here for years, before he suddenly appeared in all his "glory",
and I'll be here long after he stops wasting everybody's time with his complaints.

Drive-by shooters are of no consequence to the community.
And *that* is my last word on this thread.



Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
 
K

Kevin Spencer

You missed my point completely.
Your attempts to educate me on how to understand what help is aside. the
fact is that it is one thing to offer assistance to someone (even if that
assistance turns out to be non-helpful) and another completely to argue
with someone over what kind of assistance they need, despite their
repeatedly giving information that clearly indicates that the help is
heading in the wrong direction.

Let me extract a quote from my last post:
What you seem to be overlooking in your assessment, is that despite Juan's
attempts at helpfulness, on four (4 - not 1, 2 or 3), but 4 separate
occasions, Juan argued with me (unprovoked., I might add - go back and
read the posts if you wish) about what my problem was.

Again, reiterating from my last post:
I made a point in my message to Bill that MVP's seem to rally around each
other no matter what the circumstance. Is that part of the club's motto
or something?

Perhaps I was not clear enough in the following:

Juan contributes a great deal to the ASP.Net programming community in
general. His participation in this newsgroup is just the tip of the iceberg.
If you want to find out more, just Google "Juan T. Libre." The amount of
work he does to help others is far beyond the Microsoft requirements for the
MVP award. I would say that affords him a commensurate amount of slack, and
not a little bit of respect. Am I going to speak up on his behalf because
he's an MVP? I have actually confronted a few MVPs, reluctantly. No. I am
going to speak up on his behalf because of his generosity and committment to
help others, a quality that is rare and praiseworthy. I would do (and have
done) the same for anyone who exhibits that sort of kindness and generosity.
It so happens that the Microsoft MVP award is given to people who
voluntarily contribute to the betterment of people who participate in
communities such as this one, and therefore I do speak up on behalf of many
of them, for the same reason, not because of the award. Therefore, your
perception is in error.

Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated, and in
light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand the attitude.
Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is understandable. You should
be aware of them now. So, in light of these facts, my counsel would be the
same as it has been. Let it go. Give the guy a break.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
 
J

JIMCO Software

Kevin said:
Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated,
and in light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand
the attitude. Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is
understandable. You should be aware of them now. So, in light of
these facts, my counsel would be the same as it has been. Let it go.
Give the guy a break.

I have to add that I have corrected Juan a couple of times in this group
(without much tact on my part, I might add) and he has responded graciously
even though from his perspective, I'm just some guy who showed up here all
of a sudden.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

FrontPage add-ins for FrontPage 2000 - 2003
 
J

Juan T. Llibre

We're all here (or should be, anyway) to learn from each other.
That's the reason for peer-to-peer groups like this one to exist.

When you pointed out that I was wrong about IIS 5 isolation,
I learned something. I appreciate it when someone sets me right.

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if I am, but when someone
distorts reality to make himself look good at my expense, I take exception.

When the OP writes to Kevin that "Juan argued with me (unprovoked...)",
he tips his hand, as what I did surely cannot be classified as "arguing".

My first *suggestion* to him was about hardware. That's true.

Subsequent suggestions (within a few hours) pointed him to a solution,
but by that time he thought he was having an argument with me.

What *really* ticked him off was this comment by me :
Perhaps you haven't supplied the correct information,
or asked yourself the correct questions, or listened well enough.

I followed that comment with this :
Networked environments are particularly sensitive to naming ambiguities,
and they could lead to, precisely, the type of problem you are describing.

And, it was *precisely* a naming ambiguity
in his hosts file which was giving him problems.

In that same post, I asked him :
How about something simple, like the TCP/IP stacks ?

....and requested more information by asking :
When you run applications on the localhosts, do the sites respond quickly ?

But, he did not consider that important and did not reply.

That was *way* before ( 8 hours before )
George suggested that the OP check his hosts file

If he had been listening, instead of looking to fire back,
he could have solved his problem way earlier.

Now, of course, he has to look good, and replies to Kevin that
I have "provided no constructive help in the process" and that
"ultimately coming up with the wrong answer" was what I did.

Bollocks to that!



Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
 

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