Redmond's Con Game

[Gary S. Terhune]

We are replying to content. It's all whining.

 

[Mark]

Not really. They are getting better. The point is why not both? Most
consumers don't need everything that MS products supply at a high cost.
So let people have a choice and let these programs interact. The only
reason not to is because MS knows that these programs are good and if they
could interact with each other MS would lose control.
caver1

Are they? Well, OK, I guess that OpenOffice is better than it was when Sun
first bought it. As I recall, the first version I download was an
abomination that did everything good software wasn't supposed to do, such as
take over the desktop. The last version I downloaded, which was a v2.?,
failed to properly load a simple word doc that used outline formating.
"Getting better" isn't enough if OpenOffice is seeking to attract current
users of MS products. For that to happen, OpenOffice needs to at least equal
the MS product. OpenOffice is just fine, however, for new users with little
need to work with MS

Even if OpenOffice caught up with or exceeded Office, OpenOffice would still
need to provide user support comparable to what MS provides for its Office
product. For instance, every month or so I get an email, "Microsoft Inside
Office newsletter," that contains links to useful downloads, tutorials, and
templates. The latest includes links to "back-to-school" clipart and
templates. It also includes a "howto" that helps one create an access DB
from an excel workbook.... nothing too complicated and it's all geared
toward real endusers. One really only need to compare www.openoffice.org
with http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx to get an idea of the
real problem OpenOffice has to meet.

Is Office expensive? Dang!. <G> Seriously, I spent hundreds of dollars for
Office98 Pro way back when it first came out. I was still using Office 98 in
2006 with no problems. When a daughter went to University, I did upgrade to
Office 2003, but I'm not really sure that I "had to." My view is the package
is cheap by most real measures as the expense is easily spread out over
years. When one compares the price with, oh, say the average cost of a
console game, Office is cheap, indeed.

Still, it's not as cheap as OpenOffice. Well, maybe, in the long run, it's
cheaper than OpenOffice because MS offers practical support to real endusers
that OpenOffice and, for that matter, most GNUey & Linuxy products just fail
to provide.

Do you guys ever stop to think that the "if only MS would let us" excuse is
wearing thin? MS isn't your mother. MS works very hard to maintain their
position by providing good products and good service at a reasonable price.

 

[Alias]

We are replying to content. It's all whining.

That, sir, is a baldfaced lie.

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

That's entirely a matter of opinion. AFAIC, it's all whining, starting with
the subject.. That you include other data that, taken out of context, is
true (or not) makes no difference. Not only is context part of the message,
the author is also part of the message. You, for instance, apparently hate
MS, hate Windows, ad infinitum. Your advice to people with broken Windows or
other MS apps is to replace them with something else.

"Hey, Mister. Can you tell me how to get my Ford started?"
"Fords are CRAP. Get a Chevy."

Yeah, that's real helpful.

 

[Alias]

That's entirely a matter of opinion. AFAIC, it's all whining, starting with
the subject.. That you include other data that, taken out of context, is
true (or not) makes no difference. Not only is context part of the message,
the author is also part of the message. You, for instance, apparently hate
MS, hate Windows, ad infinitum. Your advice to people with broken Windows or
other MS apps is to replace them with something else.

Windows is a con game and you've bought into it hook, line and sinker.

"Hey, Mister. Can you tell me how to get my Ford started?"
"Fords are CRAP. Get a Chevy."

Yeah, that's real helpful.

I use XP every day and give help on the XP newsgroup quite often. How
else could I play Devil May Cry 3 if I didn't have XP?

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

If MS, Windows, Office, etc., are con games, why do you support the cons with your money? Or do you steal all your MS software? (Really, that's a question. Either you support MS or you steal their stuff. There isn't any other option.) You DO have free will in the matter.

Of course Bill Gates is a con man. 99% of all successful business owners are con men. Doesn't matter. You can include all the true facts you want to (and I'm not saying all your assertions are true -- I don't know, didn't bother to read it all), your message is that MS is an Evil Empire stealing from all of us. So what, who cares? In context, it's all whining.

FYI, whining is symptom of a persecution complex, and in your case it's a serious one. Recommend you go into seclusion (to protect yourself from the persecutors) and work on that one. Also recommend you stop feeding the sharks if you're so afraid they'll eat you.

 

[Frank]

The formula that helped Microsoft attain vast power and wealth was:

1. Make the non-standard Office Suite the soup du jour on every table.
This worked, except for the huge legal field, who continue with Word
Perfect, and the 25% who have discovered Open Office/Star Office.

2. Let 'piracy' run rampant, until everyone is 'hooked' on their drug.
Then, the continued habit will be very expensive.

3. Suppress all instances of mention of alternative OSes, better, or
less expensive products, by a campaign of media lies and distortions.

4. Buy the press, bribe the media. Insert $1 billion in advertising
and 'white papers'. Offer free stuff to independent bloggers.

As soon as some customers people in the media objected, and stated that
the Emperor has no clothes, the gig was up. PCWorld Editor has resigned
rather than succumb to bribery, Huge corporations, hundreds of
governments, tens of millions of individuals, have switched their
platforms and products to avoid mediocrity.

The OEM lock-in has crumbled. System76, Microtel, WalMart, Lenovo, Dell,
had been shipping GNU/Linux and making their fortunes. Others are
jumping onboard the gold train.

My recommendation is http://ubuntu.org and try the liveCD, then on to
the 9 to 30 minute full install.

If you had files in a previous OS on hard drive, do back them up to safe
media.

No more 'Tense Tuesdays' hoping the latest garbage from Microsoft
doesn't hose the entire drive!

You're delirious as usual and still spreading lies.
Grow up!
Frank

 

[Ron Martell]

Beta Max is a good example of what marketing can do. Quality wise Beta
Max was far superior to VHS. Most pros bought Beta Max. Good mass
marketing was the only reason VHS finally won. The consumer was duped.
caver1

One huge factor was the failure of Beta to deliver a 2 hour capacity
tape, meaning that users had to use 2 tapes in order to record a movie
broadcast.

Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP (1997 - 2008)
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca

"Anyone who thinks that they are too small to make a difference
has never been in bed with a mosquito."

 

[caver1]

Are they? Well, OK, I guess that OpenOffice is better than it was when Sun
first bought it. As I recall, the first version I download was an
abomination that did everything good software wasn't supposed to do, such as
take over the desktop. The last version I downloaded, which was a v2.?,
failed to properly load a simple word doc that used outline formating.
"Getting better" isn't enough if OpenOffice is seeking to attract current
users of MS products. For that to happen, OpenOffice needs to at least equal
the MS product. OpenOffice is just fine, however, for new users with little
need to work with MS

Even if OpenOffice caught up with or exceeded Office, OpenOffice would still
need to provide user support comparable to what MS provides for its Office
product. For instance, every month or so I get an email, "Microsoft Inside
Office newsletter," that contains links to useful downloads, tutorials, and
templates. The latest includes links to "back-to-school" clipart and
templates. It also includes a "howto" that helps one create an access DB
from an excel workbook.... nothing too complicated and it's all geared
toward real endusers. One really only need to compare www.openoffice.org
with http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx to get an idea of the
real problem OpenOffice has to meet.

Is Office expensive? Dang!. <G> Seriously, I spent hundreds of dollars for
Office98 Pro way back when it first came out. I was still using Office 98 in
2006 with no problems. When a daughter went to University, I did upgrade to
Office 2003, but I'm not really sure that I "had to." My view is the package
is cheap by most real measures as the expense is easily spread out over
years. When one compares the price with, oh, say the average cost of a
console game, Office is cheap, indeed.

Still, it's not as cheap as OpenOffice. Well, maybe, in the long run, it's
cheaper than OpenOffice because MS offers practical support to real endusers
that OpenOffice and, for that matter, most GNUey & Linuxy products just fail
to provide.

Do you guys ever stop to think that the "if only MS would let us" excuse is
wearing thin? MS isn't your mother. MS works very hard to maintain their
position by providing good products and good service at a reasonable price.

I never said MS products were no good. They are. Their marketing and
business process is totally screwed. Windows was crap when it first
started. It got better. Same with any software that is worth its salt.
And yes If you want to you can get support for OpenOffice. You just have
to look more. Whats wrong with that. I use OpenOffice all the time and
no it does't take over the desktop.
What is wrong here and it almost as bad on the Linux side, but not
quite, is there is room for both. If you want to be paying constantly,
fine. If you don't fine.
And MS does try to stop interoperability.
caver1

 

[caver1]

One huge factor was the failure of Beta to deliver a 2 hour capacity
tape, meaning that users had to use 2 tapes in order to record a movie
broadcast.

Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada

True to begin with but Beta did introduce 2 and 3 hour tapes.
caver1

 

[Mark]

I never said MS products were no good. They are. Their marketing and
business process is totally screwed. Windows was crap when it first
started. It got better. Same with any software that is worth its salt.
And yes If you want to you can get support for OpenOffice. You just have
to look more. Whats wrong with that. I use OpenOffice all the time and no
it does't take over the desktop.
What is wrong here and it almost as bad on the Linux side, but not quite,
is there is room for both. If you want to be paying constantly, fine. If
you don't fine.
And MS does try to stop interoperability.
caver1

Looks to me like MS's marketing and business process is just fine. It
certainly seems to work for both the corporation and the bulk of its
customers.

Oh, hell, Windows was OK when it first came out. So were, Lisa, MacOS and
Geos. Indeed, when one accounts for hardware limitations of those times,
then one would likely agree that all those early guis were quite remarkable.
It may be useful, however, to point out those were things that happened
decades ago and, further, those were things that were essentially "firsts."
Staroffice was already a mature product when purchased by Sun and released
to the Open Office project so there's no use in pretending its a
"from-scratch" effort.

If you're a true believer then there's nothing wrong with having to really
work at searches in efforts to find help. There are better ways to waste
one's time though. At some point, even semi-believing end-users start to
account their own time as too valuable to waste doing things not required by
the duped masses.

MS does what? I dunno' 'bout that. Indeed, I don't seem to have any big
problems operating within and without the boundaries of MS. Well... maybe I
do, since I don't think office with directly read Open Office docs, but OO
handles basic MS docs so it's not a problem, is it? Claims that Microsoft
doesn't embrace "interoperability" are specious. Indeed, I'll opine that MS
embraces interoperability to a greater extend that the Open Software Groups
that seem to most often raise the issue when it comes to something MS's
software does that they don't know how to do.

Yep... the "why can't we all get along" type of argument sounds good,
doesn't it? But doesn't that argue lose its utility when this thread was
started by a linuxy type or a Gnurd that just felt the need to hop on to a
MS forum just so he could tell how stupid we are? <G>

 

[caver1]

Looks to me like MS's marketing and business process is just fine. It
certainly seems to work for both the corporation and the bulk of its
customers.

Oh, hell, Windows was OK when it first came out. So were, Lisa, MacOS and
Geos. Indeed, when one accounts for hardware limitations of those times,
then one would likely agree that all those early guis were quite remarkable.
It may be useful, however, to point out those were things that happened
decades ago and, further, those were things that were essentially "firsts."
Staroffice was already a mature product when purchased by Sun and released
to the Open Office project so there's no use in pretending its a
"from-scratch" effort.

If you're a true believer then there's nothing wrong with having to really
work at searches in efforts to find help. There are better ways to waste
one's time though. At some point, even semi-believing end-users start to
account their own time as too valuable to waste doing things not required by
the duped masses.

True believer? in software? Get real.
I spend as much time on searches for MS products as I do Linux.
Yes linux has a way to go. But at the same time MS's want of total
control is irksome.

MS does what? I dunno' 'bout that. Indeed, I don't seem to have any big
problems operating within and without the boundaries of MS. Well... maybe I
do, since I don't think office with directly read Open Office docs, but OO
handles basic MS docs so it's not a problem, is it? Claims that Microsoft
doesn't embrace "interoperability" are specious. Indeed, I'll opine that MS
embraces interoperability to a greater extend that the Open Software Groups
that seem to most often raise the issue when it comes to something MS's
software does that they don't know how to do.

Yep... the "why can't we all get along" type of argument sounds good,
doesn't it? But doesn't that argue lose its utility when this thread was
started by a linuxy type or a Gnurd that just felt the need to hop on to a
MS forum just so he could tell how stupid we are? <G>

OOxml. As one example. > OOXML recommends Windows Metafiles or

â—
Enhanced Metafiles instead of using ISO/IEC 8632
or W3C SVG.
WMF are Windows-only proprietary formats
â—

MS wants this a standard. Standard means used by all for a base line
conformity. If Windows Metafiles are proprietary how can they be used by
all? When MS says they will defend/enforce their patents/copywrites.
This is only one example.

 

[Allen]

Mark wrote:

Still, it's not as cheap as OpenOffice. Well, maybe, in the long run, it's
cheaper than OpenOffice because MS offers practical support to real endusers
that OpenOffice and, for that matter, most GNUey & Linuxy products just fail
to provide.

Is it possible that alternatives to Office don't require as much support
as Office? MS has a way with hiding "features" in places the average
user would never think of looking, and quite often the built-in defaults
are counter to what the average user wants. I have been using Word
since 1985 (release 3, as I recall) for the simple reason that it was
the first WP program with built-in support for LaserJet printers and I
got tired of writing routines to support the LJ in other apps. My wife,
though, has been using Word for less than half that time and also has
not been using computers nearly as long as me and has constant problems
with what Word sometimes does with her documents.
Allen

 

[Mark]

Mark wrote:

Is it possible that alternatives to Office don't require as much support
as Office? MS has a way with hiding "features" in places the average user
would never think of looking, and quite often the built-in defaults are
counter to what the average user wants. I have been using Word since 1985
(release 3, as I recall) for the simple reason that it was the first WP
program with built-in support for LaserJet printers and I got tired of
writing routines to support the LJ in other apps. My wife, though, has
been using Word for less than half that time and also has not been using
computers nearly as long as me and has constant problems with what Word
sometimes does with her documents.
Allen

It's possible, but not likely. More precisely, any comparable product will,
of necessity, have approximately the same level of complexity and, thus,
will need a similar level of help and support.

MS provides support on multiple levels. For instance, I find it's useful to
suggest to neophytes that they keep the "office assistant" turned on and ask
it questions even before they go searching through the help system proper.
Many times the office assistant will provide the needed answer. If it
doesn't, however, I then point the user to the help contents. Let me give an
example... my wife's is a K12 educator, so one thing a teacher might be
interested in is making a calendar. If she asked me for help, I'd say
"Darlin', ask the office assistant something like "create a calendar" and
see what it says." Office Assistant returns a slew of appropriate answers.
Topmost is "Create a Calendar (Help using Wizards) Next listed are a number
of templates that deal with calendars. For my money, the wizard sounds like
what's needed, but I suppose others might scan the list of ready made
templates. The end of the list contains "other places to look." Among the
choices here are "clip art and media," "get answers from other
users,"research," and "Knowledge base search."

In an effort to be fair, I've installed the latest OOwin (v 2.21.) Lets see,
I can't find the equivalent of the Office Assistant. Bummer. OK, so I open
up the help system and look at the contents...looking.... looking.....
looking....oh, the heck with it, let me see if the index has a reference to
"calendar"... nope... Ok, well maybe something under "creat???."...bingo!
there are some entries under "creating" but nothing about creating a
calendar. Bummer. OK, let's do a search on "calendar" - two hits, "number
format codes" and "more controls." OK, so I've been screwing around with
OO's help and still don't have an answer. What's next? Where do I go for
help? Maybe Google?

Ok, so part of the difference I see is that MS has "anticpated" what so
called "real users" might want to do. It's a subtle difference, I think. MS
anticipates and the Open Software community mostly just "reacts." MS also
provides substantial online support, tools, and training, as a quick look at
their Office Online site (http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx )
will confirm. I can't find anything at the Open Office project that even
begins to compare.

MS also targets special interest groups. For instance, consider their site
for educators at http://www.microsoft.com/education/default.mspx. Pretty
impressive, eh? And then, of course, MS offers support for those that want
to develop products for Office as a quick look at
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/office/default.aspx shows.

I could go on, but I won't. Instead, I'll just offer to readers that there's
probably quite a few office suites that can do what Office does, at least
after a fashion. At the same time, however, I'll suggest that it's really
MS's superior support that makes the difference when productivity is the
issue. I'll also suggest that MS spends great amounts of both time and money
to ensure their support is the best it can be.





MS also expends effort on "classes" of users. For instance,

 

[Mark]

True believer? in software? Get real.
I spend as much time on searches for MS products as I do Linux.
Yes linux has a way to go. But at the same time MS's want of total control
is irksome.



OOxml. As one example. > OOXML recommends Windows Metafiles or

MS wants this a standard. Standard means used by all for a base line
conformity. If Windows Metafiles are proprietary how can they be used by
all? When MS says they will defend/enforce their patents/copywrites.
This is only one example.

That would be "true believer" as one that believes in the Open Software/GNU
doctrines.

Well, when I compare the help available for Open Office with that available
for MS Office, I find the Open Office help to be relatively "non-exsistent."
I also find that just going to the Open Office Site requires me to submit to
doses of anti-ms rhetoric. I never could figure out how that rhetoric was
supposed to solve any real problems.

If ya'll don't want MS to set any standards then tell them to bugger
off - all MS needs is some evidence that they "tried." Or is it that you
think you have a claim on their intellectual property? Or is it that you
want to limit MS to doing only what the least of their competitors can do? .

 

[caver1]

That would be "true believer" as one that believes in the Open Software/GNU
doctrines.

Well, when I compare the help available for Open Office with that available
for MS Office, I find the Open Office help to be relatively "non-exsistent."
I also find that just going to the Open Office Site requires me to submit to
doses of anti-ms rhetoric. I never could figure out how that rhetoric was
supposed to solve any real problems.

If ya'll don't want MS to set any standards then tell them to bugger
off - all MS needs is some evidence that they "tried." Or is it that you
think you have a claim on their intellectual property? Or is it that you
want to limit MS to doing only what the least of their competitors can do? .

I agree with you inpart. But when MS gives away for free what their
competitors can't because of money,only to do the others in, or want to
set as standards its,own,and then say that it is its own and no one else
is allowed to use it because it is theirs.......
Yes they have a right to their property.
Rockefellers, Morgans etc., were stopped because of this behavior.
Yes anti monopoly/trust should apply to all business.
caver1

 

[Mark]

I agree with you inpart. But when MS gives away for free what their
competitors can't because of money,only to do the others in, or want to
set as standards its,own,and then say that it is its own and no one else
is allowed to use it because it is theirs.......
Yes they have a right to their property.
Rockefellers, Morgans etc., were stopped because of this behavior.
Yes anti monopoly/trust should apply to all business.
caver1

What does MS give away for free? I know they've got some freebies, but I
can't think of any that would affect linux one way or another. It does seem
odd that you'd complain about "free" stuff when the whole thing behind
linux and OO is that it's free. At any rate, I know that MS Office isn't
free.

MS does, as a quick look at their developer's site at
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx will show, provide very good
support to those that want to program for their platforms. Almost everything
needed is "free," but a subscription gets developers the latest tools and
early platform releases to use in testing. MS makes it such that there's no
really good reason one can't develop applications for their platforms.
Developers should be aware, however, that there are already a number of good
office suites available.

I'm also of the opinion that linux owes much of its popularity to MS since
I've doubts that PCs would so common unless a company like MS had made it
easy for every household to have a computer. If you doubt it, then take a
look at Apple and their relationship with those that would clone their
systems.

 

[caver1]

What does MS give away for free? I know they've got some freebies, but I
can't think of any that would affect linux one way or another. It does seem
odd that you'd complain about "free" stuff when the whole thing behind
linux and OO is that it's free. At any rate, I know that MS Office isn't
free.

You either have to go to other countries or back in time awhile for the
free. Once MS tied/s up market/did away with the competition
prices/requirements start to rise rapidly. Its not Linux that MS did
away with but it does affect Linux. The MS Linspire agreement is one
glaring example. IE is another give it away free to do competitor in
then tie it into the OS so it cannot be removed.

I'm also of the opinion that linux owes much of its popularity to MS since
I've doubts that PCs would so common unless a company like MS had made it
easy for every household to have a computer. If you doubt it, then take a
look at Apple and their relationship with those that would clone their
systems.

I agree. MS has good products. The main security flaws they have is
because MS products are made so most people can use them. Apple is a
worse tyrant. But Apple and MS has learned that they have to let each
other in.
caver1